Christmas Deities?

[ratikala]

It goes back to arguing whether saris and dhotis were always part of all human cultures and that if every human being on this planet prior to Kaliyuga were Vaishnava in some stripe or another, if dressing Them only in 'Vaishnava attire' is the only way.

As far as I know, temples have different standards, such as certain temples offering betel nut, and other temples offering only certain types of rice. In the same way, not every temple will have the same standard.

Another reason why I am on the fence about cultural appropriation is because Vaishnavism through Gaudiya Vedanta Society or ISKCON, or SCS Math, or whatever other venues, etc. is spreading and proliferating in China, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. People from all different walks of life are learning how to love Krishna - Krishna is not Indian, or Black, or White, or Oriental - He is for everyone, and sure enough, yes, maybe it is failing the injunctions of Deity worship; however, I do not think that Krishna would be so unloving that He would not look unkindly to those sincerely worshipping Him

.dear gaura pryia

please excuse me ,

I am not wishing to pick a fight , simply to passon a thought on this ,

I am glad to hear you say that you are on the fence on this one .

I looked up where this picture came from , the one you show comes from ireland ,
and on the site I found they were discussing this very issue ,so I quote srila prabupada ...."the greatest danger will come when we manifacture our own prosess of worshiping deitys " 1973 .

of course this is true of adding or inventing any new practice as the danger will be that the tradititonaly prescribed methods are in danger of being lost , and therefore the whole idea of diciplic succession being weakened .

I think it is important that if we wish to take up deity worship then we should be most carefull to do this without committing any offences ,we should be very careful to remember that we are serving the lord , and that we should serve the deitys as would please them , not as would please us .

there is allso an issue of respect , in this case I canot help but wonder why this was being done ? on occasions such as christmas I have dressed the shrine for christmas , there were minature christmas trees and decorated to suit the season (no tinsle I promice )many of the pujaris and members of the congregation allso bring gifts for the deitys , this way they enjoy the festive season for what it shoud be , a season of good will oh yes and of course christmas cake (without egg of course).

the one thing that I have enjoyed about entering in to another culture has been taking on the traditions of that culture and helping to maintain and peserve them for the benifit of future generations , and of corse for the glorificaton of the lord .

namaskars :namaste ratikala:tree::tree::tree:

 

[Gaura Priya]

.dear gaura pryia

please excuse me ,

I am not wishing to pick a fight , simply to passon a thought on this ,

I am glad to hear you say that you are on the fence on this one .

I looked up where this picture came from , the one you show comes from ireland ,
and on the site I found they were discussing this very issue ,so I quote srila prabupada ...."the greatest danger will come when we manifacture our own prosess of worshiping deitys " 1973 .

of course this is true of adding or inventing any new practice as the danger will be that the tradititonaly prescribed methods are in danger of being lost , and therefore the whole idea of diciplic succession being weakened .

I think it is important that if we wish to take up deity worship then we should be most carefull to do this without committing any offences ,we should be very careful to remember that we are serving the lord , and that we should serve the deitys as would please them , not as would please us .

there is allso an issue of respect , in this case I canot help but wonder why this was being done ? on occasions such as christmas I have dressed the shrine for christmas , there were minature christmas trees and decorated to suit the season (no tinsle I promice )many of the pujaris and members of the congregation allso bring gifts for the deitys , this way they enjoy the festive season for what it shoud be , a season of good will oh yes and of course christmas cake (without egg of course).

the one thing that I have enjoyed about entering in to another culture has been taking on the traditions of that culture and helping to maintain and peserve them for the benifit of future generations , and of corse for the glorificaton of the lord .

namaskars :namaste ratikala:tree::tree::tree:

There are things that I struggle with.

For example, I was taught a very strict form of Vaishnavism, and those in ISKCON are doing all sorts of things out of line in what traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism calls for. For example:

* Dressing the Deities in something like this fashion instead of dressing Them in proper attire

* Having pictures of devatas. In SCS Math there was no such a thing!

* Worshipping Sri Sri Radha-Krishna or having Their pictures without Sriman Mahaprabhu. In ALL of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's temples, there was always Sriman Mahaprabhu before Radha-Krishna. However, many devotees keep pictures of Krishna without Radha, or Radha without Krishna, and Both without Lord Chaitanya. This is not proper Gaudiya siddhanta.

