Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, I know. And I don't wrote it to mean that I am right and you are wrong.

Don't worry, I don't see your words that way. There are a lot of Torath Mosheh Jews who see the age of us living outside our homeland coming to an end, and that is not a bad thing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yeah, to me that is wrong.

Yeah, but from our perspective we Torath Mosheh Jews are in exile and it is to be expected as long as we exist outside our own context.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, but from our perspective we Torath Mosheh Jews are in exile and it is to be expected as long as we exist outside our own context.

Except that the days of exile ended in the year 1950. An exile is a forced absence. That force was removed then by Israel:

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm

After 70 years it is rather difficult to claim that one is still forced outside of Israel. It now appears to be a choice. What does that have to do with forcing circumcision on those that cannot choose? People conflate the fact that they are parents with ownership of their children. We are merely caregivers. If anything our children are loaned to us and it is our duty to protect them until they can protect themselves.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Except that the days of exile ended in the year 1950. An exile is a forced absence. That force was removed then by Israel:

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm

After 70 years it is rather difficult to claim that one is still forced outside of Israel. It now appears to be a choice. What does that have to do with forcing circumcision on those that cannot choose? People conflate the fact that they are parents with ownership of their children. We are merely caregivers. If anything our children are loaned to us and it is our duty to protect them until they can protect themselves.

That is because you don't understand the Torath Mosheh concept of being in exile which in Hebrew is called (גלות). A Galuth, as defined by all ancient Torah based sources, isn't just being physically exiled from the land of Israel it is also when a Torah based context is not created in the land of Israel on all levels with all Jews taking part in it. The current situaiton of Torah Mosheh Jews world-wide, including here in Israel, is under governments that have non-Torah based laws, concepts, contexts, and are governed by foreign money and foreign interest.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is because you don't understand the Torath Mosheh concept of being in exile which in Hebrew is called (גלות). A Galuth, as defined by all ancient Torah based sources, isn't just being physically exiled from the land of Israel it is also when a Torah based context is not created in the land of Israel on all levels with all Jews taking part in it. The current situaiton of Torah Mosheh Jews world-wide, including here in Israel, is under governments that have non-Torah based laws, concepts, contexts, and are governed by foreign money and foreign interest.

I see. you are advocating for a Torah based dictatorship. Hopefully that never happens.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

To prove the point that Torah Mosheh Jews are still in Galuth/Exile. The following statements are said by Torath Mosheh Jews three times a day from more than 2,000 years ago and still right now.

These were being said during the 2nd Temple Period and they are said by Torath Mosheh Jews around the world even now. If we were not in exile none of use would be saying these statements four times a day.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's gotta be the dumbest rabbit trail I've seen in a long time. Congratulations!
Everything you have mentioned is much more harmful than circumcision.

Glad to see you recognize the fault in your own argument.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. you are advocating for a Torah based dictatorship. Hopefully that never happens.

Nope. A Torah based nation only works if all Jews living in the land of Israel want it and put it into place collectively. That is the only way it has ever happened in the past and the only way it will happen in the future.

 

[Subduction Zone]

To prove the point that Torah Mosheh Jews are still in Galuth/Exile. The following statements are said by Torath Mosheh Jews three times a day from more than 2,000 years ago and still right now.

These were being said during the 2nd Temple Period and they are said by Torath Mosheh Jews around the world even now. If we were not in exile none of use would be saying these statements four times a day.

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That is not proof. Just because you repeat a phrase is not even evidence that you are in exile. It only shows that you may believe that you are in exile. Those are not the same thing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Hopefully that never happens.

Hopefully your misconception of what you think we Torath Mosheh Jews about never happens and that Jews worldwide can escape those who are will to create such misconceptions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see. you are advocating for a Torah based dictatorship. Hopefully that never happens.

Well, yes. But to them it is a free choice of how they want to base their laws. I wouldn't like to live that way, but if they can achieve that without to much violence all the power to them. All states rely on violence and that wouldn't be unique to them.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That is not proof. Just because you repeat a phrase is not even evidence that you are in exile. It only shows that you may believe that you are in exile. Those are not the same thing.

It is if I know the langauge the concept originally came from - because it is more than 2,000 years old. You don't have to beleive me. Just show me a Torath Mosheh source that supports your claim. The best one would be the Hebrew Tanakh and the Talmud. I will wait.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is not proof. Just because you repeat a phrase is not even evidence that you are in exile. It only shows that you may believe that you are in exile. Those are not the same thing.

No, you are still advocating for a dictatorship since you insist on "Torah based laws". Israel right now is a Jewish state. It is just not the extreme Jewish state that you want.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, yes. But to them it is a free choice of how they want to base their laws. I wouldn't like to live that way, but if they can achieve that without to much violence all the power to them. All states rely on violence and that wouldn't be unique to them.

Exactly, because virtually every western power came about by force in one form or another so it is like the pot calling the kettle a sponge.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, yes. But to them it is a free choice of how they want to base their laws. I wouldn't like to live that way, but if they can achieve that without to much violence all the power to them. All states rely on violence and that wouldn't be unique to them.

One can choose to install a dictatorship, sometimes people do not realize that is what they are doing. But once in place it is still a dictatorship. I do not see how one could have "Torah based laws" without a dictatorship in place since one would have to get rid of all individual rights. The Torah is as bad as the Quran or the Bible when it comes to laws based on those sources.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is not proof. Just because you repeat a phrase is not even evidence that you are in exile. It only shows that you may believe that you are in exile. Those are not the same thing.

Very funny. In exile is not like gravity. It is a social construct and has no objective evidence. To them they are in exile, because how they believe. You just believe differently to the effect that you believe it has to do with proof and evidence.
Learn to separate natural facts and social facts.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, you are still advocating for a dictatorship since you insist on "Torah based laws". Israel right now is a Jewish state. It is just not the extreme Jewish state that you want.

If that is your self-imposed defintion of a group of people who make the free-will decision collectively as a nation for something that all of them want on their own, then I will have to say that your opinion sounds like a dictatorship. I.e. you are searching for some way to define all those who disagree with you as something that you yourself are imposing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly, because virtually every western power came about by force in one form or another so it is like the pot calling the kettle a sponge.

All governments have to run by force, but not all governments are dictatorships. Some governments preserve individual rights. Dictatorships tend to not to do that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

One can choose to install a dictatorship, sometimes people do not realize that is what they are doing.

So, in other words you are saying that you are the only one in the world who knows what system of government everyone in the world must follow and if it doesn't meet your personal criteria it is invalid. That sounds you are are making yourself into a dictator. That is a dangerous view.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

One can choose to install a dictatorship, sometimes people do not realize that is what they are doing. But once in place it is still a dictatorship. I do not see how one could have "Torah based laws" without a dictatorship in place since one would have to get rid of all individual rights. The Torah is as bad as the Quran or the Bible when it comes to laws based on those sources.

Yeah, your subjectivity is so strong in you that you believe you have evidence, proof and what not.
The key word is see. You can't see this. It is in your brain as an in the end moral evolution of good and bad. You don't see that. You feel it.