Christless Christianity

[Christless Christianity]

No. I believe that people are basically people. That is, I believe that we are all biological creatures and as such have innate impulses (the need to made, socialize, etc.) and that among those impulses are some of the same impulses that we find in other biological entities (aggression either as a form of determining the hierarchy with regards to mating rights or as a means of claiming and protecting territory, etc.). All of these are in fact natural throughout the biological life cycles on this planet. Even plants have forms of behaviours that cause them to compete and struggle for space where they can get the most sunlight.

The problem that humans have which does not plague other biological creatures (as far as we know) is the ability to reason. This function makes us aware of ourselves and others around us on a scale of which cattle, for example, are incapable. Reason shows us that certain behaviours (e.g. caring for the weak) are beneficial to the community at large even though it may in fact be against our instinctive inclinations.

The conflict arises when things born out of reason (e.g. social contracts) comes into conflict with our innate natural instincts (e.g the drive to dominate). And so we devise very clever ways of accomplishing that which is innate yet in a manner that also seems reasonable (e.g. a politician who claims to serve the people but who in fact has a deep need for power).

There is not a single behaviour in homo sapies sapiens that is not directly related to functions of the brain. Not one. Logically, if the problem with man is a "spiritual" condition then neurology has nothing to do with the matter. And yet, that which people have called spiritual in the past has proven to be simply biological. At one time someone with epilepsy was considered "possessed" and there are other mental illnesses that carried the same stigma. Today, we give such people medications and more often than not they are able to live normal lives. Clearly the "spiritual" has been trumped by scientific breakthroughs.

And so will human behaviour. As we come to understand the human brain more and more, we will effectively identify those parts of the brain that are "a-moral" or detrimental to the individual and the community (e.g. bloodlust) and simply treat it like any other biological problem.

Besides the fact that the entire Christian faith is without a foundation, I have a very big problem with its claim that Christians are "a new creature; the old has passed, the new has come." This is patently false. Not one single Christian has become "new" in that they are now perfected and incapable of sinning. They are just as full of the same impulses as they ever had but they are more disciplined and self aware and therefore better controlled. But they are not cured. Indeed, there is no cure for the problem of sin - mostly because it is a "problem" that was fabricated as a means of explaining why people behave as they do since there was no understanding of human anatomy or physiology at the time that these ideas were adopted.

Does that answer your question?

Thanks for sharing your believe and answering my question. I would like to go deeper on the issues, maybe tomorrow. I'm not sure if you have a solution for mankind, or if you still believe that the world needs fixing.

 

[slave2six]

many Christians have opted to pick and chose from a shell of Christian concepts, and leave life in Him and discipleship by the wayside. the truth is that this is not Christian faith at all, nor does it really count.

Considering all the hellfire and damnation theology that has abounded through the centuries, I see this as a step forward.

life in Christ Jesus should be joyful, prayerful, selfless, and blessed.

Honestly, neither I nor any other non-believer that I know has any problem with anyone who lives thus. But if one wants to have a discussion about the topic then one must be prepared to accept that opposing views (though often as dogmatic as Christian views) are not born of evil. There are as many charitable non-Christians as there are Christians. I think it is telling that the one story about Hell that is recorded as being from Jesus is a lesson not in atonement and having the right faith ideas but rather a lesson on who did what. It was all about behaviour.

 

[slave2six]

I'm not sure if you have a solution for mankind, or if you still believe that the world needs fixing.

Of course there is room for improvement - vast room. But, still, I cannot see the entire human race as being, at the core, corrupt evil cursed or what have you. Some are certainly worse than others but to say that Adolf Hitler and Mahama Gandhi were born with the same sin nature seems beyond irrational. Hitler had some serious mental issues that ought to have been treated...

 

[slave2six]

Thanks for sharing your belief.

I wouldn't qualify it as a belief so much as the result of observation and study and a willingness to accept reality even at the cost of losing deeply held beliefs.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Of course there is room for improvement - vast room. But, still, I cannot see the entire human race as being, at the core, corrupt evil cursed or what have you. Some are certainly worse than others but to say that Adolf Hitler and Mahama Gandhi were born with the same sin nature seems beyond irrational. Hitler had some serious mental issues that ought to have been treated...

That's an interesting point, all of us are born with different advantages, disadvantages, strengths, and benefits than others. Is it by chance that we were not born into a 3rd world underprivlidge condition?

 

[ayani]

slave ~

doubtless there are countless gracious and charitable non-Christians. my husband is from India, and lauds the number of truly selfless and Christ-like Hindus he knew in India.

