Church Will Not Hold Gay Service

[9-10ths_Penguin]

my question.

do you think the family should have done some research on the beliefs of the church before trying to have his funeral there?

and for the record, i think it was wrong to say yes they would do it, and then no a day before.

To turn the question around, don't you think that if the church cared this strongly about a particular issue, it should've been made clear from the outset?

I've never had to organize a church funeral, but I know for my wedding, the church was quite clear about what was expected of us, everything from the normal order of service, a selection of Biblical readings to choose from, and even informal advice on what was appropriate (in the words of the priest, "the bagpipes are not a liturgical instrument." ).

Without seeing the video/photo display in question, it's hard to tell what it actually was. I know that the sister of the deceased told at least one reporter that its content has been blown out of proportion, and it didn't show the "gay hugging and kissing" that people have claimed.

In any case, I that the time to clear up important issues is before the agreement is made, and certainly not on the day of the funeral. If something wasn't important enough to make the church say "no" from the outset, then they have no business using it as an excuse to change their minds at the last minute.

Also, I find it extremely odd that representatives of a religion that claims we're all sinners would turn someone away for being a sinner.

 

[Aqualung]

Actually, I don't think it's "their prerogative." This is not "their" Church -- it's "Christ's" Church, and Christ is the Head.

Do they even believe that? If they do believe that, I'm sure they don't think they're going AGAINST Christ. But, in all fairness, it's NOT Christ's church, and he ISN'T at the head. It's a private organisation mistakenly called a church.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why not understand the doctrine of the church and ask questions before bringing some video the day before the funeral and then but them on the headlines as hate mongers?

just like i would not want my funeral in victors church and the day of , ask to play me and my friends at a PRO choice rally. i know its a cathloic church and they are great pro life supporters.

The Catholic Church has codified most (all?) of its teachings in the Catechism, which anyone can read and use to look up the Church's doctrine for any issue on which it has a firm position. Protestant sola scriptura churches use only the Bible.

Seeing how Christians who hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura have come down on both sides of the issue of homosexuality, how can you claim that this particular church's doctrine on the issue would have been clear?

 

[Jeremiah]

Just an off shoot of another thread.

I have been hearing all this stuff about how sick, and disguating the pastor of the dallas church who wouldn't hold the Gay mans funeral is.

my question.

do you think the family should have done some research on the beliefs of the church before trying to have his funeral there?

and for the record, i think it was wrong to say yes they would do it, and then no a day before.

Maybe they thought the church would show some compassion and understanding. It would be a logical conclusion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

rocka (or anyone else),

Something struck me: in other threads, various Christians have said that homosexuality itself isn't a sin, but the act of homosexual sex is.

Since I'm certain that the pictures didn't depict actual sex acts (which I agree would be inappropriate), where does the objection of the church come from? I guarantee that in similar slide shows and video displays that accompany funerals, you'll see many shots where contraventions of Mosaic Law are hinted at, but where the image doesn't show any of them actually being broken. How is this any different?

Also, do you think the church would have had the same issues for a funeral for a heterosexual person where a slide show had images of him being covetous, prideful, or not keeping the sabbath holy?

 

[Reverend Chris]

Here is the news story
dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081007dnmetgayfuneral.3617689.html

 

[Quiddity]

The Catholic Church has codified most (all?) of its teachings in the Catechism, which anyone can read and use to look up the Church's doctrine for any issue on which it has a firm position. Protestant sola scriptura churches use only the Bible.

Seeing how Christians who hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura have come down on both sides of the issue of homosexuality, how can you claim that this particular church's doctrine on the issue would have been clear?

It hits you like a ton of bricks. :yes:

Even without a Cathecism, many Protestant denominations make it perfectly clear what is and what isn't. Especially as it relates to homosexuality.

 

[UnityNow101]

They have a right to deny the service, but it doesn't seem to be a very Christ-like thing to do to me.

 

[kiwimac]

That would be because it is not.