* having instruments played in the temple besides mrdanga and karatalas. Both karatalas and mrdangas are proper worshipful instruments for the Lord, not trumpets, violins, accordions, djembes, etc. This is specific to ISKCON.

* Changing the way we chant the Mahamantra. Generally we sing and repeat the first part of the mantra, and then the second... but Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON has changed this to singing the whole mantra in one go.

You can listen to a sample of this here: Mahamantra Kirttan by huron on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

This Gaura-gitanjali collection is a beautiful collection of Gaudiya Vaishnava kirtanas with only voice, mrdanga and karatalas, just as Mahaprabhu sang five hundred years ago.

All of these are just samples of what I know, and what I've seen in ISKCON. I used to be very against these innovations as well, but I've grown to tolerate them. After all, was it not Srila Bhaktisiddhanta himself who said that even if there needs be meat to preach to such fallen ones, let them bring meat!

In former forms of Vaishnavism, women did not wear urdhva-pundra tilaka. They did not even receive the blessings of diksha, or become pujarinis! Now, in this Gaudiya Vaishnava movement that seeks to bring the essence of Vaishnavism, women can wear tilaka, take diksha, and even become pujarinis, since women also wear tilaka in the spiritual worlds.

So in all, I have no idea. Sometimes innovation is necessary to further the tradition; sometimes it's best to keep it as it is as well, such as Sri Ramanujacharya's chastisement from the Lord Himself for attempting to change the 'improper worship' of a Jagannatha temple.

 

[ratikala]

dear gaura pryia ,

I am hardly supprised that you say you struggle with some things ,

in some respects I feel the same ,

there are some aspects of deity service that I do not agree with on a purely instinctive level , on one hand I would not want to stop anyone serving from their heart but I think allso that if we truely love the deity form that we serve we should train our minds to appriciate the wishes of the deity it self ,
therefore we should not impose our tastes upon the lord .

allthough I was not serving there I particularly like the way that the sri vaisnavas dress their deitys in a very traditional manner , and allso swami narayan temples which I have visited decorate in a very tradition and simple way , it is respectfull , beautifull and gracefull .

I have a real problem with offering any thing cheap or tacky , nothing to synthetic!!!
you wouldnt give synthetic flowers so why give synthetic clothing ?to my mind the deity clothing should be made with love it could be of cotton or of silk depending on what one can afford but it is the love in the making which is of most importance , and simple gracefull beauty to my mind is better than a mass of synthetic frills sequins and bling , I have been in temples where the costumes are held together with half a ton of pins , blue tac and other un mentionables ! this canot be comfortable for the deitys :no: so why do we do it ?

apperance !and apperance only , any pujari with half a heart could not stick things on the lord with blue tac , or expect the lord to feel comfortable when held together with pins , we need to think more , would I like to go out held together with pins ? :no: so what then of the lord surely he is of paramount importance and should be given the very best :yes: (and not be expected to participate in a pantomime show for our entertainment )

and when it comes to temple decoration and kirtan , I feel the same way , why are we so intent on change for change sake , I love the traditional instruments and the timeless quality of the more traditional methods of chanting ,... bhajan and kirtan allso, as you said to think that we are singing as was done by the authour of the original bhajan , or chanting to a rythum used for centurys is awe inspiring and links us with the tradition and its founders , that has to be special .

yes of course some inovation can be benificial , but there is a thing called reason !

I think allso we have to use our common sence and read a little between the lines of every instruction making sure that we truely understand it , I must admit that i got very fed up with some of the confusing mixed messages that I found even within one tradition let alone between different maths so to some extent I trust my heart and listen to the wishes of the deitys they will tell you what is right ,

do you know the storys of sri nathji and his relationship with his pujaris ?

they are very sweet storys .I learnt a lot about serva reading these storys .

please , please you have to tell me how to load pictures I would like to post some

namaskars :namaste ratikala

 

[DeviChaaya]

As a Saiva/Sakta, I don't really get much say in this but I would like to say that I find the images of the murtis dressed up for the secular season endearing. As many people discussing this are in the northern hemisphere such clothes are entirely appropriate. Would you have the devotees dressing Them in their typical outfits while it is snowing outside? The Divine has taken up residence in these images and the appropriate respect should be given ie. dressing them up for the weather.

