Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sorry, but in this matter you have tipped your hand that you will not accept evidence. There is no point in continuing. I can say the same about you. All you have are claims that I did not provide evidence, I gave one clear example. I could have gone one but when one does not acknowledge evidence then that person has failed the burden of proof.

Evidence is based on external sensory observation or scientific instruments. Please do that for beneficial. Or you use a different understanding of evidence. It is that simple. Evidence is not what you feel and label as beneficial.
If you can give evidence as I explained it for beneficial, I will learn.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, I am merely going by your description of what you want for Israel. Israel is already a Jewish run country. It is just not the dictatorship that you seem to want.

Again, making up terms that I didn't use. What I described has nothing to do with a "Jewish run country." A Jewish run country can exist anywhere in the world and have nothing to do with a galuth, as ancient Torath Mosheh sources describe it. For example, the Himyar Empire in southern Arabia was once a Jewish run empire that didn't resolve the galuth just like the modern state of Israel has not.

Again, you don't know what Torath Mosheh is and you are pretending like you do. That sounds like a dictorship to me. Next you will continue to pretend as what you personally want the world to be is THE way it should be and that your concepts, and only yours, are the right ones.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

From my understanding the Torah is the same as the first five books of the Christian Bible. It has some very very immoral laws in it. I don't see how one could institute those laws without using a dictatorship.

Your understanding is wrong. That is why a better solution would have been to ask what it was rather than assume.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

.......same as the first five books of the Christian Bible

Your statement here proves what I stated earlier that your understanding comes from a western Christian background.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your statement here proves what I stated earlier that you understanding comes from a western Christian background.

One thing that took me some time to learn is to spot my own culture as exactly that - culture. But some non-religious can't do that, because they as it appears to me believe that they are not a product of local culture. They are rational and with evidence, proof and truth. The joke is that all 4 concepts are cultural in some sense.

 

[Sheldon]

Don't worry, I don't see your words that way. There are a lot of Torath Mosheh Jews who see the age of us living outside our homeland coming to an end, and that is not a bad thing.

Why is that a good thing? All I see is another unevidenced assertion.

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah, but from our perspective we Torath Mosheh Jews are in exile and it is to be expected as long as we exist outside our own context.

Well when someone subjectively expect things, they usually bend all facts to pretend it will happen. Not a very compelling argument though.

 

[Sheldon]

That is because you don't understand the Torath Mosheh concept of being in exile which in Hebrew is called (גלות). A Galuth, as defined by all ancient Torah based sources, isn't just being physically exiled from the land of Israel it is also when a Torah based context is not created in the land of Israel on all levels with all Jews taking part in it. The current situaiton of Torah Mosheh Jews world-wide, including here in Israel, is under governments that have non-Torah based laws, concepts, contexts, and are governed by foreign money and foreign interest.

All nations in the post industrialised era are governed to a greater or lesser extent by foreign interest. Whilst they may have justification for paranoia about outside hatred, playing the victim in this way, in order to pretend it is going to bring about a biblical apocalypse is absurd. This is just wish fulfilment.

 

[Sheldon]

To prove the point

Prove, good one...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why is that a good thing? All I see is another unevidenced assertion.

So you can give evidence for good?

 

[Sheldon]

Hopefully your misconception of what you think we Torath Mosheh Jews about never happens and that Jews worldwide can escape those who are will to create such misconceptions.

Can I have that in English please???

 

[Koldo]

So you can give evidence for good?

What do you even mean?

 

[Sheldon]

Exactly, because virtually every western power came about by force in one form or another so it is like the pot calling the kettle a sponge.

So anything is justified if it's been done before? Really?

Maybe we can break this pattern? Perhaps stopping this absurd pretence that some people are blessed by a deity would be a vital step, a vital step in accepting that we can all treat each other as equals legally, and create universal human rights.

Sadly I am not holding my breath, but it seems like a step forward to me, abandoning bigoted and cruel superstitions, that suggests people are not all the same.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Can I have that in English please???

I get it. He was saying as relevant up thread, that he was judge based on other religions not relevant to him.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What do you even mean?

Sheldon wrote: "Why is that a good thing? All I see is another unevidenced assertion."

Notice the bold?

 

[Sheldon]

So, in other words you are saying that you are the only one in the world who knows what system of government everyone in the world must follow

Not even remotely what he said.

and if it doesn't meet your personal criteria it is invalid.

Not even remotely what he said.

That sounds you are are making yourself into a dictator. That is a dangerous view.

it sounds like a pretty obvious straw man fallacy, that you have created to dishonestly misrepresent what he posted.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not even remotely what he said.



Not even remotely what he said.



it sounds like a pretty obvious straw man fallacy, that you have created to dishonestly misrepresent what he posted.

Just give evidence for good.

 

[Koldo]

Sheldon wrote: "Why is that a good thing? All I see is another unevidenced assertion."

Notice the bold?

Yes, but what do you mean when you ask for evidence for 'good'?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, but what do you mean when you ask for evidence for 'good'?

Ask Sheldon as well. He started it.

 

[Sheldon]

Again, you don't know what Torath Mosheh is and you are pretending like you do. That sounds like a dictorship to me.

Since this is a debate forum, why not explain what you mean by the term?

Next you will continue to pretend as what you personally want the world to be is THE way it should be and that your concepts, and only yours, are the right ones.

Pretty sure that is not hat he did, but he is entitled to an opinion on it, whether you like it or not.