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Climate change as a tool of tyranny

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, I mean this:

A famous tree in the Maldives shows no evidence of having been swept away by rising sea levels, as would be predicted by the global warming swindlers. A group of Australian global-warming advocates came along and pulled the tree down, destroying the evidence that their “theory” was false.

Apparently your website is getting blocked by my antivirus program. Shows how reputable it is I guess.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, I mean this:

A famous tree in the Maldives shows no evidence of having been swept away by rising sea levels, as would be predicted by the global warming swindlers. A group of Australian global-warming advocates came along and pulled the tree down, destroying the evidence that their “theory” was false.

Have you looked into the dates of when different amounts of sea level rise are supposed to happen? One thing that I did not like about Al Gore is that in making the problem of AGW known he over stated when events would happen. Those events are happening, but not on the schedule that Gore said that they would. But for the last twenty years, and probably more, climate scientists have been very accurate in their predictions and that should worry science deniers.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Apparently your website is getting blocked by my antivirus program. Shows how reputable it is I guess.
I've added the PDF as an attachment.

Yes. And sea levels were 20-30 m above today's levels and forests grew in Greenland. 30% of land today was under the ocean.
OK, but I don't see anything that supports the original claim that lives are at risk because of climate change.
 

Attachments

  • NilsAxelMornerinterview.pdf
    995.4 KB · Views: 68

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Bollocks.

At the time, atmospheric CO2 concentration was at a whopping 3000 to 9000 ppm!


Ebionite, please explain what you are talking about. When were CO2 levels ever above even 500 ppm? Pre-industrial CO2 levels were around 280 ppm. They are now well over 400. As my link explained, we know that the rise in CO2 levels is from the burning of fossils fuels, i.e. anthropogenic.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ebionite, please explain what you are talking about. When were CO2 levels ever above even 500 ppm? Pre-industrial CO2 levels were around 280 ppm. They are now well over 400. As my link explained, we know that the rise in CO2 levels is from the burning of fossils fuels, i.e. anthropogenic.
In the Earths past it has been higher. Sometimes much higher, and that was a good thing. For example during most of the Precambrian it was much much higher than it is now. But the Sun was also much dimmer. The Faint Young Sun Paradox is an interesting problem. Largely solved but there are still questions. But there could have been upwards of 1,000 times today's concentrations.


If you go over the last 500 million years the amount has varied to several times the current amount. And there were sometimes major extinctions associated with this. An even bigger event than the asteroid strike that killed the dinosaurs was the change in CO2 levels that caused the "Great Dying" at the end of the Permian.


The most likely cause were the flood basalts on the Siberian Steppes. And along with the basalt came our old friend CO2. We do not want to repeat that.

But one thing to remember is that as the Sun ages it is very slowly getting hotter. For man's time on Earth it can be treated as being a constant value, but if one goes back in time one finds higher and higher CO2 levels. That is probably because the young Earth was hotter and more volcanic.. Overall it has worked pretty good with some extremely ugly extinction events here and there. Now less COI2 is enough to warm the Earth than was needed 400 million years ago.

But for man's time on Earth the CO2 levels are the highest that they have ever been and that is why we should be paying attention to.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I've added the PDF as an attachment.


OK, but I don't see anything that supports the original claim that lives are at risk because of climate change.
You do not believe that a 20m rise in sea level and inundation of 25% of current land area will kill people? Such changes will simply destroy civilizations.

I will check the pdf later. Can't download now.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What amazes me is that the consequences of AGW is extremely serious and will be so catastrophic to most all nations that a breaking point is inevitable. I would think that even those who deny AGW they would apply a pascal's wager approach, and think that just in case it is real that they should support reduction of greenhouse gases. No humility whatsoever. It's as if deniers are acting through spite, not genuine doubts.
My solution was to stop debating climate change and let us debate solutions. I am being proactive. The political Left wants to kill fossil fuel even before there are full logistics for alternatives; electric, in place. That may work in terms of CO2 but it will cause hardship since it is causing inflation and leaves too many people hanging in limbo.

My solution was to make up up the needed CO2 reduction by taming the Continent of Fire; Africa. If we invested in Africa to decrease the trillions of ton of CO2 due to forest fire each year, we can get the same result while not having to tamper with the world's current energy paradigm. This would buy time, to advance the logistics for alternate and greener energy. This solution goes to the same place, but it is less destructive and destabilizing.


What is interesting is since Africa has so much natural fire, more of the world's oxygen is consumed there, seasonally. The oxygen is replenished, globally by plants, but there should be an oxygen gradient over Africa that has some global climate impact. The oxygen from other places around the world will need to fill in the deficit though the concentration gradient. Does it drag air with it or tunnel through the air? The high level of CO2 in African fires will do the same, but in the opposite directions. The nitrogen is not impacted by any gradient. Water is the wild card.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My solution was to stop debating climate change and let us debate solutions. I am being proactive. The political Left wants to kill fossil fuel ever before there are logistics for alternatives in place. That may work in terms of CO2 but it will cause hardship since it leaves too many people hanging in limbo.

My solution was to make up up the needed CO2 reduction by taming the Continent of Fire; Africa. If we invested in Africa to decrease the trillions of ton of CO2 due to forest fire each year, we can get the same result while not having to tamper with the world's current energy paradigm. This would buy time, to advance the logistics for alternate and greener energy. This solution goes to the same place, but it is less destructive and destabilizing.

Forest fires in Africa are mainly in grasslands and do not contribute much to net CO2 at all. Grasses are perennial plants and burning of grass simply releases CO2 that were collected a year ago from the atmosphere. If the grasses did not burn and instead were either eaten by grazers or decomposed, that would also release the CO2.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
My solution was to stop debating climate change and let us debate solutions. I am being proactive. The political Left wants to kill fossil fuel even before there are full logistics for alternatives; electric, in place. That may work in terms of CO2 but it will cause hardship since it is causing inflation and leaves too many people hanging in limbo.
I'm not going to ask you why you think the left is killing fossil fuel. They aren't doing any such thing. Democrats have been strong dvocates of alternative energy while the republicans have been "drill, baby, drill". There's no doubt that republicans have slowed the progress of alternative energy generation over the decades, so we have to catch up. Unfortunately it looks like we have ignored the warning of cliamte change too long and effects are already hitting the world hard. How much will it cost us?
My solution was to make up up the needed CO2 reduction by taming the Continent of Fire; Africa. If we invested in Africa to decrease the trillions of ton of CO2 due to forest fire each year, we can get the same result while not having to tamper with the world's current energy paradigm. This would buy time, to advance the logistics for alternate and greener energy. This solution goes to the same place, but it is less destructive and destabilizing.
Invest how? Who will pay, and where will the money come from?
What is interesting is since Africa has so much natural fire, more of the world's oxygen is consumed there, seasonally. The oxygen is replenished, globally by plants, but there should be an oxygen gradient over Africa that has some global climate impact. The oxygen from other places around the world will need to fill in the deficit though the concentration gradient. Does it drag air with it or tunnel through the air? The high level of CO2 in African fires will do the same, but in the opposite directions. The nitrogen is not impacted by any gradient. Water is the wild card.
I don't see any actual solution here. Is there a problem with reducing burning fossil fuels?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Quite right. It was only the other day I saw sea level rise strike down an innocent group of sunbathers.
Sarcasm. Are you using this because you need to offset the guilt you feel because of the harm your ideological beliefs cause other people?

So you are disingenuous about your concern for what happens to humans. You won't even consider that your denial could be a mistake, and that by ignoring the experts many millions of people will be harmed by the effects of more severe weather? This will harm the poor the most because they are less likely to afford to heat and cool living spaces. Communities have been creating cooling centers for these people to come and get relief. That costs taxpayers. More severe storms are damaging more homes and building and insurance companies pay out, and then raise rates on us to cover the losses.
It comes down to truth, something that the state doesn't have a good relationship with because of the institutional bias against recognition of the intangibles of the natural world.
As if right wing disinformation does. This statement of your is an excuse to believe what you want to believe for a political reason. This is what the world faces these days, the prevalence of disinformation that appeals to those of a political angle, and cotizens like yourself are wager to go along with the fraud. Fortunately more conservatives are beginning to acknowledge facts and listen to experts, not right wing disinformation. We watch to see how long you hold out and feed on disinformation to get a political fix.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are trying to keep framing the discussion with the foundation premise that the observed climate change can be explained exclusively as man made.
That is not the claim of the scientific community.
This is a Lefty trick
Lefty trick? To understand and be concerned by the science makes one a "Lefty."

Since it's how you conceive of reality, isn't your comment above a Righty trick? It's a straw man argument. You frame it such that if we find any other cause of CO2 levels rising being responsible for even a percent or two of the total increase, that you have rebutted the climate scientists, but you haven't. You've just evaded their actual claim with your Righty trick.
The Russian Collusion was also a done deal.
We know there was Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. Well, I do. Righties listen to conservative indoctrination media.

How do I know that Putin assisted the Trump campaign? The dog test gives us the answer: You defrosted a steak on a plate which you put on the table, but forgot to put it back into the refrigerator before you left for work. Your dog is home alone, loves steak, has never been trained, and can get to the steak. Question: did the dog eat the steak? Of course it did. If it had the will and the means to get to it, there is no other possible outcome unless the dog dies of a heart attack trying to get to the steak.