Now, to Satyamavejayanti - everyone has a claim on Sanatana Dharma for it is the Eternal Law. It does not belong to you and it does not belong to me. It belongs to everyone. The only difference between you and I is that we have realised our right to Sanatana Dharma while others continue to muddle through without its light.

If you wish to debate denigration, start a post in the debate forums, not here in the DIR Hinduism forum.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

As a Saiva/Sakta, I don't really get much say in this but I would like to say that I find the images of the murtis dressed up for the secular season endearing. As many people discussing this are in the northern hemisphere such clothes are entirely appropriate. Would you have the devotees dressing Them in their typical outfits while it is snowing outside? The Divine has taken up residence in these images and the appropriate respect should be given ie. dressing them up for the weather.

Now, to Satyamavejayanti - everyone has a claim on Sanatana Dharma for it is the Eternal Law. It does not belong to you and it does not belong to me. It belongs to everyone. The only difference between you and I is that we have realised our right to Sanatana Dharma while others continue to muddle through without its light.

If you wish to debate denigration, start a post in the debate forums, not here in the DIR Hinduism forum.

I was not intending on debate, I was only putting my view forward, I don't think the Devine requires santa outfits because it feels the weather, it is beyond the human concept of feeling, I think respect is more appropriate. and I don't claim Sanatana Dharma to be anyone's, if it seems to you (or anyone) that I did then I apologise.

 

[Madhuri]

I was not intending on debate, I was only putting my view forward, I don't think the Devine requires santa outfits because it feels the weather, it is beyond the human concept of feeling, I think respect is more appropriate. and I don't claim Sanatana Dharma to be anyone's, if it seems to you (or anyone) that I did then I apologise.

My personal opinion is that it depends on the intention of the devotee who dressed the deities.
One thing that is emphasised in Krishna devotion is love and affection (ie/ "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it").
I think that if the devotee dresses the deities thinking that it is sweet, and because he and the other western devotees are conditioned to feel good at Xmas time, then the intention is good and Krishna would not be offended.

If the intention were to mock the deities, then this would be bad. But I hardly think that mocking was the intention.

Remember, according to Gaudiya Vaishnava religion, each individual is considered to have a unique relationship with Krishna. This can be as a friend, parent, lover, child, servant etc. I can imagine that some people who worship the deities by dressing them would see them as children and love them in that capacity. And so 'including' the deities in Xmas holiday spirit might be born of affection. If this is the case then I see it as pure and innocent.

 

[Andal]

I was not intending on debate, I was only putting my view forward, I don't think the Devine requires santa outfits because it feels the weather, it is beyond the human concept of feeling, I think respect is more appropriate. and I don't claim Sanatana Dharma to be anyone's, if it seems to you (or anyone) that I did then I apologise.

I think this may be where some of the issue lays. You see it as dressing the deities in Santa clothes. I'm from the northern hemisphere a place where the sun sets by 4pm this time of year, where the temperature is cold, and snow falls frequently. To me these aren't "Santa Clothes" they are season appropriate clothing. If it were just santa clothes then it would be offensive as it would be aligning the Lord with a secular fictional figure. I don't like the reindeer and other things in the first photo but the clothing itself is fine if it is done out of love and respect. Sure the deities don't feel temperature however to dress them in season appropriate clothes is a sign of a deep love and caring that one has for the Lord.

Just my opinion.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Gaura Priya]

I think this may be where some of the issue lays. You see it as dressing the deities in Santa clothes. I'm from the northern hemisphere a place where the sun sets by 4pm this time of year, where the temperature is cold, and snow falls frequently. To me these aren't "Santa Clothes" they are season appropriate clothing. If it were just santa clothes then it would be offensive as it would be aligning the Lord with a secular fictional figure. I don't like the reindeer and other things in the first photo but the clothing itself is fine if it is done out of love and respect. Sure the deities don't feel temperature however to dress them in season appropriate clothes is a sign of a deep love and caring that one has for the Lord.

