Christless Christianity

[Mr Cheese]

Sometimes the line between imagination and reality is very very thin...

what if reality is imagination

..........

I wish I had a bottle
Right here in my pretty face to wear the scars
To show from where I came

We don’t talk about love we only want to get drunk
And we are not allowed to spend
As we are told that this is the end

A design for life
A design for life
A design for life
A design for life...

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think once a Christian understands predestination and election, we are enabled to love the unbeliever, and treat them with over-abundant grace.

predestination and election....

 

[Mr Cheese]

The only difference between the believer and unbeliever is their eternal final predestination, determined before the creation of the world. Do you seem to agree?

ugh....

:sarcastic you believe God is an unfair bung hole that says many are doomed before they are even born...

now THAT is a Christless Christian

 

[Mr Cheese]

A cover, without pages or a spine... would you call that a book?

A spine, without pages or a cover... would you call that a book?

Pages, without a spine or a cover... would you call that a book?


Yet with the trinity, people refer to "God the Father" "God the son" and "God the holy spirit"...

The idea that God is split into thirds is very much not monotheism.

God is not split, unless you are a mormon, I beleive. That is the point.

One could examine Judaism and come to similar conclusions about it not being monotheistic if one examines kabbalah.... of course they'd be wrong, but again
simplistic conclusions are simplistic concl;usions, no matter what the subject is.

Praise the Shekinah:

 

[Mr Cheese]

Our personal deeds of righteousness are like fility rags when we use them to please God, reconcile us to God, or gain His favor because our personal deeds are tainted with unclean motives of the heart. We agree that the golden rule is commanded... to love our neighbors as ourselves. The Bible teaches us that the law is good, but the law kills too. The law is intended to show our true spiritual condition before a perfectly moral God.

Reflection for November 19, 2008: Do not hold back from me Your everlasting Beauty « Prayers and Reflections

“O God, If I worship You for fear of Hell,
burn me in Hell without end.

And if I worship You in hope of Paradise,
Forbid it forever to me.

But if I worship You for You,
do not hold back from me Your everlasting Beauty.”

- Rabi a al-Basri

But creatures remain untouchable, inviolable. If God wants you to suffer a little, He allows you to learn just how inviolable they are. As soon as you try to possess their goodness for its own sake, all that is sweet in them becomes bitter to you, all that is beautiful, ugly. Everything you love sickens you. And at the same time your need to love something, somebody, increases a hundred times over. And God, Who is the only one who can be loved for His own sake alone, remains invisible and imaginable and untouchable, beyond everything else that exists.”

–Thomas Merton

……..
The Kingdom of Heaven is within you –the immortal words of Christ do not pertain exclusively to the patristic formulae of salvation through sacrament, nor do they point only to the mystical body itself as unitive and unifying salvation. Rather, the observation is most profound or religious truths, akin to the shahadatyn themselves, the depth of micrcosmic reality, the height of human possibility. Above the kataphatic lies the apophatic, and This is unapproachable, impenetrable. But the kataphatic is a Reality humanity mirrors, when cleansed of unnecessary and delimiting contingency.

–Ahson Azmat (Extract from: Between Kaf and Nun: Rings, Gardens, Cosmos and Imago Terrae: Towards an explanation of Sacred Tome and Space, found in Sophia vol 12, no1)
Sophia Journal

 

[Christless Christianity]

So we can love others because they are nothing more than objects of the wrath of God, "you" the object of God's grace.

You're not kidding - there is no room for pride in moral superiority, everyone is subject to God's grace or wrath.

One would think that one could make up a God a little more sane.

Unbelievers as well as believers are made in the image of God (although broken since the fall). We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. Who is our neighbor but believers and unbelievers alike. In addition, who knows if a certain vessel of wrath becomes a vessel of mercy after hearing the good news? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

The Great Commandment

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Christless Christianity]

Can you describe the difference between faith and imagination for me please? To me, they are one and the same. With faith you have to just accept something as being real without any evidence. Same with imagination. Why is one considered to be more valid or noble than the other?

We all have faith grounded in something. Even the atheist has faith that there is no god. And the agnostic has faith that he does not know if there is a god. A Christian's faith grounded in the person and work of Christ is a gift from God, granted to sinners by God Himself.

 

[Christless Christianity]

ugh....

:sarcastic you believe God is an unfair bung hole that says many are doomed before they are even born...

now THAT is a Christless Christian

That's a Christ-centered Christianity based on the Bible.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

 

[slave2six]

We all have faith grounded in something. Even the atheist has faith that there is no god. And the agnostic has faith that he does not know if there is a god. A Christian's faith grounded in the person and work of Christ is a gift from God, granted to sinners by God Himself.

That's silly. Would you therefore say that you have faith that there is no Balrog?

