Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine

[sojourner]

OK, I write this again for reference. The text in Greek there uses the word arsenokoitai. What do you think that means? Also, immorality is mentioned, and not to go into detail with you, but what do you think immorality means? Maybe you think that is not mentioned also in the Bible?

See above.

 

[YoursTrue]

It literally translates to “male-“bed.” It patently does not mean “homosexual.” It says nothing about an orientation. It only refers to an act, which may or may not have anything to do with same-sex orientation. Other uses in ancient literature of the term usually refer to prostitution. One need not be homosexual in order to have sex with other men. The term more likely refers to male prostitution, and not to one’s orientation. You’re making an assumption not supported by the facts.

OK, if that's how you think what it means. I've met a person that considers herself a kleptomaniac. Wherever she went, she had to take something home that didn't belong to her. She was seeing a psychiatrist for this disorder. You think maybe she could change if she tried? Alcoholism is a serious problem, too. So? Overweight people have a hard time staying away from foods they know are not good for them. So?

 

[YoursTrue]

See above.

Poor Mrs. Grundy, if that's your attitude towards freedom. Those considering themselves free may not be free at all. And that's all.

 

[YoursTrue]

It literally translates to “male-“bed.” It patently does not mean “homosexual.” It says nothing about an orientation. It only refers to an act, which may or may not have anything to do with same-sex orientation. Other uses in ancient literature of the term usually refer to prostitution. One need not be homosexual in order to have sex with other men. The term more likely refers to male prostitution, and not to one’s orientation. You’re making an assumption not supported by the facts.

The Jews interpreted what Jesus said as if he meant somethings literally. They were wrong. Male-bed as you say it means literally and then say it doesn't MEAN HOMOSEXUALITY is not a real common expression in English. Unless of course you're Mrs. Grundy.

 

[YoursTrue]

See above.

Oh, by the way, the teller-offer of Mrs. Grundy, what do you think immorality means? Anything you decide it means?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I believe the difference is that Star Wars and Star Trek are fictional. The Bible is not fiction; It is the word of God.

The scientific and historical errors are so rife within the Bible, I find it difficult to wrap my head around how anyone can consider it anything except fiction.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Muslims and Jews are supposed to believe that humans are created just to worship their Creator (Allah or Moses' God); as Pagans do. Their only differences are about how worshiping should be done (by obeying certain rules and observing certain rituals).
Jesus message focus on Love, not Worship. This is why Jesus says:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine". and
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
He refers to those who will be able to perceive the huge difference between Love and Worship, and how Loving God (Trusting fully the God's One Will of Love) is much harder (even impossible to many) than worshiping, praising and obeying an Imaginary/Supernatural One-Being Selfish Powerful King/Judge (as Allah... etc).
My point is that you can be sure that the great majority in the world, theists and atheists, agrees with you that God has to be just One-Being and has to play the Supreme Judge on his creatures. And, now you know why such an image of 'God has to be rejected by (be non-existent to) a good wise atheist.

Thank you for your reply. I don't see the connection between worship as the Pagans (non-Christians) do.
Ephesians 1:12-14 is fulfilled through God's spirit to be for the praise of His glory who hoped in Christ.
Christ gave No non-Christians worship ideas, but Jesus instructed at John 4:23-24.
I find in those verses the emphasis is on worship and also at James 1:27 about the form of worship from God's view.
This to me ties in with Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35.
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor MORE than self , more than the Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18 B.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......... God is not three persons; He is in three persons.

I'm counting more than three persons at John 17:11 B ; John 17:20-22

 

[sojourner]

OK, if that's how you think what it means. I've met a person that considers herself a kleptomaniac. Wherever she went, she had to take something home that didn't belong to her. She was seeing a psychiatrist for this disorder. You think maybe she could change if she tried? Alcoholism is a serious problem, too. So? Overweight people have a hard time staying away from foods they know are not good for them. So?

Since kleptomania and alcoholism and obesity are all medical disorders, and homosexuality is not, your post is not germane to the topic.

 

[sojourner]

Poor Mrs. Grundy, if that's your attitude towards freedom. Those considering themselves free may not be free at all. And that's all.

In this scenario, the position you’ve taken is Mrs. Grundy. You don’t get to judge anyone based on your inadequate reading of the text.

 

[sojourner]

The Jews interpreted what Jesus said as if he meant somethings literally

So? And? This statement isn’t cogent to the topic we’re discussing.

