Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

Very well put, I must say. I have to say the statement did sound like simple bigotry to me. There is plenty wrong with most human cultures, but those kind of sweeping generalisation's about hundreds of millions of people, usually set alarm bells off.

I will often point out that creationists I am debating do not understand the scientific method or scientific evidence. I am always willing to support my claim and discuss those concepts. For some reason I am almost never taken up on that offer. Hopefully he those just nay saying will do take up their burden of proof.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Why is that a good thing? All I see is another unevidenced assertion.

Because, we Torath Mosheh have had a dream of being in our own context within our homeland since the Galuth started. We have tried things without such a concept (i.e. living in host nations) and it always ends in disaster for us (i.e. a host is only willing to deal with us for so long). The last one saw us losing about 6 million of our own.

I posted the evidence for it earlier when I gave exerts from something that we Torath Mosheh Jews say three times a day. I.e. it is a request that the Galuth end and we Torath Mosheh Jews return to a Torath Mosheh environment. You can literally find it in the Amidah prayer of every see below.

(Translation) Sound the great shofar for our freedom; raise a banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth into our land. Blessed are You Hashem, who gathers the dispersed of His people Israel.

(Translation) Restore our judges as in former times, and our counsellors as it was before; remove from us sorrow and sighing, and reign over us, You alone, Hashem, with kindness and compassion, with correctness and justice. Blessed are You Hashem, King who loves correctness and justice.

(Translation) Dwell in Jerusalem your city, as You have said, and rebuild it forever, quickly in our days. Blessed are You Hashem, who rebuilds Jerusalem.

(Translation) Look with favor, Hashem our Mighty One, on Your people Israel and pay heed to their prayer; restore the service to Your house and accept with love and favor Israel's [Oloth] and prayer; and may the service of Your people Israel always find favor. May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in mercy. Blessed are You Hashem, who restores His Divine Presence to Zion.

Since the Second and even now Torath Mosheh Jews say this three times a day. Why? Because for us the Galuth hasn't ended yet, because simply having a country, run by western laws and cultural norms running it, with Jews in it was never the goal of Torath Mosheh Jews.

If the current situation was an end of a Galuth we wouldn't be still saying this.

So, there you have it - more than 2,000 years of evidence. I hope that helps.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Not even remotely what he said.
Not even remotely what he said.
it sounds like a pretty obvious straw man fallacy, that you have created to dishonestly misrepresent what he posted.

The same way that what I have stated sounds silly to him what he has stated sounds like a dictorship to me. Again, that is all about perspective. You may feel that a government system that works for you is the best thing for the world. The world may feel differently.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So anything is justified if it's been done before? Really?

Ask those who currently do things that have been done before. That is pretty much every human on the planet from the dawn of humanity till now.

Maybe we can break this pattern?

There is no we. There are people who have agendas. That is a reality. You have an agenda in life, your family has an agenda, your country has an angenda, etc. I also have an agenda, my family has an agenda, and my nation has an agenda, etc. I may see your agenda as a pattern that me and mine should avoid, because we have experienced what your agenda, and while you may see mine as something to be broken.

Perhaps stopping this absurd pretence that some people are blessed by a deity would be a vital step, a vital step in accepting that we can all treat each other as equals legally, and create universal human rights.

Given that humans created the idea you described that means you are going to have to dictate what people think and prevent them from coming up ideas you don't like. It sounds like you have a lot of breaking to do in the world. Good luck with that. Besides, there are a number of nations that talk about human rights and then go trample on the people they decide to define as not being human or not human enough. Jim Crow was like that, Eugenics was like that, etc.

Sadly I am not holding my breath, but it seems like a step forward to me, abandoning bigoted and cruel superstitions, that suggests people are not all the same.

Definately do not hold your breath......you need that air. It is important.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Can I have that in English please???

It was written in English. Are you looking for Old English, Middle English, American English, British English, etc.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Then show how it is wrong. Especially when you make the accusation of declaring that the person that you are debating with made an assumption. Claiming that someone assumed something takes on its own burden of proof.