 

[Mr Cheese]

That's a Christ-centered Christianity based on the Bible.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

damnation before birth is based on INTERPRETATION

no more, no less

and frankly I find it abhorrent and a good way to justify many negative human thoughts and deeds.....

Arguably it is ideas such as this that allowed for Hitler's final solution....

 

[Christless Christianity]

damnation before birth is based on INTERPRETATION

no more, no less

and frankly I find it abhorrent and a good way to justify many negative human thoughts and deeds.....

Arguably it is ideas such as this that allowed for Hitler's final solution....

Please feel free to interpert Ephesians 1 for us. There are additonal major Bible verses in regards to predestination that you can also interpert for us after Ephesians 1.

I would not use the term damnation before birth. Jesus uses the word condemned... we are already condemned before birth. Jesus came to seek and saved the lost, to remove the already condemned condition of humanity (sinners). If mankind was not condemned before birth, why would God the Father send God the Son to save the lost (condemned race)?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. - John 3

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1

 

[Mr Cheese]

Please feel free to interpert Ephesians 1 for us. There are additonal major Bible verses in regards to predestination that you can also interpert for us after Ephesians 1.

I would not use the term damnation before birth. Jesus uses the word condemned... we are already condemned before birth. Jesus came to seek and saved the lost, to remove the already condemned condition of humanity (sinners). If mankind was not condemned before birth, why would God the Father send God the Son to save the lost (condemned race)?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. - John 3

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1

Please show us where jesus actually says people are damned not John, Paul or Gilbert.....

Thank you

Described by William Barclay as the "Queen of the Epistles", the Epistle to the Ephesians is one of the books of the Bible in the New Testament.[1] Saint Paul is traditionally said to have written the letter while he was in prison in Rome (around AD 62). This would be about the same time as the Epistle to the Colossians (which in many points it resembles) and the Epistle to Philemon. However, some critical scholars have questioned the authorship of the letter, and suggest it may have been written between AD 80 and 100, or perhaps as late as 170

I guess you're another follower of PAUL, not Christ....

"and suggest it may have been written between AD 80 and 100, or perhaps as late as 170"

hmmmmm

seems to me like another "power play" by men after the fact...and quite frankly against the teachings of Christ


Ephesians is notable for its treatment of women. Ephesians 5:22 commands not only that women should submit to their husbands but that husbands should love their wives. Feminist theologians such as Katharine Bushnell and Jesse Pen-Lewis interpret in context of the preceding verse 21, a general command of submission to others. Thus, all Christians should submit to each other: both husbands to wives and wives to husbands.
Ephesians 6:5 was used by Confederate slaveholders in support of a slaveholding position.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Please show us where jesus actually says people are damned not John, Paul or Gilbert.....

Thank you

Could you please consider John 3 that I posted? Actually, Jesus said quite a bit about fleeing the wrath of God for sin. Here is another verse by Jesus:

Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned". - Mark 16:14

 

[Mr Cheese]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. - John 3

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1

John 3 doesnt really mean we are doomed before we are even born though....
It more states we ahve a choice....

 

[Mr Cheese]

Could you please consider John 3 that I posted? Actually, Jesus said quite a bit about fleeing the wrath of God for sin. Here is another verse by Jesus:

Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned". - Mark 16:14

Still that doesnt state we are born damned while some are saved...

again, we have a choice

 

[Heneni]

Still that doesnt state we are born damned while some are saved...

again, we have a choice

John 15:16
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Still that doesnt state we are born damned while some are saved...

again, we have a choice

Okay, what's the choice? If you look at John 3 closer, we are all condemned before we hear the good news proclaimed to us. The gospel means good news. The gospel does not mean bad news or condemning news if we reject it. We are all condemned before hearing about Jesus Christ and His saving work for sinners. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and He did not come to condemned those in the world since the world is already condemned from the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3. Nobody is saved before hearing the gospel proclamation and receiving it.

 

[Kurt31416]

Everyone lives forever regardless, the historical Jesus just said if you know it, you won't know death.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Okay, what's the choice? If you look at John 3 closer, we are all condemned before we hear the good news proclaimed to us. The gospel means good news. The gospel does not mean bad news or condemning news if we reject it. We are all condemned before hearing about Jesus Christ and His saving work for sinners. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and He did not come to condemned those in the world since the world is already condemned from the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3. Nobody is saved before hearing the gospel proclamation and receiving it.

by this logic natives in Borneo are going to hell, as they have and never will read the bible or learn about Jesus.

Such ideas are literalistic idiocy.....

But that is literalism for you

One can work out a better solution if one examines what Christ is, and the simple fact that Christ transcends Christianity and can be found found in many places..... even in Borneo....

But that is what happens when people worship their religion not God

Unless I am mistaken about my assessment of your statements:sad:

 

[Mr Cheese]

John 15:16
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.

Your point is?

What do you think this means?

Does this not contradict the idea of the elected few who will be saved ad the rest are just plain up a creek without a paddle?