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Climate Change - Bad News

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Personally I really dont care if humans CAUSE climate change, what I want to know is how humans can PREVENT climate change - regardless of the cause it is happening, thus needs to be dealt with.

As for population, there is good reason there were only a couple billion of us until a century ago. (BTW wtf are major cities parked on the best agricultural land?) We might be able to have a sustainable population of perhaps 4-5 billion.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
And what change have we seen in climate that has never happened before?

The summers here are getting longer and hotter, the winters shorter and drier.

There used to be an annual thunderstorm heralding a nice, wet winter where I live. No longer.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I don't drive, and probably never will.

I remember when Mexico City shut down and mandated that everyone stay inside to prevent bird flu from spreading, and the news reported that the air cleaned up so much after no cars on the road, that people were breaking curfew just to breathe it in.

I wonder how much such a measure would affect pollution levels around the world?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
There has always been climate change, its been happening for thousands of years, we seem to make a big deal out of it these days, as if the weather should behave itself just for us.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I expect that we need to change our dependency on such things and turn to cleaner renewable energy sources such as solar.

Investment in renewable energy, not dirty cheap energy sources.

It's all well and good to suggest and long term I agree.

Putting it into perspective though I don't think our economy can afford to take such a hit.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
If you think that overpopulation is a "myth" - as in false - you're simply ignorant, no offense. All species are limited by the carrying capacity of the environment. Without exception. It is sheer ecological ignorance to think any species can grow exponentially and not run itself into a wall.

It's not a density issue, it's a resources issue. It doesn't matter where the population is located with respect to this issue, it's about how many resources it takes to sustain that population. Dense cities exist only because transportation allows for it: it allows movement of resources to the populations that need them. Spreading out the population will not solve the issue. That "unpopulated" land you're talking about? That's what's sustaining the current population. And it's not really doing a good job, as there are already problems with the resource-to-population elements. It would be doing a significantly worse job if we chewed up more of our farmland for parking lots and suburbs. Never mind the rights of the non-human world to exist. What, are we going to continue screwing them over to compensate for our gluttony?

There is the issue of supply and demand associated with urbanisation/concentration of populations when you consider the user: producer ratio.

In Australia (from my uni days) we did a paper on the dwindling communities which supply our cities. The problem is demand grows but the experienced producers are shrinking because profitability is shrinking with our major suppliers squeezing every dollar in a bidding war for low prices.
 
Does it matter if the term “global warming” has been modified to the more inclusive term “climate change”? How meaningful is the exact figure of increase in temperatures in the past century except to the climatologists? Can’t you observe the changes that have been occurring in the world without such numbers? Does is accomplish anything to point finger at those in the positions of power, those in the wealthier nations, or those in poorer nations contributing to the increase of world population? How long can people debate on whether the climate change is manmade or not? If it isn’t manmade, are people going to stand on the beach watching the Tsunami rolling in without taking any actions? Debates can be helpful in educating others and even healthy to a certain extent, but they must be followed by true actions to contribute beneficially or they are merely complaints and noises in the mental environment that stir up more conflicts.

Overpopulation is, indeed, the one cause that has generated either directly or indirectly all the global issues that humanity is facing now. It is not about children, but about the humane decisions each individual adult can make to create a sustainable world for current and future generations. It is not just the third world countries that are contributing to the global overpopulation, but also those wealthier nations that are squandering the world resources. For example, the United States with about 4.5% of the world population consumes more than 25% of all the resources used in the world. That is, the country is consuming like a nation with almost 1.8 billion citizens.

Humanity has now surpassed the tipping point. It cannot do anything now to reverse the climate change or prevent the Great Waves of Change. It can only adapt to the circumstances it has created through misuse, abuse, and overuse. It must cease all conflicts which will further degrade the precious environment and accelerate depletion of resources. In order for it to survive and have any meaningful future, the human race must all learn to cooperate now out of necessity.

The world will see more devastations to a greater scale and intensities. While poorer nations that have not contributed as much to the current reality have already been suffering the consequences, wealthier nations and individuals are not immune to the Great Waves of Change.

What is needed here is the true recognition of the situation, and of the need to prepare for future so that people can be contributors rather than part of the problems. The more people that are prepared in the world, the better chance for the survival and a meaningful future the human race will have.

