Claims vs. Beliefs

[CG Didymus]

I thought about that passage.

I do consider a wider understanding of that passage. I see those that practice virtue in this world, can do good in this world, but it is contained to this matrix. The purpose of this life is to be born from this matrix, not to be contained within it.

A metephor would be like artificial light. The full light of the sun is required to sustain life and we need to partake of that sun in a balanced healthy way. If we only choose artificial light, our health is compromised and the potential for growth is diminished.

The more attributes we use from the life giving sun, the more life can flourish.

Regards Tony

You know this thread used to be about beliefs are not claims. Do you and ElishaElijah have any problems saying that what you believe about your religious beliefs are claims? It seems that both of you make statements that sure seem to claim that what you believe is the truth. And for those of us that don't believe the claims of your religions would want to ask to you guys questions as to why you believe your religions are true.

Of course, it's going to go round and round and seem to get nowhere, but if your religions are true, I think there should be strong proof and evidence. Without that, any religion can claim whatever it wants and say it is The Truth, and some people will always fall for it. But, especially for the Baha'i Faith, the claim is Jesus, or the Christ, and all the other promised ones, has come in the person of Baha'u'llah. Prophesies are supposed fulfilled. Things promised in the Holy Books about the end times should be happening, yet the world is still a mess.

I think the questions raised by the Atheists are extremely important. Not all things done by religions have been good. Some religions, in some cultures, have been actually very bad and, to me, seem to be merely man-made myths. How can we be sure? Only by asking the tough questions and getting solid answers from the people in the different religions.

There is no question that many people in all religions get something very deep and meaningful out of their beliefs. But the beliefs of all the different religion are all over the place. Just between you and ElishaElijah are incredible differences in beliefs. They both can't be right, yet they both work for each of you. So, again, is it the truth of the religion or that people "believe" it is true that changes them? Which means that any religious belief, right or wrong, true or mythical can work to change people... As long as the people believe in those myths and those stories of Gods and prophets and try to apply, to some degree, the good things from that religion.

You say the "Christ" has already come and we are in the process of building a new world order. ElishaElijah is still waiting for Jesus to return. He takes a very literal interpretation of the Bible. Baha'is take much of it as symbolic. But how much does it matter if neither of you can prove that God is real? Why expect people to blindly following any religion when we know some religions are man-made? How many related threads are we going to go through?

If Christians and Baha'is can't prove God, and then the next step is proving the Bible and NT and in a literal way for Christians, and for Baha'is it would be proving that all the major religions are true and from this same God and that their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, are the latest ones to be sent by this God. If you and ElishaElijah can't agree on who is God, how and why do you expect others to even believe there is a God? Your arguments against each others beliefs negates at least one of ;you and, for me, it kind of negates both of you. Because religions just become unprovable arguments about who is right and who has the real truth. And it sounds like it is neither one of you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You know this thread used to be about beliefs are not claims. Do you and ElishaElijah have any problems saying that what you believe about your religious beliefs are claims? It seems that both of you make statements that sure seem to claim that what you believe is the truth. And for those of us that don't believe the claims of your religions would want to ask to you guys questions as to why you believe your religions are true.

Of course, it's going to go round and round and seem to get nowhere, but if your religions are true, I think there should be strong proof and evidence. Without that, any religion can claim whatever it wants and say it is The Truth, and some people will always fall for it. But, especially for the Baha'i Faith, the claim is Jesus, or the Christ, and all the other promised ones, has come in the person of Baha'u'llah. Prophesies are supposed fulfilled. Things promised in the Holy Books about the end times should be happening, yet the world is still a mess.

I think the questions raised by the Atheists are extremely important. Not all things done by religions have been good. Some religions, in some cultures, have been actually very bad and, to me, seem to be merely man-made myths. How can we be sure? Only by asking the tough questions and getting solid answers from the people in the different religions.

There is no question that many people in all religions get something very deep and meaningful out of their beliefs. But the beliefs of all the different religion are all over the place. Just between you and ElishaElijah are incredible differences in beliefs. They both can't be right, yet they both work for each of you. So, again, is it the truth of the religion or that people "believe" it is true that changes them? Which means that any religious belief, right or wrong, true or mythical can work to change people... As long as the people believe in those myths and those stories of Gods and prophets and try to apply, to some degree, the good things from that religion.