Male-bed as you say it means literally and then say it doesn't MEAN HOMOSEXUALITY is not a real common expression in English

That’s why translation’s problematic. Suffice to say that the act =/= the orientation.

 

[sojourner]

Oh, by the way, the teller-offer of Mrs. Grundy, what do you think immorality means? Anything you decide it means?

Immorality means anything counter to love. Condemnation based on a misreading is not love.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, although you are a nice intelligent person, it doesn't imply that you perceive life as I do.
Let us review what we, you and I, keep repeating.

I think you would be surprised how much of what you believe I also believe. See below.

To you, God has to be a One-Being.
To me, God is the One Will of Two Independent Beings joined by Love (spiritual).

Yes, that is what I believe, that God is One and Jesus is a separate Being, but I also believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and as such the Will of Jesus was “identical” to the Will of God, as the following passage says.

“He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

Jesus and God do not represent two separate Wills, but one Will, the same Will.

To you, Son of God means that the non-incarnated Being whom Jesus refers to as the/his/our/my Father in Heaven has to be God.
To me, Son of God means that Jesus came directly from God's Realm of Love (Heaven) as 'son of desert' means he came from desert in which he used living. Jesus came to give His spiritual creatures all what they need to know about their own existence and the material world in which their given living flesh will exist temporarily. By this crucial knowledge, it becomes possible for some humans to let their fresh spiritual nature to survive in God's Realm of Love on earth and in Heaven later.

I do not believe that Jesus became God in the flesh but rather Jesus manifested God in the flesh. The Essence of God cannot ever become a man but rather the Attributes of God and the Will of God were perfectly in Jesus. That is why the Bible says that the Father is in the Son and why Jesus said “I and my Father are One.”

I believe that the soul of Jesus was preexistent in the spiritual world and but was sent from the heaven of the Will of God to unite with His physical body on earth.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

So I agree that Jesus came directly from God's Realm (Heaven).

I am afraid you believe that you have a spiritual nature just because you read it on certain books, said holy.

There really is no other way to know about spiritual reality except from scriptures because I am not going to just make stuff up so it will fit with what I might “want to believe.” In one way or another all scriptures say that humans have a spiritual nature, and anyone can see that humans also have a physical nature because that is clearly apparent.

Actually, you perceive and analyze all things in your life thru a material nature only, like seeing the suffering of fleshes (of humans or else) as wrong or bad. It seems you didn't notice yet that if our body is not designed to feel various sorts of pain anytime something wrong happens to it, a human born baby won’t have the chance to stay alive and be an adult.

I analyze all things in my life through a material nature and a spiritual nature. You have a need to believe that God is loving, so go ahead and try to defend your loving God who created a world where people and animals will suffer through no fault of their own. Any rational person can see that something is bad at black rock. I cannot say I know what that something is.

Even in the material world it is not odd.
Let us suppose you are a powerful king (a great Caesar) and you are sure that someone has full trust in whatever you did and do, do you ask him to also worship and praise you as your followers and slaves should do?

It does not matter if it makes sense to you. The problem you are faced with is that this is exactly what God has asked us to do in the scriptures of all the Abrahamic religions.

We are not slaves if God, we are Servants of God and as such we do what God has asked us to do. God does not need worship or praise for Himself because God has no needs. God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Sorry but I didn’t know that Galileo was very arrogant for believing he knew more/better than all teachings, religious and scientific, at his time. In other words, one’s knowledge, based on one’s observations and logical reasoning, has nothing to do with arrogance but self-trust. But, you are right too. In any formal ruling system (religious or political) an ordinary person is not supposed to have self-trust but to believe whoever run his system may say and approve as being real and/or true.
Therefore, it is not wrong or bad, at all, if one feels a real need to be guided by some others.

Believing “I know more/better than all teachings, religious and scientific” is the epitome of arrogance.
Putting Self trust over Trust in revealed scriptures is also arrogance.

We like it or not, nothing can change reality. For example, although all people were born as human babies, they are not created to be alike while each of them is very important to life in some respects.

I believe that you are right about that. We were not all created to be alike. We each have different capacities. A fellow Baha’i explained that to me just last night and here is that part of his post:

And in this Tablet, Baha'u'llah says, everything has a fixed measure which is already prescribed by God:

"Blessed is He Who, in a well-guarded Tablet, hath prescribed a fixed measure unto all things."

It means, for example, how wealthy or poor each person would be, is predestined according to fixed measure.
If you have an apple tree in your backyard. How many apples will it have this year? This is a prescribed measure. It is part of fate and destiny.
How many children we would have? It is fate.

