Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[nPeace]

Ill-informed nonsense.
The medical consensus is that there is no "consciousness" before around 25 weeks.
88% of abortions take place under 10 weeks. 94% under 12 weeks. Only 1% are after 20 weeks The majority of those in later stages are clinical terminations on the grounds of foetal abnormality. (UK National Statistics)

This post evidently contains the misinformation.
There is no medical consensus supporting your claim. Link.
"Only 1% are after 20 weeks" is in the US alone, and does not cover the 73 million induced abortions which take place worldwide each year.
According to the World Health Organization, “around 73 million induced abortions take place worldwide each year.”
As of February 2021, there have been over 62 million legal surgical and medical abortions in the United States.

The statistics are conflicting, but that's expected as the numbers decrease.

Nonetheless, mathematical calculations based on this still would not tell us the percentage of those, say ?10 million outside the US, killed after 20 weeks, but how many is 1% in the US... 1 million... 2 million...?
It would be high though, based on this...
Worldwide, 25 million unsafe abortions (45% of all abortions) occurred every year between 2010 and 2014, according to a new study by WHO and the Guttmacher Institute published today in The Lancet. The majority of unsafe abortions, or 97%, occurred in developing countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

However, since 20 weeks is no longer agreed on... if it ever was, that percentage increases enormously considering those murdered after 12 weeks.

Not to stray from the topic, if you want to get into this, we can probably discuss it further on this thread.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which society?
Don't twist the law though.
Responsibility towards one's children belongs to the parent.

Parents are stewards of their children, not their owners.

Parents safeguard the rights of their children until the children are old enough to exercise their rights themselves. Trying to deny a child's rights or selfishly act against the child's rights is an abrogation of parental responsibility.

If they commit a crime, or break the law, then it becomes an issue for law to deal with.
Which law outlaws male circumcision?

Do you think I've been talking about the law? I've been talking about moral responsibility and what I personally would need to see to support your rights.

Anyone who imposes their religion on their child AND demands their own freedom to practice religion as they see fit is a hypocrite. This is still the case if they're technically a law-abiding hypocrite.

How about the Islamic State society? Do you accept their right to religious freedom?

Are you high or something?

 

[Father Heathen]

Sorry, but are you are an Atheist? You don't get to tell me what's wrong. Decide that for yourself and your kids.. if you want.

Your perverse superstitions don't justify mutilating the genitals of innocent, defenseless children.

 

[nPeace]

You've always been pleasant towards me.
I assume this isn't just the result of fading memory.

I'm always pleasant to everyone, even when I am punching them.

I wasn't referring to you Revoltingest.
In this life, some people are accused wrongfully. If that's never happened to you before, I'm glad for you.

 

[KWED]

Sorry, but are you are an Atheist?

Irrelevant (although it does seem that atheists often have a more coherent and consistent moral framework than religionists).

You don't get to tell me what's wrong. Decide that for yourself and your kids.. if you want.

Au contraire. You brought the subject up and asked "is that wrong?", so you are inviting replies.
But why would you even want to drive pins through your infant's soft flesh? Seems utterly bizarre.

Anyway, you do get told what is right and wrong by all sorts of people, including atheists. Or if an atheist copper stopped you for speeding, would you tell him that his lack of belief meant he had no authority over you?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm always pleasant to everyone, even when I am punching them.

I wasn't referring to you Revoltingest.
In this life, some people are accused wrongfully. If that's never happened to you before, I'm glad for you.

I get accused of various things all the time.
But such things are useful if one sees them
as an opportunity for correction or mischief.
(I prefer the latter.)

 

[KWED]

I'm obtuse.

Quite an acute observation.

 

[KWED]

I admit wondering once what it would be like to have a foreskin. Is it like flying in an airplane?

Yes, only more so. And different.

 

[KWED]

especially with opponents I clobber.

Reminds me of Denis Healy's quip about debating with Geoffrey Howe: "Like being savaged by a dead sheep.”

 

[Revoltingest]

Quite an acute observation.

I have an acute case of obtuseness.

 

[stvdv]

Late term abortions are rare, and very typically and mostly a necessity to preserve the life of the mother. Also, regardless, self awareness doesn't happen until many months after birth.
And, regardless, women will get them done so I'd rather have someone who actually trained to do them performing the procedure than some black market, back alley hack.

Of course, I agree. IMO better not make it any more difficult for these women than it is already. Much better to support and help them than giving them guilt feelings

But my point was not about "women should or should not abort", That's totally up to them imo. Probably a tough decision for them, and none of my business, and definitely not to tell them. And if someone blames the women he should blame the father too (he is as much responsible)

My point was that @Wildswanderer had a valid point. If circumcision is determined to be not right then better think twice about other things too, like abortion (in the context of harming, hurting a young embodied soul). And there will be dozens of other ways that people harm kids and unborn children

For me impossible to say it's right or wrong, generally. I'm grateful I don't live in the Middle Ages with all the savages plundering. The West improved quite a bit, even with some practices that are not optimal. Evolution takes time.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Circumcised men have to use lube in order to masturbate. Intact men do not.
Is the inside of the foreskin or the palm of the hand more like the inside of a vagina?
Studies have shown that women often find giving circumcised men manual and oral relief more of a hassle than intact.
Also, this male trope of being able to last longer is not borne out by women who usually prefer more time and effort on foreplay rather than more time on penetration.
I understand that men whose genitals have been mutilated as infants want to find some post hoc justification though - both for their own peace of mind and to avoid resentment against parents, but there really isn't any.

You're making blanket statements based on nothing more than assumption. You MIGHT be right, but no one has any way of knowing for sure. True, uncircumcised men may have to use lube more often that men who aren't. But the truth is that you have no idea whether or not using lube makes the sensation in any way worse. It MIGHT actually make it feel better. And there are plenty of men who suffer from premature ejaculation who would definitely think that lasting longer would be a benefit, and their partners in bed would agree.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, just that there's no way to know if you're actually right.

 

[KWED]

I'm not too sensistive but can you at least SPELL THE ******* WORD RIGHT!

Check my edit.
I fixed it.

I have too admit, you to are just two funny. But they're are some who won't like what you did their. There to uptight.

 

[stvdv]

"Genital mutilation of infants is ok, cuz abortion" has to be one of the most bonkers religious whataboutery arguments yet.

Strange conclusion you make. I do not agree. But you are fre to have a different opinion

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My point was that @Wildswanderer had a valid point. If circumcision is determined to be not right then better think twice about other things too, like abortion (in the context of harming, hurting a young embodied soul). And there will be dozens of other ways that people harm kids and unborn children

Abortion isn't like murdering a consciously aware person, especially when it is most frequently and typically performed. If these have "embodied souls," natural miscarriages terminate vastly more pregnancies than abortions do.
Circumcision is done on those who will eventually become aware of what was done to them.

 

[nPeace]

Parents are stewards of their children, not their owners.

Parents safeguard the rights of their children until the children are old enough to exercise their rights themselves. Trying to deny a child's rights or selfishly act against the child's rights is an abrogation of parental responsibility.

If you don't believe you are responsible for your children, that's understandable to me.

Do you think I've been talking about the law? I've been talking about moral responsibility and what I personally would need to see to support your rights.

Moral responsibility?
I still don't know what those are, from the Atheist's viewpoint.
I know what mine are.

Anyone who imposes their religion on their child AND demands their own freedom to practice religion as they see fit is a hypocrite. This is still the case if they're technically a law-abiding hypocrite.

Okay then. So why are you pointing fingers?
Isn't that the real definition of hypocrite?

Are you high or something?

That's a personal attack, but I am not going to report you this time.

 

[stvdv]

What about removing the entire penis? Is that still ok?

Another strange and extreme conlusion you read too much into my words. I never said nor implied anything like this

Maybe below line you won't misinterpret:

I think it's best to stop circumcision completely, unless there is a medical necessity for it

 

[KWED]

And ignoring that this is often not the reality, and in fact babies are killed right before they could be born naturally.

Only in the case of extreme medical necessity. 96% of abortions take place before 12 weeks. And the vast majority are drug-induced miscarriages before 10 weeks.

When god decrees that a woman miscarry before 10 weeks, is he also a "murderer"?

 

[KWED]

You're making blanket statements based on nothing more than assumption.

Wrong. I am making statements based on reason and evidence.

You MIGHT be right, but no one has any way of knowing for sure. True, uncircumcised men may have to use lube more often that men who aren't.

They do. It is a fact.

But the truth is that you have no idea whether or not using lube makes the sensation in any way worse.

I never claimed it did.

And there are plenty of men who suffer from premature ejaculation who would definitely think that lasting longer would be a benefit, and their partners in bed would agree.

And they are entirely free and welcome to opt for circumcision as a solution - as adults. However, that is irrelevant to the point in hand ('scuse the pun), which is circumcising infants for no reason.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have too admit, you to are just two funny. But they're are some who won't like what you did their. There to uptight.

You're spelling is most cromulent.