Jesus, the Son, does truly matter, and make the difference. and yes, Christians should be prepared to discuss, listen, and respect, even while disagreeing.

behaviour does matter, yet so does in inner condition of the man in relation to God. and that, that orientation of self and heart, is something uniquely Christ-given. ultimately for the Christian, behaviour ought to be the fruits of being grafted to Him. and they should be willing to see and learn from the charity and goodwill of non-Christians, as God's promting them as to who they can and ought to be.

 

[slave2six]

Is it by chance that we were not born into a 3rd world underprivileged condition?

If you are suggesting that an increase of material possessions is an indication of the blessings of God, you are on a very slippery slope and your true object of worship has been revealed. Billions and billions of human beings who lived before the present age were born into the same conditions that you refer to as 3rd world simply because there was no other option.

I have lived in the Philippines in the province of Batangas in a one room/one toilet concrete shelter along side many families in similar conditions who did not consider themselves "underprivileged." One couple, in particular, will forever stand out in my memory. They were a married couple with three children who lived together and worked in the same office. They were with each other literally all day every day. I was confounded by this and asked them if they ever tired of one another and they both looked at me perplexed. "Of course not. We love each other." This after many years together. I could not fathom such a thing at the time but now I see that they were indeed blessed and far from "underpriviledged."

Conversely, I have known people born with every material advantage who yet had unhappy lives.

There are examples of happiness and sorry at every economic level. I am not saying that materialistic people are all unhappy. What I am saying is that if you measure your weight with God in terms of physical possessions, you have first denied the faith (which does not cling to possessions) and second made material things your god.

It's best to use the sandard unit of measure for how much weight one carries with God: billigrams.

 

[slave2six]

behaviour does matter, yet so does in inner condition of the man in relation to God.

And isn't the generous man, regardless of his intellectual ascent, closer to God than the least caring man who maintains all the right theology in his mind? If there is a God then I cannot see how he can measure whether someone is close to him or not except by actions and attitudes of the heart.

 

[Christless Christianity]

If you are suggesting that an increase of material possessions is an indication of the blessings of God, you are on a very slippery slope and your true object of worship has been revealed. Billions and billions of human beings who lived before the present age were born into the same conditions that you refer to as 3rd world simply because there was no other option.

I have lived in the Philippines in the province of Batangas in a one room/one toilet concrete shelter along side many families in similar conditions who did not consider themselves "underprivileged." One couple, in particular, will forever stand out in my memory. They were a married couple with three children who lived together and worked in the same office. They were with each other literally all day every day. I was confounded by this and asked them if they ever tired of one another and they both looked at me perplexed. "Of course not. We love each other." This after many years together. I could not fathom such a thing at the time but now I see that they were indeed blessed and far from "underpriviledged."

Conversely, I have known people born with every material advantage who yet had unhappy lives.

There are examples of happiness and sorry at every economic level. I am not saying that materialistic people are all unhappy. What I am saying is that if you measure your weight with God in terms of physical possessions, you have first denied the faith (which does not cling to possessions) and second made material things your god.

It's best to use the sandard unit of measure for how much weight one carries with God: billigrams.

Good points... but I was not addressing materialistic comforts. There is a higher death rate for infants and children with inferior health services. In certain 3rd world countries, basic needs are not met and people are starving to death. In some countries, genocides are documented and lawlessness reign. Is this just radomn or could this be related to religious supersition and religious opression?

 

[slave2six]

Good points... but I was not addressing materialistic comforts. There is a higher death rate for infants and children with inferior health services. In certain 3rd world countries, basic needs are not met and people are starving to death. In some countries, genocides are documented and lawlessness reign. Is this just random or could this be related to religious superstition and religious oppression?

I would have to know which specific situations you are addressing before I could even guess whether religion or superstition enters into it.

You touch on another point that I have trouble with. Christians believe that death leads to a more perfect form of life for all eternity for those who are "saved" (among whom are the innocent children who die). But I have yet to meet a Christian who isn't terrified by death or deeply troubled when even the best of their Christian friends/relatives dies. It makes no sense to me. Indeed, I have trouble understanding why Christians are not more reckless and fearless. I mean, you go skydiving and it's a total blast but if something goes wrong and you die then it's even better than what you had planned on (if you really are going to Heaven). Even when I was a Christian I never understood people who fear their own death.

 

[Christless Christianity]

I would have to know which specific situations you are addressing before I could even guess whether religion or superstition enters into it.