What is called for here is the renewal of human spirit and individual’s inner preparation.

The future will be overwhelming. You feel this deep within yourself.

How will you prepare?

If you wait until the evidence is overwhelming, it will be too late for you to make any wise preparations. Then your position will be untenable. Then you will be in a position of extreme powerlessness and vulnerability. Then your options will be very few. ~ from The Great Waves of Change
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
The summers here are getting longer and hotter, the winters shorter and drier.

There used to be an annual thunderstorm heralding a nice, wet winter where I live. No longer.

Not here..the summers are getting shorter and not as hot..the winters?We will see this year but last 2 years mild...
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Certainly we could act to mitigate it; to what extent such mitigation might be effective is unclear at this stage, but there is no doubt that it is far too early to assert our inability to prevent climate change, there are an immense variety of advancements human kind have developed that we once thought impossible - so I am unwilling to accept (before we even really begin) that we cannot do anything to stop this.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All species are limited by the carrying capacity of the environment.
This is a bit ridiculous. 70,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, 5,000 years ago, etc., a only a small percentage of humans that now survive on this planet could have. In many places where humans now live, they could not have. The carrying capacity of the environment changes for humans with technological advancement. Prior to agriculture, only small groups were possible. About 10,000 years ago we start seeing changes that, in a few millennia, outstripped beyond imagining anything that had occurred in tens of thousands of years. It couldn't occur then. Our "carrying capacity" is so much more difficult to determine than for other species (just ask Malthus, who said we should all be dead, or Ehrlich, who predicted 40 years ago that the world we know 20 years ago couldn't possibly exist). We can't predict technological innovations that will allow the growth of the human species that has persisted for the past 10,000 years or so, but we can't depend on them to prevent us from changing the phase space either. It's one thing to recognize that unrestricted growth has limits and that we can't depend on some miracle cure or save to get us out of trouble. But to say we are limited by the environment when current energy projects range from satellite transmission of energy to nuclear power is to say that we are limited by physics.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Actually the carrying capacity hasnt changed that much (as evidenced by the impact on said environment) certainly it is non static, but it isnt dependant on our technology so much as we might like to think - because we do not even really attempt to address the negative externalities of human existence which are borne by the environment, the carrying capacity really is subject to those negative externalities, it is merely that we humans are sufficiently developed that other, less advanced organisms have to bear the cost instead of us (which is why so many species have gone extinct because of our actions)
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
It's all well and good to suggest and long term I agree.

Putting it into perspective though I don't think our economy can afford to take such a hit.

the atmosphere is our lifeline, not money.

We can live without money, we can't live without our atmosphere....and it needs to be stable for the earth to be productive.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually the carrying capacity hasnt changed that much (as evidenced by the impact on said environment) certainly it is non static, but it isnt dependant on our technology so much as we might like to think

Modern humans have been on this planet for 10s of thousands of years. For the bulk of that time, modern carrying capacities were nothing compared to what are now.

"The primary importance of dating methods in archaeology is in analyzing cultural changes. To take an example, some have argued (chapter 6) that people first domesticated sheep and goats and began farming wheat and barley in the Middle East because human population densities had risen to the point that people could no longer survive on hunting and gathering alone. Other people suggest that rising population densities had little to do directly with the origins of agriculture in this area."

Wenke, R. J., & Olszewski, D. (2007). Patterns in prehistory: humankind's first three million years (5th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

"To compensate for this, between about 11,000 and 10,000 years ago, the peoples of the Fertile Crescent initiated a process of cultivation and artificial selection. They planted seeds of wild cereal varieties, such as einkorn and emmer (both ancient types of wheat), that retained their seeds most effectively during harvesting and that bore those seeds in concentrated clusters. The earliest grain cultivators would also have applied another level of selection by planting the seeds of the most vigorous and productive individuals of their preferred species. At first, such planting was done to supplement the gathering of wild cereals, and only later would it have become a mainstay. The radical innovation in human economic and social existence that this development heralded may well have been spurred by climatic change, but it was made possible by the convergence of a number of unrelated factors that must have included social and technological innovations, as well as the availability in the local environment of species suitable for domestication.
Wheat was soon joined as a cultivated crop in the Fertile Crescent by barley and by legumes such as lentils and chickpeas. Just a few miles north of the better-known Neolithic site of Jericho, in the Jordan Valley, lies what remains of Netiv Hagdud, a farming village that was occupied between about 9,800 and 9,500 years ago. Excavated in the 1980s, Netiv Hagdud provides a unique glimpse of the very beginnings of farming in the Fertile Crescent. The site covers about four acres and preserves the floors and foundations of a number of square and oval mud-brick houses. It is hard to know exactly how these structures were used by their inhabitants, but it is estimated that the village housed some twenty to thirty families, a total of between 100 and 200 people. This would make Netiv Hagdud about average in size for the time, with a population about half that of Jericho but considerably larger than that of some other contemporaneous settlements."
pp. 110-111