 

[Smoke]

Frankly, I think the family was at fault for allowing such a church to be involved in the first place. However, their foolishness pales beside the callousness of the church that agreed to host the funeral, and then pulled the plug.

 

[The Seeker]

rocka (or anyone else),

Something struck me: in other threads, various Christians have said that homosexuality itself isn't a sin, but the act of homosexual sex is.

Since I'm certain that the pictures didn't depict actual sex acts (which I agree would be inappropriate), where does the objection of the church come from? I guarantee that in similar slide shows and video displays that accompany funerals, you'll see many shots where contraventions of Mosaic Law are hinted at, but where the image doesn't show any of them actually being broken. How is this any different?

Also, do you think the church would have had the same issues for a funeral for a heterosexual person where a slide show had images of him being covetous, prideful, or not keeping the sabbath holy?

No, this wouldn't be an issue if the video was for a heterosexual person. Many Christians say that it's just the act, but I don't think that is really the case. The fact of the matter is that many are just homophobic.

My wife was catholic and when she passed we had her funeral in a catholic church. We had 2 close friends that were lesbians that were to say a few verses from the bible during the funeral. When they started to walk towards the front of the church, the priest literally ran up to them and didn't allow them to read from the bible. The priest had never met my friends before and wouldn't allow them to speak simply because they looked like lesbians.

Needless to say I was ****** and lost all respect for the Catholic religion (although I don't have anything against Catholics themselves). I simply find it hard to believe that in this day in age some institutions have such a medieval view toward homosexuality.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I live within a very short drive of that church. I did not realize until yesterday that this terrible story was set in DFW. I was saddened, but not surprised when I found out this church was in my backyard. It is shameful, and yet another of the many reasons I do not attend any church.

I guess Jesus' teaching was to love everyone, as your brother . . . unless they are homosexual. Nice going . . . "follower's of the Good Book". Disgusting.

B.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It hits you like a ton of bricks. :yes:

Even without a Cathecism, many Protestant denominations make it perfectly clear what is and what isn't. Especially as it relates to homosexuality.

The church in question doesn't appear to publicly state its allegiance to any denomination in particular. However, they do have a statement of their beliefs and mission on their web site:

Our Mission:

To pastor the Metroplex and evangelize the world.

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.

In 1999 Pastor Gary and April Simons were given a mandate by God to come to Arlington, Texas to begin a work that would have world wide impact. With a humble beginning of 16 people in a living room, there was nothing in the natural that would give any indication of what was to come.

Now almost seven years later, “Jerusalem” has been established in Arlington, Texas in a 423,000 square foot facility and “Judea” – the Metroplex is being reached through over 400 small groups called TouchPoints which are located throughout the Metroplex.
From the inception of the church, God made it clear that High Point Church was called to the nations of the world and now Samaria and the ends of the earth are coming into focus. Meetings with pastors in Central America, Europe and soon India and Africa are laying the foundation for an Association of Churches that will impact the world for Jesus.

Our Statement of Faith:

We believe:

• That the Bible is the inspired, infallible and authoritative written Word of God

• That there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit

• In the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, substitutionary and atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension to the right hand of the Father, and personal return in power and glory

• That regeneration by the Holy Spirit is essential for personal salvation, that the only means of being cleansed from sin is through repentance and faith in the shed blood of Christ and that by God’s grace through faith alone we are saved

• In the resurrection of both the saved and the lost, one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting damnation

• The baptism with the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:4 is given to believers who ask for it.

• The sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Holy life

• In the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ

I see no mention of homosexuality at all.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

do you think the family should have done some research on the beliefs of the church before trying to have his funeral there?

In my opinion, it's not the family's fault... unless they knew anything about the church. It doesn't take much to know that Bible-thumping wacko's are going to be homophobic.

and for the record, i think it was wrong to say yes they would do it, and then no a day before.

Yes... it demonstrates how heartless and diabolical these people can be.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I see no mention of homosexuality at all.

It's here:

That the Bible is the inspired, infallible and authoritative written Word of God

The verses in the Bible which appear to be against homosexuality are well known. I have a few threads on them...