You touch on another point that I have trouble with. Christians believe that death leads to a more perfect form of life for all eternity for those who are "saved" (among whom are the innocent children who die). But I have yet to meet a Christian who isn't terrified by death or deeply troubled when even the best of their Christian friends/relatives dies. It makes no sense to me. Indeed, I have trouble understanding why Christians are not more reckless and fearless. I mean, you go skydiving and it's a total blast but if something goes wrong and you die then it's even better than what you had planned on (if you really are going to Heaven). Even when I was a Christian I never understood people who fear their own death.

I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make with religious superstition and 3rd world countries. But have you ever obeserved that 1st world countries tend to be influenced deeply in the past and/or present with Biblical Christianity or at least the historical Protestant version of Christianity. I have to admit that there are many 3rd world countries that are heavly influenced by Roman Catholicism (different than Protestant Christianity) which only validates my understanding of Christianity. There are of course exceptions like Japan. Has Hinduism in India contributed to some of the basic needs not being met in India through what I call religious supersition?

Within my current perspective of many people embracing a form of Christless Christanity (without Christ), it no surprise that many professing Christians fear death. I get deeply distressed when a friend or relative dies apart from faith in Christ. However, when a Christian dies, I am not distressed in the same way. As you know, the Apostle Paul writes that to live is Christ and to die is gain. I think the quote that I have as my signature reveals some truth. People tend to judge Christianity on the basis of those who profess Christ, as compared to judging Christianity from Jesus Christ Himself. I think you also made a point about being a new creation, yet Christians have not apparently changed. Have you consider Romans 6 in regards to Paul's struggle with sin and flesh as a mature Christian?

 

[Mr Cheese]

the Indians claim their christian church was founded by St Thomas....

the guy who's gospel you don't like....

 

[Christless Christianity]

the Indians claim their christian church was founded by St Thomas....

the guy who's gospel you don't like....

Are you talking about native american?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Are you talking about native american?

No, Indians, from India

WELCOME TO INDIAN CHRISTIANITY

 

[slave2six]

Originally Posted by slave2six
Christ's sacrifice is entirely based on the "Fall of Man" story in Gen. 3. Take that story away and Christianity has no foundation whatsoever. Agreed? Or can your Christianity survive without the "Fall of Man"?

Sure, without the fall of man, we have no need of redemption.

OK. So we have a starting point. Now, would you also agree that the story has to be literal and not mere allegory?

 

[Christless Christianity]

No, Indians, from India

WELCOME TO INDIAN CHRISTIANITY

Thanks for the link. I have found it to be very interesting. I read the history of it:

WELCOME TO INDIAN CHRISTIANITY

But I couldn't find a summary of what they believe as Christians.

 

[Christless Christianity]

OK. So we have a starting point. Now, would you also agree that the story has to be literal and not mere allegory?

I think a literaly account of Geneis 3 is the conservative orthodox position. But you know that there are Christians who reject the literal account of creation and the fall. I'm not sure if that view makes them less Christian, do you? I actually know of a professor at the conservative orthodox seminary of Westminster who rejects the literal 6 day account of creation.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The Syrian Malabar Nasrani people, also known as Saint Thomas Christians are an ethnoreligious group from Kerala, India, adhering to the various churches of the Saint Thomas Christian tradition. They are also known as Syrian-Malabar Christians, Suriyani Christiaanikal, Mar Thoma Nasrani, or more popularly as Syrian Christians in view that they use Syriac liturgy since the early days of Christianity in India.
The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the natives and those of the Jewish diaspora in Kerala

Syrian Malabar Nasrani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think a literaly account of Geneis 3 is the conservative orthodox position. But you know that there are Christians who reject the literal account of creation and the fall. I'm not sure if that view makes them less Christian, do you? I actually know of a professor at the conservative orthodox seminary of Westminster who rejects the literal 6 day account of creation.

The vatican has rejected a 6 day literal creation hasnt it???

:sarcastic

I thought largely it was only protestants that beleive in

6 days of creation
literal adam and eve
te earth is 6000 yrs old

but I am sure there are soem in every group, but the majority are protestants

 

[Christless Christianity]

The vatican has rejected a 6 day literal creation hasnt it???

:sarcastic

I thought largely it was only protestants that beleive in

6 days of creation
literal adam and eve
te earth is 6000 yrs old

but I am sure there are soem in every group, but the majority are protestants

Modern day protestantism is a mxture of anything goes.... as you can see by my screen name. Actually, the argument by the Westminster Professor for a non-literal creation account is pretty strong, based on the original language.