Just my opinion.

Aum Hari Aum!

This is the case with most, if not all Gaudiya Vaishnavas in dressing the Deities. We generally, especially at home, dress the Lord according to the weather. I mean, even the Lord does not need different outfits; He is beyond everything. However, He gives us the chance to worship Him through His Deity form: nama-rupa-guna-lila... we can worship Him through His name, His form, His qualities, or His pastimes.

We should always dress the Deities nicely, so I just thought it was endearing for Them to see how much love we have to the Deities. Sure, maybe the first picture was tacky, but the second picture was quite lovely.

I visit my friend's house of a woman who has first and second initiation in my religion, and she has spent at least 20 years in Mayapur, doing service and spending time to practice our religion. And when I visit her beautiful Deities, she serves them every day, achamana and all. And the queerest little expression of love is that Srimati Radharani has a personal handbag. It just makes darshana all the more ecstatic, as Their Lordships have as much need in Their pastimes (though they are without need) as we do ourselves.

Who am I to question her bhakti, when she has spent so many years in the Vaishnava religion? Krishna does not need to be worshipped with images, forms, or whatever; we only need to chant His name to develop that love for Him; however, He kindly gives us archanam to come to Him, or archana-vigraha (worship of the Deity form of the Lord).

 

[Gaura Priya]

I was not intending on debate, I was only putting my view forward, I don't think the Devine requires santa outfits because it feels the weather, it is beyond the human concept of feeling, I think respect is more appropriate. and I don't claim Sanatana Dharma to be anyone's, if it seems to you (or anyone) that I did then I apologise.

Sanatana Dharma is very dear to me, and for you to tell me that I was mocking my own religion that I practice every day, having sadhana, reading shastra, and focussing on loving Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu and His many forms as Sri Krishna, Sriman Narayana, etc. downright hurtful.

I myself am learning to learn and appreciate all sorts of things that generally don't occur in traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism that have become innovated into the modern day religion, such as using the harmonium and Western instruments. How can one respect the kirtana which is non-different from Krishna, if one uses non-Gaudiya instrumentation? Technically, only karatalas (expansion of Srimati Radharani) and mrdanga (expansion of Balarama) are allowed; all other instruments like harmonium decorate the kirtana and can distract the ear instead of appreciating the words and the actual meaning.

So when I see these Deities dressed up in outfits for winter, I find them quite sweet. I hardly think that one would dress them in a light sari and a dhoti and vest for wintertime where it is very cold here! In the past, I would have cringed, but these days I find myself appreciating devotion wherever my blind, egotistical eyes open up to seeing it.

As long as it isn't like a wifebeater and track pants, or a tanktop and short shorts, I find it quite nice.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

"Shri" is only reserved for the Lord Yog Raj Sri Krishna ji, Arya Veer Shri Ram Chandra ji (Maha Vishnu) himself, please don't insult my religion.

Maybe you should write to Sri Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and tell him that his name is an Insult to your faith and he should change it. Do you also have a problem with Swami Vivekananda calling his Guru Sri Ramakrishna ?

 

[Breathe]

As long as it isn't like a wifebeater and track pants, or a tanktop and short shorts, I find it quite nice.

Oh God, I'd freak out if I saw that.

What about Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā in formal western attire, or wedding suits? Cute or too weird?

 

[Gaura Priya]

Oh God, I'd freak out if I saw that.

What about Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā in formal western attire, or wedding suits? Cute or too weird?

Let's not get too carried away now... :areyoucra

 

[ratikala]

Oh God, I'd freak out if I saw that.

me too !!!!!
infact this whole conversation is getting rather disturbing !!!!

What about Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā in formal western attire, or wedding suits? Cute or too weird?

disturbing !!!!!

 

[Gaura Priya]

This is a typical Gaudiya Vaishnava altar, in the style that existed since Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's temples:

In Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta, you have Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu *always* before Sri Sri Radha-Krishna, otherwise it is offensive to have Their Lordships Sri Sri Radha-Krishna without Sriman Mahaprabhu. The belief is that only through the knowledge of Sri Gauranga can we attain the mercy of Their Lordships, and without Him in the centre, we can not philosophically, neither spiritually conceive of the Divine Couple, our Heavenly Parents.

Also the altars are very simple. Generally if one has a home altar, simplicity is strongly maintained as much as possible.

 

[ratikala]

As a Saiva/Sakta, I don't really get much say in this but I would like to say that I find the images of the murtis dressed up for the secular season endearing. As many people discussing this are in the northern hemisphere such clothes are entirely appropriate. Would you have the devotees dressing Them in their typical outfits while it is snowing outside? The Divine has taken up residence in these images and the appropriate respect should be given ie. dressing them up for the weather.

our deitys have very nice shawls for cold weather , so they are nice and warm

If you wish to debate denigration, start a post in the debate forums, not here in the DIR Hinduism forum.

dear divine kala ,

thank you I have taken your suggestion and opened a thread for serious discussion of deity sreva and the possible denigration of sanatana dharma ,

Now, to Satyamavejayanti - everyone has a claim on Sanatana Dharma for it is the
Eternal Law. It does not belong to you and it does not belong to me. It belongs to everyone. The only difference between you and I is that we have realised our right to Sanatana Dharma while others continue to muddle through without its light.

my feelings on sanatana dharma , is that it exists , it is unchanging and eternal ,
it is our choice to subscribe to it or not , as is our wish and understanding ,

but we canot possess it , it belongs to no particular person , no one can be excluded from it , but similarly no one can change it !

I look forward to your posts ,

namaskars :namaste ratikala

 

[Breathe]

Let's not get too carried away now... :areyoucra

Viśvarūpa Kṛṣṇa in a Santa suit is less weird than in a business suit?

me too !!!!!
infact this whole conversation is getting rather disturbing !!!!

disturbing !!!!!

I can understand that, although I see it as kind of useful in its own way: how far can we separate "Indianness" from Sanatāna Dharma, and so on.

 

[ratikala]

This is a typical Gaudiya Vaishnava altar, in the style that existed since Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's temples:

In Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta, you have Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu *always* before Sri Sri Radha-Krishna, otherwise it is offensive to have Their Lordships Sri Sri Radha-Krishna without Sriman Mahaprabhu. The belief is that only through the knowledge of Sri Gauranga can we attain the mercy of Their Lordships, and without Him in the centre, we can not philosophically, neither spiritually conceive of the Divine Couple, our Heavenly Parents.

Also the altars are very simple. Generally if one has a home altar, simplicity is strongly maintained as much as possible.

thank you for their darshan :bow:

 

[Gaura Priya]

Viśvarūpa Kṛṣṇa in a Santa suit is less weird than in a business suit?

I can understand that, although I see it as kind of useful in its own way: how far can we separate "Indianness" from Sanatāna Dharma, and so on.

Actually, I was trying to find that ISKCON picture of Lord Krishna in a suit and top hat, and I have to say, He did look good.

It's like one of the pictures of some Radha-Krishna Deities in some European country temple, where Srimati Radharani wore this beautiful European-style elegant dress; I thought that was absolutely amazing!

 

[Jainarayan]

Dont say Shri Yeshu, its not in the bible, "Shri" is only reserved for the Lord Yog Raj Sri Krishna ji, Arya Veer Shri Ram Chandra ji (Maha Vishnu) himself, please don't insult my religion.

Sri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sri (Devanagari: श्री, IAST; Śrī), also transliterated as Shri or Shree or shre is a word of Sanskrit origin, used in the Indian subcontinent as polite form of address equivalent to the English "Mr." in written and spoken language, or as a title of veneration for deities (usually translated as "Lord").

...

Etymology
Sri has the root meaning of radiance, or diffusing light, much like the English word "illuminate".[1][2] In Sanskrit grammar, Sri has the feminine gender. It is gender-specific in Sanskrit, but the assumption that it is masculine has resulted in the titles of Shrimati (abbreviated Smt) for married women and Sushri for women (independent of marital status).
...

Sri (also Sree, Shri, Shree, shre , श्र&#2368 polite form of address equivalent to the English "Mr."[2]

Must we keep playing games with usage and origins of words? People, please do some research on etymologies and linguistics before running off at the mouth and looking foolish.