You say the "Christ" has already come and we are in the process of building a new world order. ElishaElijah is still waiting for Jesus to return. He takes a very literal interpretation of the Bible. Baha'is take much of it as symbolic. But how much does it matter if neither of you can prove that God is real? Why expect people to blindly following any religion when we know some religions are man-made? How many related threads are we going to go through?

If Christians and Baha'is can't prove God, and then the next step is proving the Bible and NT and in a literal way for Christians, and for Baha'is it would be proving that all the major religions are true and from this same God and that their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, are the latest ones to be sent by this God. If you and ElishaElijah can't agree on who is God, how and why do you expect others to even believe there is a God? Your arguments against each others beliefs negates at least one of ;you and, for me, it kind of negates both of you. Because religions just become unprovable arguments about who is right and who has the real truth. And it sounds like it is neither one of you.

That is the quandary of Faith CG. We do not possess absolute truth. Only the Messengers do, they are the claim to that truth.

I share what is relevant to me, if it helps any other person, than that is a result of the absolute truth, it is not a result of me sharing it.

The sun shines on us all, we all get to partake of it as we so choose.

The Truth comes to us from God via a Messenger, who is trusted to give mankind a Message.

They alone are given the task to proclaim this Message to humanity how they choose to. Thus that Messaage becomes the proof of the claim that all have the choice to investigate. It is not the responsibility of someone who has accepted that claim to prove it to any other person, in fact rule 8 here disallows that as a motive.

So to me that is logical, it is a claim that we must investigate for our own selves, to determine if it is truth and what is not, in fact the Bible tells us it is our own duty to do so?

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

It even offers what we are searching for, the Spirit, not the flesh.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

All this shows is common design,

No it doesn't, you are using an argument from assertion fallacy.

what you fail to acknowledge is that these organs cannot function on their own

BS, I said the exact opposite?

Not now no, no one has remotely suggested they can,

Why would you make up such a an obvious lie?

like a slow evolutionary process of natural selection is hypothesized.

Evolution does not hypothesise any such thing, again your dishonesty is not going to fool anyone here.

They would’ve had to exist together and at the same time to function at all and survive.

No they wouldn't, and I just showed why, and you simply ignored it and repeated your BS creationist propaganda. Here it is again then:

Using the placenta to understand how complex organs evolve

 

[Sheldon]

The Truth comes to us from God via a Messenger,

No it doesn't, the best way to ascertain if something is true is objective evidence, the more we have for a claim assertion idea or belief, the more likely it is to be true. There is none for any deity.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That reminds me of this,

Proverbs 1:1-33......."1_7 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, ...22“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?
How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
and fools hate knowledge?....."

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 1 - English Standard Version

Regards Tony

And why is that? Are you claiming that the person I am debating is a fool? I have not gone that far even though he does hate knowledge.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And reminds me of this:
:
“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Besides being a worthless defensive verse, that is evidence that the Bible is not the word of God, none of the atheists here make that mistake. Most of us do not even say "there is no God" we merely lack a belief in that which has no reliable evidence for it at all. And even those that believe that there is no God do not do so "in their heart".

That verse at best for you says that a person that denies God for emotional (in their heart) reasons is a fool. It does not say that atheists are a fool. To get to some really big lies about atheist that refute the Bible I think that you need to go to the New Testament.

By the way, it looked to me as if he was calling you a fool since you have been the one running away when it comes to knowledge. How did you twist that around in such a fashion?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is the quandary of Faith CG. We do not possess absolute truth. Only the Messengers do, they are the claim to that truth.

I share what is relevant to me, if it helps any other person, than that is a result of the absolute truth, it is not a result of me sharing it.

The sun shines on us all, we all get to partake of it as we so choose.

The Truth comes to us from God via a Messenger, who is trusted to give mankind a Message.

They alone are given the task to proclaim this Message to humanity how they choose to. Thus that Messaage becomes the proof of the claim that all have the choice to investigate. It is not the responsibility of someone who has accepted that claim to prove it to any other person, in fact rule 8 here disallows that as a motive.

So to me that is logical, it is a claim that we must investigate for our own selves, to determine if it is truth and what is not, in fact the Bible tells us it is our own duty to do so?

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

It even offers what we are searching for, the Spirit, not the flesh.