Homsexuality and Cosmology: Nature and Choice Are Irrelevant
Some notes on Paul and homosexuality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The verses in the Bible which appear to be against homosexuality are well known. I have a few threads on them...

As I mentioned before, there are a significant number of sola scriptura congregations and denominations that are tolerant of homosexuality, so I don't think the issue is as clear-cut as you suggest.

Anyhow, whatever your opinion on the Bible's position for or against homosexuality, it'd be a stretch to accept the verses you refer to while ignoring passages like these sprinkled liberally throughout:

Romans 14:1: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:4: Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

John 8:7: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

And however you contort their meaning, I don't think any of the verses refer to can possibly construed to unequivocably say "don't permit a funeral for a gay man in your church."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As I mentioned before, there are a significant number of sola scriptura congregations and denominations that are tolerant of homosexuality, so I don't think the issue is as clear-cut as you suggest.

I don't know of any self-described biblically-based churches who are affirming of homosexuality. As David Balch writes in his book Homosexuality and the Plain Sense of Scripture, pastors and scholars who want to be affirming of homosexuality can't and don't do it from Scripture, but from compassion.

Anyhow, whatever your opinion on the Bible's position for or against homosexuality, it'd be a stretch to accept the verses you refer to while ignoring passages like these sprinkled liberally throughout:

Romans 14:1: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:4: Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

John 8:7: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Those who interpret the Bible to the exclusion of homosexuality (which in my opinion is indisputable) are not forced to hold these verses to the mutual exclusion of what the Bible plainly teaches is sin.

And however you contort their meaning, I don't think any of the verses refer to can possibly construed to unequivocably say "don't permit a funeral for a gay man in your church."

I agree completely....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know of any self-described biblically-based churches who are affirming of homosexuality. As David Balch writes in his book Homosexuality and the Plain Sense of Scripture, pastors and scholars who want to be affirming of homosexuality can't and don't do it from Scripture, but from compassion.

A quick look at ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance reveals two right off the bat:

- the Alliance of Baptists specifically affirms their belief that homosexuality is not sinful, and is vocal in its support for same-sex marriage.

- the American Baptist Churches "affirm supportive friendships that are emotionally intimate, but reserve genital sexuality to monogamous, heterosexual couples within a legal marriage." Any hugging and kissing that got the Texas church upset could not, IMO, be considered to be "genital sexuality".

Those who interpret the Bible to the exclusion of homosexuality (which in my opinion is indisputable) are not forced to hold these verses to the mutual exclusion of what the Bible plainly teaches is sin.

And IMO, the Bible also plainly teaches that the entire concept of "sin" is outdated.

 

[Smoke]

Without seeing the video/photo display in question, it's hard to tell what it actually was. I know that the sister of the deceased told at least one reporter that its content has been blown out of proportion, and it didn't show the "gay hugging and kissing" that people have claimed.

I haven't seen any indication at all that the video montage was objectionable in any way. In fact, the church was taking care of putting it together. While they were doing that, church members saw photos of men holding hands and kissing. Nobody has reported that the family insisted on certain photos being included, just that church members saw some photos they thought were objectionable. It was then that they became aware the deceased was gay, and decided not to host the funeral.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A quick look at ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance reveals two right off the bat:

- the Alliance of Baptists specifically affirms their belief that homosexuality is not sinful, and is vocal in its support for same-sex marriage.

- the American Baptist Churches "affirm supportive friendships that are emotionally intimate, but reserve genital sexuality to monogamous, heterosexual couples within a legal marriage." Any hugging and kissing that got the Texas church upset could not, IMO, be considered to be "genital sexuality".

There is no statement on the Alliance of Baptists' website that indicates that they believe the Bible to be the perfect written Word of God - What We Believe.

No such statement can be found on the American Baptists' website, either. American Baptist Churches USA

And IMO, the Bible also plainly teaches that the entire concept of "sin" is outdated.

That's funny! :yes: :biglaugh: