Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

And yet God demanded it anyway.
I don't think we should always look at theological reasons as purely religious rituals...I'm sure that the variety of reasons we know today we're also the case back then. It may have been that non circumcised tribes used their penises for an evil that circumcised males were not able to or, perhaps males evolved a foreskin sometime after the fall? Perhaps a foreskin became part of the mark of Cain...who knows?
I just know personally...better without and I do not in any way feel violated having had the decision made for me. In fact, I feel (and always have felt even before Christianity came anywhere near my life as a teenager) cleaner and superior being circumcised to be honest.

No, it is only claimed in the Old Testament that God required this. The God of the Hindus did not require this. In fact only the Abrahamic God seems to have a problem with foreskins.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's not what I am saying at all. Quite far from actually.
Satan controls this system.
Do you understand what authority God has in that?

It appears to me Jehovah has no real authority anymore, especially outside of America. I don't see this Satan controlling things either.
Unless, that is, it's a sick ploy that intentionally made more secular nations WAY better off than the ones most into Abraham's God.

 

[Revoltingest]

Those "ethics and legal behavior" are 1) always changing; 2) oftentimes not in keeping with justice, and more importantly 3) often against a higher source of wisdom.

"Higher sources of wisdom" demonstrate great diversity
of behavior, running the full spectrum from good to evil.
If ethics & wisdom are the goal, teach those.
But to teach religious myths & rituals (eg, wearing this
hat, not eating that animal, believing that person was
the first created) is irrelevant to good behavior & not
even wrong (IMO).

So to decide that every Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc., should learn and abide by these, is to say that these are supreme.
Imagine one of those groups telling you God is supreme, and all should abide by his "ethics & legal behavior".
Are you willing to?

I don't understand the question.
But I advise all to behave ethically...simply put, respect
the rights of others. Let's consider where a major
religion fails in this area....
With approval of the major Christian church of Russia,
Putin is killing & driving away civilians from Ukraine in
a war against the west for Russian spiritual purity.
I have many other examples from USA, Israel, Iran,
Indonesia, etc, etc.

 

[Koldo]

And yet God demanded it anyway.
I don't think we should always look at theological reasons as purely religious rituals...I'm sure that the variety of reasons we know today we're also the case back then. It may have been that non circumcised tribes used their penises for an evil that circumcised males were not able to or,

What evil would that be?

perhaps males evolved a foreskin sometime after the fall?

We also know for a fact the fall didn't happen. It is not a historical event.

Perhaps a foreskin became part of the mark of Cain...who knows?

Why would it be?

I just know personally...better without and I do not in any way feel violated having had the decision made for me. In fact, I feel (and always have felt even before Christianity came anywhere near my life as a teenager) cleaner and superior being circumcised to be honest.

You just got used to it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It appears to me Jehovah has no real authority anymore, especially outside of America. I don't see this Satan controlling things either.
Unless, that is, it's a sick ploy that intentionally made more secular nations WAY better off than the ones most into Abraham's God.

Don't be fooled. Stan is evil:

 

[nPeace]

Because we know for a fact that boys in general don't die or lose their penises if their foreskin is intact. In other words, it is and was never necessary.

Ah. I understand how you are looking at it.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.

That's good, because it means you realize... hopefully, that man is not a product of blind processes, but a product of design.
Everything works as they should... right down to the foreskin.

However, your answer is like this answer...
"I saw a man slaughter 5,000 healthy sheep, and it was not necessary, because all the sheep were walking about, eating, drinking, excreting, and bleating.
Sheep don't generally just drop down and die."

So the comparison - You don't know why the sheep were killed. You would have to get that information from the one who did the slaughtering.
There was a necessary reason... in this scenario.
You don't know it was not necessary to circumcise the Nation of Israel.
To know the reason, you would have to ask God.

 

[nPeace]

It appears to me Jehovah has no real authority anymore, especially outside of America. I don't see this Satan controlling things either.
Unless, that is, it's a sick ploy that intentionally made more secular nations WAY better off than the ones most into Abraham's God.

We'll see.

 

[nPeace]

"Higher sources of wisdom" demonstrate great diversity
of behavior, running the full spectrum from good to evil.
If ethics & wisdom are the goal, teach those.
But to teach religious myths & rituals (eg, wearing this
hat, not eating that animal, believing that person was
the first created) is irrelevant to good behavior & not
even wrong (IMO).

I don't understand the question.
But I advise all to behave ethically...simply put, respect
the rights of others. Let's consider where a major
religion fails in this area....
With approval of the major Christian church of Russia,
Putin is killing & driving away civilians from Ukraine in
a war against the west for Russian spiritual purity.
I have many other examples from USA, Israel, Iran,
Indonesia, etc, etc.

I can say that my sinful nature is not easy to control. With knowledge of God - who is real - though, and my desire to please him, I have been able to have self-control in many areas of life... but that's just me.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can say that my sinful nature is not easy to control. With knowledge of God - who is real - though, and my desire to please him, I have been able to have self-control in many areas of life... but that's just me.

I commit no sins.
It's not just the lack of sin in atheism.
I'm also that virtuous.

 

[nPeace]

I commit no sins.
It's not just the lack of sin in atheism.
I'm also that virtuous.

Ah. Sinless men - Atheists.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah. Sinless men - Atheists.

While none of us have any sin at all, some
have many more times of it than others.

 

[Koldo]

Ah. I understand how you are looking at it.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.

That's good, because it means you realize... hopefully, that man is not a product of blind processes, but a product of design.

Erm.... Nope.

Everything works as they should... right down to the foreskin.

Erm... Not really. I see a lot of flaws as far as the human body goes. Like the optic nerve and limbs not regerenating, and crappy skin regenaration. But since evolution isn't... well... guided by anyone, it is only natural everything ain't going to be perfect.

However, your answer is like this answer...
"I saw a man slaughter 5,000 healthy sheep, and it was not necessary, because all the sheep were walking about, eating, drinking, excreting, and bleating.
Sheep don't generally just drop down and die."

So the comparison - You don't know why the sheep were killed. You would have to get that information from the one who did the slaughtering.
There was a necessary reason... in this scenario.
You don't know it was not necessary to circumcise the Nation of Israel.
To know the reason, you would have to ask God.

I would say that any god that requires circumcision of anyone is nothing more than a fabrication of human imagination. To think that the creator of the universe wants people to chop off their children's foreskins... Yeah, I don't buy that. So I don't see the point of asking anything to such a god.
I am curious, however, as to how a human came up with circumcision though and why others tagged along.
Probably a crazy king?

 

[nPeace]

Erm.... Nope.



Erm... Not really. I see a lot of flaws as far as the human body goes. Like the optic nerve and limbs not regerenating, and crappy skin regenaration. But since evolution isn't... well... guided by anyone, it is only natural everything ain't going to be perfect.



I would say that any god that requires circumcision of anyone is nothing more than a fabrication of human imagination. To think that the creator of the universe wants people to chop off their children's foreskins... Yeah, I don't buy that. So I don't see the point of asking anything to such a god.
I am curious, however, as to how a human came up with circumcision though and why others tagged along.
Probably a crazy king?

How about medical reasons, as was pointed out to you, like 100 times.

 

[Koldo]

How about medical reasons, as was pointed out to you, like 100 times.

There are no medical reasons that would justify circumcision in general.
Didn't you just say we would have to ask God why he commanded circumcision though? Have you just asked him and he answered back or what?

 

[Mock Turtle]

If it wasn't God's mistake, I suppose it was just making work for idle hands.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can say that my sinful nature is not easy to control. With knowledge of God - who is real - though, and my desire to please him, I have been able to have self-control in many areas of life... but that's just me.

That's the paradox of Christianity. You become so obsessed with sin that the temptation gets turned up several notches. But take it from me, without sin it's so much easier to not be tempted by things you shouldn't do.
That's because it's not really morality to do what you're told. You have to evaluate everything through the lens of Scripture. But when it's morality you just don't do it because you're a good person. When it's morality in action we see other people being considered first rather than what a book says or even what god or a king says. And there's no score keeper involved. We want to do good so we do good things and don't do bad things. That's morality, and it's easier after you've thought about it instead of considering only what you're told to think about it. You develop a better inner sense of it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We'll see.

I'm confident we won't.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

To outlaw religious infant circumcision would be dictating the terms by which the Jewish religion is allowed to exist. I think Judaism is too established to turn around now and demand that an explicit requirement of the religion be postponed or even outright abolished. Who are you to demand that?

It’s in the Bible that you can stone your disobedient kid, without age limit. Should we let Jews obey that too?

 

[Sheldon]

So you are saying circumcision is not necessary unless medical experts deem it necessary. Right?
So I am asking why do you say it is "an unnecessary medical procedure"... how do you know it is unnecessary?
In other words, who decides when it is necessary, and how do you know that it's not necessary otherwise?

Have I confused you?

I think you have confused yourself, who do you suggest should deem what is and is not medically necessary, if not medical experts?

It's pretty simple, if there is a medical necessity for it, then I would accept it is morally justifiable, if there is no medical necessity then I would not accept it is morally acceptable, and see no reason why children can be left inviolate until they are can give informed consent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think you have confused yourself, who do you suggest should deem what is and is not medically necessary, if not medical experts?

It's pretty simply, if there is a medical necessity for it, then I would accept it is morally justifiable, if there is no medical necessity then I would not accept it is morally acceptable, and see no reason why children can be left inviolate until they are can give informed consent.

We can't let them wait until they are adult, no sane would cut off the tip of . . .

Oh. Never mind.