Since you are now asking rather than assuming I will certainly address your question. See the below.

Please note since I am not trying convince you of anything or win a debate, if every Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jew looks at this "discussion" and agree that what I posted matches all ancient and modern Torath Mosheh sources that is all I need on my side. I.e. we all define the terms and everything the same.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Do you know what a poisoning of the well fallacy is?

You keep using it, and an argument from authority fallacy. You may be particularly impressed by your own opinion, but others will probably need more.

I have no impressions about about a view I have. If I were trying to win debate or if I was trying to convince him to do something different then maybe you would have a point.

At the end of the day, all Torath Mosheh Jews seek to live in a Torath Mosheh context. If that means leaving nations that outlaw such then we leave those countries and if they won't let us leave we find ways of surviving them. We have been successfully doing that for the last 2,000 plus years. That addresses both my original comment that he was responding to and the reality. Since, Torath Mosheh Jews have no concept of forcing the non-Torath Mosheh Jewish world of accepting our reality or even having a concern for it then one will have to accept that it is what it is.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Since this is a debate forum, why not explain what you mean by the term?
Pretty sure that is not hat he did, but he is entitled to an opinion on it, whether you like it or not.

I have actually done that in numerous threads. Also, I come from a culture where we have a rule to try not assume we know what a term if we are not familiar with it. For us, those who use the term get to decide what it means to them not us.

Also, not all parts of this forum are debate orientated. This thread for example, the OP has nothing to do with what Torath Mosheh is or isn't so it is not proper for me to insert that here unless I am asked. What was important and in line with the OP was my two questions that were directed at Evangelicalhumanist. Those questions were:

Ehav Ever stated in post 813:

Maybe the real questions are:

1. What constitutes an absolute answer to the OP's question?
2. How far are people on either side willing to go to try enforce their view in reality, outside of a forum discussion?

I ask this because, as a Jew, various new-Jewish nations/people have already gone through this topic with us Jews before. Historically speaking the success rate speaks for itself.​

That is how the dictator bit got started when someone else jumped in and took in that direction.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Poor reasoning and argument, why is his understanding wrong?

Explained it to him already. The posting goes by fast. Sorry, but you will have to keep up.

It all goes back to what I stated to Evangelicalhumanist said:

Ehav4Ever wrote:
Maybe the real questions are:

1. What constitutes an absolute answer to the OP's question?
2. How far are people on either side willing to go to try enforce their view in reality, outside of a forum discussion?

I ask this because, as a Jew, various new-Jewish nations/people have already gone through this topic with us Jews before. Historically speaking the success rate speaks for itself.
​

BTW: You won't like the answer so a debate on that won't go far. Just letting you know.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This is looking more like a matter of definition than of evidence.
For instance, if I define 'morally bad' as that which leads to suffering, the discussion that would follow would be to further develop the definition and barely revolve around any evidence per se.

Yeah, that shows it is subjective as such and for your example depends on what you understand as suffering.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yeah, that shows it is subjective as such and for your example depends on what you understand as suffering.

Exactly. That is exactly what my statements have been about - the subjective nature of the topic. So, for me the only two important aspects of the discussion, for Torath Mosheh Jews like myself who may live locals where this topic is up for legal discussion, are what I asked earlier.

1. What constitutes an absolute answer to the OP's question?
2. How far are people on either side willing to go to try enforce their view in reality, outside of a forum discussion?

The answer to them makes it easier for Torath Mosheh Jews to know where to live and when the exit clock is ticking.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Exactly. That is exactly what my statements have been about - the subjective nature of the topic. So, for me the only two important aspects of the discussion, for Torath Mosheh Jews like myself who may live locals where this topic is up for legal discussion, are what I asked earlier.

1. What constitutes an absolute answer to the OP's question?
2. How far are people on either side willing to go to try enforce their view in reality, outside of a forum discussion?

The answer to them makes it easier for Torath Mosheh Jews to know where to live and when the exit clock is ticking.