Regards Tony

Okay. What evidence do you have that a "Messenger" has absolute truthTM?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe this thread has gone on for so long because of misunderstandings?

It seems quite simple when we read the definitions, maybe we need to see it in another light, that of a proclamation.

A Messenger of God PROCLAIMS a Message from God and as such, the Messenger is not the owner of what is offered, they offer, "...This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven.."

A proclamation is a statement which is proclaimed, which is given by God for the Messenger to offer as a formal public announcement. It never comes to the point where it is a claim, as a claim is a demand of ownership made for something, and a Messenger does not claim or demand ownership.

Likewise a beleiver in turn further proclaims that Message to others, but also do not claim or demand ownership of what is of God.

I will not argue that, it was just good for me to realise that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay. What evidence do you have that a "Messenger" has absolute truthTM?

Their Message, as what they have proclaimed from God becomes the apex of Truth. It is the required standard of Virtue, Morality and Justice, suited to the Age.

They are the fist to claim the power of that Message by living that Message. But it is not a claim in its true sense, as they do not demand anybody embrace what is offered form God. So they proclaim that world by their lives as well.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No it doesn't, the best way to ascertain if something is true is objective evidence, the more we have for a claim assertion idea or belief, the more likely it is to be true. There is none for any deity.

Great. Then you have your way, I have no claim to offer, and I never have.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And why is that? Are you claiming that the person I am debating is a fool? I have not gone that far even though he does hate knowledge.

What that was, is a Passage from the Old Testament, that was proclaimed in the past by what is known as a Prophet. It was God offering what is true wisdom and knowledge in the form of a proverb.

I guess we can read that proclamation and take it how we so choose.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Their Message, as what they have proclaimed from God becomes the apex of Truth. It is the required standard of Virtue, Morality and Justice, suited to the Age.

They are the fist to claim the power of that Message by living that Message. But it is not a claim in its true sense, as they do not demand anybody embrace what is offered form God. So they proclaim that world by their lives as well.

Regards Tony

Sorry, not good enough. You have to be specific. From what I have seen when specific claims are tested they always fail. But who knows? You might have some that pass so I will not say without seeing your evidence that it fails. I will only state that it does not look good.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What that was, is a Passage from the Old Testament, that was proclaimed in the past by what is known as a Prophet. It was God offering what is true wisdom and knowledge in the form of a proverb.

I guess we can read that proclamation and take it how we so choose.

Regards Tony

Oh my! You failed so early. That is not what it was. It might have been a passage by someone claiming to be a prophet, but Old Testament prophets fail rather poorly when tested.

And you still have not explained your attack on @ElishaElijah who continually runs away from acquiring knowledge. Perhaps you do not even know what knowledge is. Knowledge does not consist of believing myths in "holy" books. It consists of being able to support what one claims to know. Please note that I do not claim to know that God does not exist. I cannot properly support that claim so I will not make it. But I do know that man is the product of evolution and can and will support that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No it doesn't, the best way to ascertain if something is true is objective evidence, the more we have for a claim assertion idea or belief, the more likely it is to be true. There is none for any deity.

Heck, why not give him a chance to prove that claim? Surely he must have convincing evidence

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, not good enough. You have to be specific. From what I have seen when specific claims are tested they always fail. But who knows? You might have some that pass so I will not say without seeing your evidence that it fails. I will only state that it does not look good.

I am not asking you to look, I have shared a Proclamation that gave me all the proof I need.

I do not know what you would need as proof from that Message. You would have to consider it for your own self.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you still have not explained your attack on @ElishaElijah who continually runs away from acquiring knowledge. Perhaps you do not even know what knowledge is.

I was supporting ElishaElijah with that passage.

That is why I offered you can get from it as you choose.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

The fool says in his head, there is a god.

See, vapid unevidenced platitudes are not hard to create.

 

[Sheldon]

The purpose of this life is to be born from this matrix, not to be contained within it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not asking you to look, I have shared a Proclamation that gave me all the proof I need.

I do not know what you would need as proof from that Message. You would have to consider it for your own self.

Regards Tony

Tony! The title of this thread is claims and beliefs. You only gave us the weakest of claims. When you do that you should not be surprised when others can see that you have nothing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The fool says in his head, there is a god.

See, vapid unevidenced platitudes are not hard to create.

Winner times two. It is the corollary of that verse.