Tattersall, I. (2008). The world from beginnings to 4000 BCE. Oxford University Press.

because we do not even really attempt to address the negative externalities of human existence which are borne by the environment
This is impossible, as we are part of the environment. The environment is in constant flux and always has been. The most radical change occurred billions and billions of years before humans existed. Sometimes I wonder how much of some environmental thinking is just a distorted sense of human importance. There is no delicate balance and never has been. Most species that ever existed are extinct, the most devastating destruction of life this planet has seen was before humans existed, and if we dump gallons upon gallons of waste into rivers, dump nuclear waste wherever we want, and burn coal just for the heck of it, we'll kill off ecosystems like there was no tomorrow and probably all die, and it would be nothing that hasn't happened before.


the carrying capacity really is subject to those negative externalities

This planet is a network of complex systems far from thermodynamic equilibrium. If it were that delicate, life wouldn't exist. Chaotic systems like earth fluctuate wildly within certain bounds. Changes, even drastic changes, don't do much most of the time. Climate change originated when the version of "chaos theory" called catastrophe theory (now "dynamical systems" or "complex systems") was in vogue. The focus has shifted from the emphasis on phase space changes catastrophe theory had, but criticality still exists. Lots of little changes can still result in an avalanche. The problem is not externalities as some ecosystems depend upon human development now just as much as others are being destroyed by it. The problem is knowing what changes are doing what. And we don't know, despite the arbitrary rise in a 5% confidence by the latest idiocy out of that political disaster we call the IPCC. They're are only slightly more scientific than the NIPCC. Are humans warming the planet? Almost certainly yes. Are they doing so to a dangerous degree? Again almost certainly yes. Should things be done, like investing in green energy? Even if humans weren't warming the planet, again yes. Are we trusting political summaries too much? Well, don't take my word for it:
A very grand challenge for the science of climate prediction

See also:

From the INI's Mathematical and Statistical Approaches to Climate Modelling and Prediction, "After Climategate and Cancun; What Next for Climate Science?"
[youtube]vSdAS-z5-8w[/youtube]
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Not here..the summers are getting shorter and not as hot..the winters?We will see this year but last 2 years mild...

Well, that's why they call it "climate change" rather than "global warming", I think, because some parts of the world are getting colder.

But it's still changing.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a bit ridiculous. 70,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, 5,000 years ago, etc., a only a small percentage of humans that now survive on this planet could have. In many places where humans now live, they could not have. The carrying capacity of the environment changes for humans with technological advancement. Prior to agriculture, only small groups were possible. About 10,000 years ago we start seeing changes that, in a few millennia, outstripped beyond imagining anything that had occurred in tens of thousands of years. It couldn't occur then. Our "carrying capacity" is so much more difficult to determine than for other species (just ask Malthus, who said we should all be dead, or Ehrlich, who predicted 40 years ago that the world we know 20 years ago couldn't possibly exist). We can't predict technological innovations that will allow the growth of the human species that has persisted for the past 10,000 years or so, but we can't depend on them to prevent us from changing the phase space either. It's one thing to recognize that unrestricted growth has limits and that we can't depend on some miracle cure or save to get us out of trouble. But to say we are limited by the environment when current energy projects range from satellite transmission of energy to nuclear power is to say that we are limited by physics.