Just ask yourself, would Putin help the Trump campaign if he thought he could? That's a no-brainer. Would Trump and his consiglieres accept that help were it offered? Still no brain required. We know what happened even before looking at the evidence for that collusion:
The political Left wants to kill fossil fuel even before there are full logistics for alternatives; electric, in place.
I do. I'd love to see a fossil fuel digesting microbe evolve and consume every bit of petroleum, coal, natural gas, etc.. today and leave the world to start over tomorrow. I assure you that the hardship caused would pale in comparison to what's actually coming instead.

Get your solar panels and storage batteries now if you don't already have them and continue enjoying your air-conditioned home and electric appliances, your TV and lighting at night, your electric car and garage door opener, and your computer in case some "Lefty" environmentalist figures out how to do that.

Or do it just to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem, and save a ton of money in the process. Win-win! We have had the solar collection devices (panels, water heater) for eleven years now, but not the batteries yet. The hardware paid for itself in seven years (prices have come down, so less for those just getting started) and we have been enjoying free power for four years now, which has saved us over $25,000 to date compared to an $8000 outlay up front.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is not the claim of the scientific community.

Lefty trick? To understand and be concerned by the science makes one a "Lefty."

Since it's how you conceive of reality, isn't your comment above a Righty trick? It's a straw man argument. You frame it such that if we find any other cause of CO2 levels rising being responsible for even a percent or two of the total increase, that you have rebutted the climate scientists, but you haven't. You've just evaded their actual claim with your Righty trick.

We know there was Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. Well, I do. Righties listen to conservative indoctrination media.

How do I know that Putin assisted the Trump campaign? The dog test gives us the answer: You defrosted a steak on a plate which you put on the table, but forgot to put it back into the refrigerator before you left for work. Your dog is home alone, loves steak, has never been trained, and can get to the steak. Question: did the dog eat the steak? Of course it did. If it had the will and the means to get to it, there is no other possible outcome unless the dog dies of a heart attack trying to get to the steak.

Just ask yourself, would Putin help the Trump campaign if he thought he could? That's a no-brainer. Would Trump and his consiglieres accept that help were it offered? Still no brain required. We know what happened even before looking at the evidence for that collusion:
I keep hearing republicans accuse the Obama era FBI of "spying" on Trump and the Trump campaign during the 2015-16 campaign. They never acknowledge that the FBI was watching Russians who were meeting Trymp and his campaign officials. There were 112 documented meetings with Russians at a time the FBI knew Russia was working to interfere with our election. Trump also denied having business interests in Russia, so why the meetings? Trump is free to meet with whomever he wants, but if he is running for a public office, and he is meeting with people from a nation that is a serious adversary, it is suspicious. It is the FBI's duty to observe and examine threats domestically.
I do. I'd love to see a fossil fuel digesting microbe evolve and consume every bit of petroleum, coal, natural gas, etc.. today and leave the world to start over tomorrow. I assure you that the hardship caused would pale in comparison to what's actually coming instead.

Get your solar panels and storage batteries now if you don't already have them and continue enjoying your air-conditioned home and electric appliances, your TV and lighting at night, your electric car and garage door opener, and your computer in case some "Lefty" environmentalist figures out how to do that.

Or do it just to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem, and save a ton of money in the process. Win-win! We have had the solar collection devices (panels, water heater) for eleven years now, but not the batteries yet. The hardware paid for itself in seven years (prices have come down, so less for those just getting started) and we have been enjoying free power for four years now, which has saved us over $25,000 to date compared to an $8000 outlay up front.
I plan to set up solar in my house in the next few years. My city suffered severe storms 5 weeks ago and hundreds of thousands of people were without power. Trees took out a lot of the infrastructure. Most were without power for several days, but others were out for up to 5-6 days. Mine was out for almost 4 days, which is a rude awakening when it is hot and still have to function and go to work. A lot of citizens were mad that it took so long, but that is the dilemma of a city with a lot of trees and power lines above ground.

I don't think deniers understand the effects quite yet. And thus far some will deny regardless what happens.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, it's about the gullibility of the cult of warm.
The only gullibility is those in denial, like yourself. Remember, your ilk are the ones who ignore what experts report. Just like creationists you are on the wrong side of intelligent.

And again you completely evaded the moral dilemma your side has in its lap. What if you are wrong? What if your defiance and indifference is what allows more severe effects of cliamte and deaths accumulate? No comment? It is the deliberate deafness to the suffering of others that allows evil to be justifed, as we see all through history.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
No, it's about the gullibility of the cult of warm.
The gullible ones are the dopes duped in science denial by fossil fuel industry lobbyists trying to protect profits by fighting regulation.
The gullible ones are the dopes who believe - despite the lack of any evidence or plausibility - that all of the world's scientists are collaborating on some convoluted conspiracy/hoax from which they would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, just for ****s and giggles.

Climate change deniers, vaccine deniers, evolution deniers, spherical earth deniers, etc. are all cut from the same cloth of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and scientific illiteracy.

Science is your friend, not your enemy. The scientific method is objective and impartial. You have it to thank for your medicine and technology.
 
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