Church Will Not Hold Gay Service

[madhatter85]

So God created lust and fornication (though only heterosexual lust and fornication, mind you) on purpose?

there is opposition in all things for people to choose thier own path.

darn i tried not to bring religion into this..... so no more religious stuff! merely science and facts!

 

[Bishka]

blah blah blah, look at the laws, and tell me they don't mimic most of the ten commandments.

Blah..Blah..Blah...

Look at the facts MH. You are running on your opinions. And if they did mimic the ten commandments, so what? Rhat doesn't mean this is a Christians country.

 

[madhatter85]

Blah..Blah..Blah...

Look at the facts MH. You are running on your opinions. And if they did mimic the ten commandments, so what? Rhat doesn't mean this is a Christians country.

again, lets try and leave religion out of this subject, wthat's why i put it in this forum because religious views will skew the whole purpose of this argument.

 

[Bishka]

merely science and facts!

Which you've shown none of.

Besides this thread isn't on homosexuality, it's on whether the Church should hold a gay service.

I say, if they agreed to in the first place, then yes. They choose who the hold their funerals for. IF they pull out because they find out a person was gay, that is disgusting!

 

[Bishka]

again, lets try and leave religion out of this subject, wthat's why i put it in this forum because religious views will skew the whole purpose of this argument.

This is not your thread, this is Rocka's thread. Look at what your debating.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

there is no proof they naturaly exist, show it to me.

Homosexual people exist, don't you agree?

Personally, I don't consider supernatural causes to be valid, but if you want to believe that God made each homosexual person the way they are, you're free to do so.

That was not in the design of our human nature no.

And how do you think THAT should be reflected in secular law?

blah blah blah, look at the laws, and tell me they don't mimic most of the ten commandments.

In most places,

- it is legal to have gods before the Lord thy God
- it is legal to make idols
- it is legal to use the name of the Lord in vain
- it is legal to not keep the Sabbath holy
- it is legal to dishonour your mother and/or father
- it is legal to commit adultery
- it is legal to bear false witness (in most situations)
- it is legal to covet anything you darn well please

That leaves us with:

- you shall not murder
- you shall not steal

... which are common to every system of laws from Hammurabai on down, including ones that had no contact whatsoever with Abrahamic religion.

 

[madhatter85]

This is not your thread, this is Rocka's thread. Look at what your debating.

oops haha wrogn thread! sorry Rocka, i'm on two gay threads at once and it gets confusing who i'm arguing with hahaha

 

[Storm]

there is no proof they naturaly exist, show it to me.

It occurs in nature; it is therefore, by definition, natural.

blah blah blah, look at the laws, and tell me they don't mimic most of the ten commandments.

OK.

First Commandment: I am the Lord thy God. THou shalt have no other Gods before Me. Thou shlat not make graven idols, etc.

First Amendment – Freedom of religion, speech, press, and peaceable assembly as well as the right to petition the government. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.Second Commandment: Don't take God's name in Vain.
Second Ammendment: the right to keep and bear arms.

Third Commandment: Observe the Sabbath (see First Amendment)
Third Amendment: Protection from the quartering of troops.

Fourth Commandment: Honor thy father and mother.
Fourth Amendment: Protection from unreasonabvle search and seizure.

Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill. (See Second Amendment)
Fifth Amendment: Due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, private property.

Sixth Commandment: Thou shalt not commit adultery
Sixth Amendment: Trial by jury and other rights of the accused

Seventh Commandment: Thou shalt not steal (OK, this one matches American law. Also every other system of law ever created.)
Seventh Amendment: Civil trial by jury

Eighth Commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness (also in accordance with just about all law)
Eighth Amendment: Prohibition of excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment. (IOW, no stoning people to death, a Biblical favorite.)

Ninth/ tenth Commandment: Thou shalt not covet (see Capitalism)
Ninth Amendment: Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
Tenth Amendment: Powers of states and people. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.Source: Wiki - 10 Commandments and United States Bill of Rights.

 

[MaddLlama]

there is no proof they naturaly exist, show it to me.

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Homosexuality in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, even if there was no evidence that it was "natural" what difference would it make? Do you reject everything that isn't natural, like cars, plastic, eyeglasses, computers and butter in a tub? Are only things that are "natural" acceptable to God? If so, then he must not find anything acceptable, as most of the people living completely "natural" lives are aboriginal.