And again:

"Glorified is He Who causeth whomsoever He willeth to ascend unto the heaven of grace, and sendeth down therefrom whatsoever He desireth according to a prescribed measure"

This means, spiritual station of each person is already prescribed according to a measure, which determines the level of spiritually of each person.

#185 InvestigateTruth

 

[YoursTrue]

The scientific and historical errors are so rife within the Bible, I find it difficult to wrap my head around how anyone can consider it anything except fiction.

I like to reason on matters as much as possible. One of the points I like to think about and reason on is when did humans begin to write. Any idea?

 

[YoursTrue]

Since kleptomania and alcoholism and obesity are all medical disorders, and homosexuality is not, your post is not germane to the topic.

People can recover from drinking without restraint. Takes time and conscientious attention but it can be done. Same with drugs. If a person doesn't want to do certain things, regardless of propensity, he can avoid them. I didn't read all the posts, but did you say if you believe morality or sin is specifically spoken of in the Bible? What about let's say, adultery? How do you feel about that? Maybe you think serial killers are excused because they're sick in the head?

 

[YoursTrue]

Immorality means anything counter to love. Condemnation based on a misreading is not love.

You say it's a misreading. Is there any translation that says manbed is the correct way to translate it? Is a bed a man, you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

Immorality means anything counter to love. Condemnation based on a misreading is not love.

So what if anything do you believe in the Bible? It says God is love. What about the following, how do you see it?
Jesus said, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." (Matthew 24.)

 

[KerimF]

Thank you for your reply. I don't see the connection between worship as the Pagans (non-Christians) do.
Ephesians 1:12-14 is fulfilled through God's spirit to be for the praise of His glory who hoped in Christ.
Christ gave No non-Christians worship ideas, but Jesus instructed at John 4:23-24.
I find in those verses the emphasis is on worship and also at James 1:27 about the form of worship from God's view.

Thank you for pointing out the word worshipers in the following Jesus' saying:

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

I know, to a good extent, how good faithful Pagans, Jews, Muslims and formal Christians are supposed to worship 'their' God. And the common point in their various rituals of worshiping (observed privately or in public) is to express, in certain ways, their total submission to 'their' God. I even know for sure that they all feel, during their worship, the same extra joy no matter what the image/name of God, they worship, is. This natural extra joy that each believer got in himself as a result of being submitted freely and fully to another will, lets him believe that his God has to be true and real. In other words, the conventional acts of worshiping let all believers be happy with their God; each with his God (since there are many images of God that are offered on the world's table).
A side note: This extra joy of submission (if accepted freely) could be also felt during a sexual adventure even before the dominant side does any serious act

Now, let us examine the above Jesus' saying:

"the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth".

First, Jesus means by the 'Father' 'The Father and me (Jesus)'; unless Jesus was kidding when He says: "I and my Father are one".

But whoever believes in (perceives) the existence of the Divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit, which has the power to join the Wills of two independent beings and let them have just One Will (as if they were One Entity, not two), knows that referring to 'The Father' is exactly as referring to 'Jesus' and vice versa.

Second, what could 'worshiping in spirit and in truth' mean, speaking practically?

Jesus didn't need adding 'in spirit and in truth' if he means the conventional worship by submission while praising. Jesus is actually referring to His greatest advice (known in English as the 1st commandment) about trusting fully God's Will; in whatever could be seen in life (True Love is synonymy of having trust to no limit). Therefore, as Jesus mentioned already, a few humans only are able to worship God (the One Will of the Father and Jesus, unified by the Holy Spirit) in spirit and in truth. Are you able to?

Sorry, the image of a one-being God (James 1:27) doesn't suit the nature of which I am created. To me in the least, 'True Love' cannot exist in a 'one of his kind' being (God or else).

This to me ties in with Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35.
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor MORE than self , more than the Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18 B.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye
also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

First, this advice is addressed to the Apostles and First Disciples who were together not as a formal group (like any today's formal Christian Church/Denomination is) but as real free independent individuals. In fact, 'True Love' is strictly based on a personal free-will decision towards others.

Second, Jesus' 2nd advice is addressed to any spiritual person (not necessarily a disciple of Jesus) because one's neighbor could be an enemy And no one can deny that not resisting enemies, if not refusing to destroy them, is a serious crime of treason if someone belongs, by his own will, to any well-known formal group (civil, religious or political).
By the way, the words 'your neighbor' are in Arabic something like 'whoever by you'; as in the parable of {Luke 10:30}.