None of this means the carrying capacity doesn't exist, and none of this means that there are not limits. Obviously CC's change; this is recognized in the science of ecology. But it is sheer nonsense to suggest that CC's and limits don't exist. It's also sheer nonsense to suggest a population can continue to grow indefinitely. But worse in my mind, it is sickeningly unethical and speciesist to ignore the sixth mass extinction that we've induced due to "modifying" our global CC. It is sickening that we are not collectively outraged by doing something several orders of magnitude worse than genocide. That this alone is not enough to motivate humans to change their habits is beyond a bloody outrage.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
None of this means the carrying capacity doesn't exist
Of course. Just that they're currently beyond any modelling capable we have when it comes to humans. That's why they have failed again and again. That's no reason not to worry about it of course (and do something about it), but we change our carrying capacity. Significantly. In ways that are incomparable with any other species. Again, that's not to say we should have a free-for-all or that:

there are not limits
There are limits. But we don't know what these are for humans and the limits proposed have continuously been wrong. One of the central issues in climate science is the public. The public tends to see the climate science's doomsday warnings and blatantly biased policies (as evidenced by the various climate change scandals) as evidence that climate science is politics. Some climate scientists have recognized that (hence my link to an esteemed climate scientist's talk on the matter), while others continue to think the best policy is to try to drown out "skeptical" voices by shrieking like an air raid siren. It doesn't work. The more doomsday prophecies that go unfilled, the less seriously issues like overpopulation and climate change are taken. Pretending that we're continuously on the brink of disaster has been wrong, probably is wrong, and probably will be right so long as the public continually gets bombarded by prophecies of impending doom that turn out to be wrong. The media reports of the IPCC report state that the findings show that the current 15 year cycle of no real warming is too short to say anything about a general trend. 15 years before that warming was a 30 year period of cooling. Before that was a warming that was largely due to non-anthropogenic forcings. You'll have to excuse my irritability about this. I've been waiting for the climate science community to, on the whole, get their act together and start reporting what is actually represented in the literature and what they say to each other in conferences rather than try to stem the tide of nay-sayers by acting like the end is nigh. It's all very motivational, until 30 years of climate predictions turn out wrong.

But worse in my mind, it is sickeningly unethical and speciesist to ignore the sixth mass extinction that we've induced due to "modifying" our global CC.
Personally, I find it elitist to think that we are somehow supposed to be guardians of life on this planet by thinking that we should be the only species on this planet giving a crap about any other. There is no "mass extinction" yet, although there may be and I believe we should do something about it. But we've tried "modifying" things in the past, including the awful failures from conservation. Ecosystems are dynamical systems. They can't be preserved and some of them now depend on our development. Pretending that humans are some awful scourge on an otherwise balanced planet is just naïve.

That this alone is not enough to motivate humans to change their habits is beyond a bloody outrage.
This I agree with.
 
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illykitty

RF's pet cat
None of this means the carrying capacity doesn't exist, and none of this means that there are not limits. Obviously CC's change; this is recognized in the science of ecology. But it is sheer nonsense to suggest that CC's and limits don't exist. It's also sheer nonsense to suggest a population can continue to grow indefinitely. But worse in my mind, it is sickeningly unethical and speciesist to ignore the sixth mass extinction that we've induced due to "modifying" our global CC. It is sickening that we are not collectively outraged by doing something several orders of magnitude worse than genocide. That this alone is not enough to motivate humans to change their habits is beyond a bloody outrage.

I don't think it's possible for Earth to house an infinitely growing population and a ever more rapidly consuming society but you need to keep in mind some societies consume a lot more than they need and stuff is made to be replaced all the time.

That's why we need education on these subjects... Perhaps have an encouragement from society to not have too many children (I don't think we need to go China on this) and a shift in mindset.

Use alternative power, systems such as vertical farming with aquaponics, products made to last and with tech, easily upgradable and recyclable... Stop having fads that promotes people buying things they will forget in a month.

It's wishful thinking on my part, since I don't know if our species is clever enough to realise we need to change, drastically. :shrug:
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
the atmosphere is our lifeline, not money.

We can live without money, we can't live without our atmosphere....and it needs to be stable for the earth to be productive.

I think my previous statement is relevant again. There is reality and there is the philosophy of those with their head in the clouds.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Well, that's why they call it "climate change" rather than "global warming", I think, because some parts of the world are getting colder.

But it's still changing.
It can theoretically cause a small ice age where I live, if I remember correctly. So I guess "climate change" is a more accurate term. In any case, it would be horrible if that would happen, lol.

Sometimes people seem to forget how much the climate change can affect us. We are after all living on the planet, what happens to the climate is directly our concern if we care about our lives and our childrens lives.
 
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