 

[madhatter85]

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Homosexuality in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, even if there was no evidence that it was "natural" what difference would it make? Do you reject everything that isn't natural, like cars, plastic, eyeglasses, computers and butter in a tub? Are only things that are "natural" acceptable to God? If so, then he must not find anything acceptable, as most of the people living completely "natural" lives are aboriginal.

again, we are talking about humans.

and you're taking it out of the bounds of this topic. it's a choice to make, i choose to accept automobiles, and butter in a tub.

choices, choices, choices....... can't seem to escape them darnit...

 

[Bishka]

choices, choices, choices....... can't seem to escape them darnit...

Again I ask, when did you choose to be attracted to women?

 

[MaddLlama]

again, we are talking about humans.

and you're taking it out of the bounds of this topic. it's a choice to make, i choose to accept automobiles, and butter in a tub.

choices, choices, choices....... can't seem to escape them darnit...

Humans aren't animals?

 

[madhatter85]

Humans aren't animals?

no, our minds are much more evolved than animals. (except the dolphin, the only thing that separates us from them are opposable thumbs.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no, our minds are much more evolved than animals. (except the dolphin, the only thing that separates us from them are opposable thumbs.)

Not "souls"?

I saw a documentary last week about how they're trying to figure out if Caribbean Reef Squids use language; there's not as much difference between us and the animals as you think.

 

[madhatter85]

Not "souls"?

I saw a documentary last week about how they're trying to figure out if Caribbean Reef Squids use language; there's not as much difference between us and the animals as you think.

key words - they are trying to figure it out
Anwyays, back on topic, take it to my thread in the non-religious section

 

[madhatter85]

Not "souls"?

I saw a documentary last week about how they're trying to figure out if Caribbean Reef Squids use language; there's not as much difference between us and the animals as you think.

also you think animals don;t have souls? in the bible it even states that everything was created in the spirit before it was created in the flesh. try again.


oh wait ur an athiest, i forgot, not even humans have spirits. thats right.

 

[Mister_T]

How is it not a valid argument?

yes i think lifetime celibacy is wrong, i think you should be celibate only untill you are married. but that is my opinion.

It's not valid because there are parts of the Bible that support and praise acts of not procreating (celibacy). If procreation is your argument, why aren't you harping on St. Paul or Jesus?

too bad it's human nature to procreate and replenish the earth. hence the overwhelming evidence that opposite-sex attraction is written into our DNA, into iur ANATOMY. but ignore that. you want to try and prove thigns wrong. which you cant

Now you're contradicting yourself: Opposite sex attraction is written into our DNA? You've been quite adament about attraction being a choice....

 

[madhatter85]

It's not valid because there are parts of the Bible that support and praise acts of not procreating (celibacy). If procreation is your argument, why aren't you harping on St. Paul or Jesus?

Now you're contradicting yourself: Opposite sex attraction is written into our DNA? You've been quite adament about attraction being a choice....

eh, i did word that wrong, i meant the fact that we procreate through reproduction. and i edited my post to reflect that

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

key words - they are trying to figure it out
Anwyays, back on topic, take it to my thread in the non-religious section

Heh. I don't think flashing squids belong in the "is homosexuality a choice?" thread either.

also you think animals don;t have souls? in the bible it even states that everything was created in the spirit before it was created in the flesh. try again.

I may have missed the exact Mormon theology on the issue, but your belief is definitely not a universal belief within Christianity... not even amongst denominations that believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't think the issue is as clear-cut as you suggest.

oh wait ur an athiest, i forgot, not even humans have spirits. thats right.

I have spirits. My favourite ones come from the Isle of Islay.

 

[rocka21]

Not really. All of the less formal (i.e. not full-blown mass) funerals I've been to had an opportunity for anyone to walk up to the lectern and say a few words about the deceased. IMO, a microphone for anyone to use is a reasonable and normal request.

And as I pointed out earlier, the Turtle Creek Chorale is not an "openly gay choir"; their membership is open to all. If you're worried about the image they'd project, have a look at the chorus' web site.

Also:

- do you think the idea of a microphone was sprung on the church right before the funeral?
- if you think it was a last-minute request, do you think the family would have considered it a "deal-breaker"?

Educate - Celebrating a positive image of the gay community and partnering with artists and organizations that share our values and mission.

from the choirs website.

gay choir, gay speaker, gay man, gay pictures.

the family is demanding this service be held there, but the church staff cannot speak?

the man did not belong to the chruch, but his brother was on staff. they agree to do his service and then bring questionable pics for a video, a choir that promotes positive image of the gay community, the leader of the choir to do the service, and an open mic.......