 

[KerimF]

I think you would be surprised how much of what you believe I also believe. See below.

Yes, that is what I believe, that God is One and Jesus is a separate Being, but I also believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and as such the Will of Jesus was “identical” to the Will of God, as the following passage says.

“He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

Jesus and God do not represent two separate Wills, but one Will, the same Will.

I do not believe that Jesus became God in the flesh but rather Jesus manifested God in the flesh. The Essence of God cannot ever become a man but rather the Attributes of God and the Will of God were perfectly in Jesus. That is why the Bible says that the Father is in the Son and why Jesus said “I and my Father are One.”

I believe that the soul of Jesus was preexistent in the spiritual world and but was sent from the heaven of the Will of God to unite with His physical body on earth.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

So I agree that Jesus came directly from God's Realm (Heaven).

There really is no other way to know about spiritual reality except from scriptures because I am not going to just make stuff up so it will fit with what I might “want to believe.” In one way or another all scriptures say that humans have a spiritual nature, and anyone can see that humans also have a physical nature because that is clearly apparent.

I analyze all things in my life through a material nature and a spiritual nature. You have a need to believe that God is loving, so go ahead and try to defend your loving God who created a world where people and animals will suffer through no fault of their own. Any rational person can see that something is bad at black rock. I cannot say I know what that something is.

It does not matter if it makes sense to you. The problem you are faced with is that this is exactly what God has asked us to do in the scriptures of all the Abrahamic religions.

We are not slaves if God, we are Servants of God and as such we do what God has asked us to do. God does not need worship or praise for Himself because God has no needs. God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Believing “I know more/better than all teachings, religious and scientific” is the epitome of arrogance.
Putting Self trust over Trust in revealed scriptures is also arrogance.

I believe that you are right about that. We were not all created to be alike. We each have different capacities. A fellow Baha’i explained that to me just last night and here is that part of his post:

And in this Tablet, Baha'u'llah says, everything has a fixed measure which is already prescribed by God:

"Blessed is He Who, in a well-guarded Tablet, hath prescribed a fixed measure unto all things."

It means, for example, how wealthy or poor each person would be, is predestined according to fixed measure.
If you have an apple tree in your backyard. How many apples will it have this year? This is a prescribed measure. It is part of fate and destiny.
How many children we would have? It is fate.

And again:

"Glorified is He Who causeth whomsoever He willeth to ascend unto the heaven of grace, and sendeth down therefrom whatsoever He desireth according to a prescribed measure"

This means, spiritual station of each person is already prescribed according to a measure, which determines the level of spiritually of each person.

#185 InvestigateTruth

In a few words, you are very sure that your Creator needs servants while I am also very sure that the end purpose for which I am created is not to serve my Creator, period

Please note that I, unlike you (and billions of humans), can't imagine, even if I want to, that my Creator could be like a needy king looking for servants

 

[sojourner]

People can recover from drinking without restraint

Drinking isn’t sexuality. Sexuality is a big part of one’s identity and psychological makeup/personality. People don’t need to “recover” from who they are.

Same with drugs

See above. Self-medication is a recognized, medical disorder. Human sexuality is not.

If a person doesn't want to do certain things, regardless of propensity, he can avoid them

Why would one avoid one’s sexuality? That, in itself, would constitute unhealthy behavior.

I didn't read all the posts, but did you say if you believe morality or sin is specifically spoken of in the Bible

It’s rather immaterial to this topic, but yes. It is.

Maybe you think serial killers are excused because they're sick in the head?

Our own laws allow for that. It’s called “innocent by reason of insanity.” I believe God is far more forbearing than our laws.

You say it's a misreading. Is there any translation that says manbed is the correct way to translate it?

That’s not a translation. It’s a transliteration. That’s what those words literally mean in Koine Greek.

Is a bed a man, you think?

That’s not how Koine Greek works.

So what if anything do you believe in the Bible? It says God is love.

It doesn’t matter what I believe. It only matters what the Bible actually says.

Jesus said, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

It has eschatological overtones. It’s part of what’s known as the “fifth discourse,” and bookends the first discourse, which is the sermon on the mount. Bathos these point toward the third discourse, which gives us the central theme of Matthew’s Gospel: the parable of the sheep and goats, wheat and weeds. But none of this — absolutely none of this — is germane to the issue of homosexuality, which Jesus mentions not one single time in any Gospel.

You’re just throwing stuff up against the wall to see what sticks; none of it sticks.