Well, don't get this wrong, because I don't consider this queal as between you being a Torath Mosheh Jews and me being neurodiverse. But I do get, what it means to be a minority.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, don't get this wrong, because I don't consider this queal as between you being a Torath Mosheh Jews and me being neurodiverse. But I do get, what it means to be a minority.

I agree with you on that. I even agree with what I understand, and I am open to be corrected, to what neurodiverse is. The idea that people experience and interact with the world around them in many different ways; there is no one "right" way of thinking, learning, and behaving, and differences are not viewed as deficits. Feel free to correct this if it is not a correct definition of neurodiverse.

There was a lot of discussion about something like this in Talmudic times and after. A rabbi by the name of Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon had a number of writings on some similar ideas in a few of his books.

Torath Mosheh is more based on the singularity of how Torah Mosheh Jews got Torah with respect to the thinking that came after that singularity.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree with you on that. I even agree with what I understand, and I am open to be corrected, to what neurodiverse is. The idea that people experience and interact with the world around them in many different ways; there is no one "right" way of thinking, learning, and behaving, and differences are not viewed as deficits. Feel free to correct this if it is not a correct definition of neurodiverse.

There was a lot of discussion about something like this in Talmudic times and after. A rabbi by the name of Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon had a number of writings on some similar ideas in a few of his books.

Torath Mosheh is more based on the singularity of how Torah Mosheh Jews got Torah with respect to the thinking that came after that singularity.

Well, correct my if this is a cultural stereotype I hold as a culture Christian but some aspects of being a Jew to me, seems to lead to a critical mind set of what is right and wrong?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, correct my if this is a cultural stereotype I hold as a culture Christian but some aspects of being a Jew to me, seems to lead to a critical mind set of what is right and wrong?

Not in the way that Christians think of it.

Torath Mosheh claims that the Torah was given, by the Source of Reality, as a national revelation to the entire Israeli nation of a particular generation. That generation was given the option to accept it or reject it. The point of the Torah was/is "instruction" kind of like a real time satelite map gives the ability to find options to a particular location or like trainer, with proven experience, who helps an athelete train for a particular goal. The driver and the athlete at the end of the does the work for a particular goal that has a benefit for them personally and maybe even for their family and beyond. Yet, the benefit they derive doesn't have to be for anyone else.

The reason why Torath Mosheh Jews accepted/accept the "instruction" is because of the act of how it was given and by what it was given. We continue to keep it because it has helped us survive every challenge/exile/conquest/etc. for more than 2,000 years.

Yet, the instruction the source of Torah based Jews are to deal with reality. It is not consideredthe basis for the non-Jewish world to deal with reality. The basis for the non-Jewish world is "considered" to be the 7 mitzvoth, most of which most, rational people do normally without being told about it. I.e. there are some things that simply make sense in life, even wtih all of the differences in cultural normal, regions, and languages.

Thus, if the definiton I found is correct that "The idea that people experience and interact with the world around them in many different ways; there is no one "right" way of thinking, learning, and behaving, and differences are not viewed as deficits." Is correct in many ways, because we are not required to all think the same way, even among us Torath Mosheh Jews. We experience the world differently because we are all born different. Differences are not deficits. I.e. the nations don't have to become Jewish and Torath Mosheh Jews don't have to become like the nations. Being non-Jewish is not a deficit. Being a Torath Mosheh Jew is not a deficit. Thus, I can accept all humans as they are because it makes logical sense in reality while at the same protecting my existance and my ability to exist and survive all attempts to the opposite. For Torath Mosheh Jews, there is no one "right" way of thinking, learning, and behaving in areas that are not halachic in nature. Halakhic issues are no different than social/cultural norms that most normal people in a given culture accept because they have already seen the advantage and benefit of the norm.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, don't get this wrong, because I don't consider this queal as between you being a Torath Mosheh Jews and me being neurodiverse. But I do get, what it means to be a minority.

Just to be clear. I agree that we are not talking about the exact same thing. Of course there is no reason that we should. Yet, I see the value in what neurodiverse is described as being, again IF I have understood what I have seen about it. Of course me not being an expert in neurodiverse would mean that I could easily have a different or even misguided view of it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Just to be clear. I agree that we are not talking about the exact same thing. Of course there is no reason that we should. Yet, I see the value in what neurodiverse is described as being, again IF I have understood what I seen about it. Of course me not being an expert in neurodiverse would mean that I could easily have a different or even misguided view of it.

Let me give you an example of a variant within neurodiverse. Some people do not register the body and facial language of others; i.e. non-verbal communication. Now some of those can be trained have a set of rules for what to do what they see a "sad" face.

So in general because I am high functioning within that spectrum of being neurodiverse, I can in some cases for a limited time fake being normal, neuronormative and follow the norms of who most people do everyday life.
Of course in other cases I am normal, because in those cases my brain functions normally.

 

[Sheldon]

Because, we Torath Mosheh have had a dream of being in our own context within our homeland since the Galuth started. We have tried things without such a concept (i.e. living in host nations) and it always ends in disaster for us (i.e. a host is only willing to deal with us for so long). The last one saw us losing about 6 million of our own.

I posted the evidence for it earlier when I gave exerts from something that we Torath Mosheh Jews say three times a day. I.e. it is a request that the Galuth end and we Torath Mosheh Jews return to a Torath Mosheh environment. You can literally find it in the Amidah prayer of every see below.

View attachment 62633
(Translation) Sound the great shofar for our freedom; raise a banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth into our land. Blessed are You Hashem, who gathers the dispersed of His people Israel.

View attachment 62634
(Translation) Restore our judges as in former times, and our counsellors as it was before; remove from us sorrow and sighing, and reign over us, You alone, Hashem, with kindness and compassion, with correctness and justice. Blessed are You Hashem, King who loves correctness and justice.

View attachment 62635

(Translation) Dwell in Jerusalem your city, as You have said, and rebuild it forever, quickly in our days. Blessed are You Hashem, who rebuilds Jerusalem.

View attachment 62636

(Translation) Look with favor, Hashem our Mighty One, on Your people Israel and pay heed to their prayer; restore the service to Your house and accept with love and favor Israel's [Oloth] and prayer; and may the service of Your people Israel always find favor. May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in mercy. Blessed are You Hashem, who restores His Divine Presence to Zion.

Since the Second and even now Torath Mosheh Jews say this three times a day. Why? Because for us the Galuth hasn't ended yet, because simply having a country, run by western laws and cultural norms running it, with Jews in it was never the goal of Torath Mosheh Jews.

If the current situation was an end of a Galuth we wouldn't be still saying this.

So, there you have it - more than 2,000 years of evidence. I hope that helps.

I'm not sure that constitutes objective evidence, but ok.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is worrisome that you have no rational basis for right and wrong.

My goal is to maximize human happiness and well being. To me the best way to guarantee that is to maximize personal freedom limited only by limiting one's rights to harm others. In other words "Your right to swing your arms ends at my nose."

Do you see a problem with that concept? Can you think of a better one?

Yes, because it doesn't capture all of the social world in my thinking. It is to simple based on how I think. Further you seem to think that because it is better for you as how you think, it must be better for me, because how you think is correct for us both and how I think is not correct, because you decide that. That is an authoritarian mindset, because you are the authority of us all.
I don't think about better as something I can decide for other humans. I just agree with some about something and disagree with others. That is how it works as fact of the everyday world. That is not nihilism. That is cognitive, moral and cultural relativism.
I do believe in good and bad, but that is how it is to me.

Further there in no objective fact of what harm is. That depends on how you think/feel for you and I might think/feel differently for me. Then what?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And yes, it is demonstrably "wrong" if one has a rational basis for what is right and wrong. My only mistake would have been in assuming that you had one too.

Your turn now, how would you form a basis for right and wrong?

What is rational?