Climate change denial

[GoodAttention]

The system we live in requires these things. That is the mentality that people are raised to believe in, you constantly need the newest and best thing.

But a lot of this could be solved if this artificial demand wasn't there and that is the biggest problem as I see it. We need to produce things smarter than we do now, we should encourage high-quality products, upgradable and repairing things rather than just throwing them in the bin.

You often wonder how things made in the 50-60s can still work today, whereas modern stuff often breaks within a very short period of time, because everything is created from cheap plastic etc. And when it breaks it's done for most of the time.

In the period of 20 years we added 2 billion humans to the planet. At the same time almost 800 million people were taken out of poverty, all thanks to consumerism and the churning of goods. Fast, cheap, quantity.

There have been lots of changes throughout time, inequality was far worse back in the day than it is now. But still, we have kind of stagnated in the development of the economic and political systems. It's the same old "broken" system being patched, rather than trying to progress it further and improve it.

Yeah. I don't think economics or politics will change. Problem is people are too comfortable.

Change will eventually come, I agree, but it would be preferable if things didn't become worse before that happens, it would be nice for a change to make an intelligent and calm transition rather than through violence and collapse

There's nothing new to appreciate. I think we maxed out at 4G resolution, 5G internet, smart phones, cars, music, cinema. I think we are close to becoming worse.

Haha yes. I want to say I agree but there is a calm and beauty I think I can appreciate to watch the world burn.

 

[wellwisher]

Yes, there is this attitude of those who cannot see how particularly inexorable the destruction of our planet is: through the disappearance of lakes, rivers, and forests, that used to exist even 30,000 years ago, and that now are the result of the overexploitation of our planet.
More people on Earth= more human activities to produce all the electricity we need to support these people.
It's undeniable. We are destroying our planet, and the climate has definitively changed.
Nothing's gonna be the same again.

Why are so many people in denial?

The denial is not about climate change, but about the manmade up climate change. We know, for example, the peak of the most current glacial maximal period was about 18,000 year ago when sea level was 120 meters lower than today. By the time the man made up aspect for global warming and climate change appeared, in say 1860, natural global warming and natural climate change has already raised sea level by 119.3 meters. Yet the models do not give Mother Nature much credit as being a major contributing factor.

Below are two graphs of sea level as a function of time. I present it to show how nature has done this many times. On the bottom graph it shows the sea level has been rising since about 18,000 years ago. We are still in that warming cycle. The top graphs show mother nature has done this many times before, even over the past million years. This is natural to the earth, and since the earth and life is still here, this change is normal. There is no need to panic, kill the world economy and install global authoritarian socialism.

Man made climate change, even if true, is a unique occurrence in science. One occurrence of a theory is not enough to validate any theory. Isn't science supposed to run duplicate experiments before going to market and selling? As an analogous example of what I am saying, not long ago a team said they had a unique occurrence of cold fusion. Did we run with that, or was science acting more adult before drinking the kool-aid based on potential fame and fortune? Others were allowed to test and try to falsify the theory. No other team could duplicate that unique occurrence. Nature has many occurrences of global warming and climate change and is therefore the better theory in terms of following the rules of the philosophy of science. One can draw any graph through one occurrence point, including bogeyman scenarios.

Beyond that, the political side that is pushing man made up climate change are the Progressives, in general and the DNC in the USA. They are notorious for lying, running scams, money laundering tax payer money via their scams, applying political pressure, and now even law fair to silence opposition. The term denier sounds like one of the propaganda memes from their playbook. Denier is a derivative of same technique for calling someone racist, is they wish to discuss black on black crime in Democrat run cities. The goal is to silence opposition so the truth does not spoil their lies and coverups.

Water is the main variable for our earth's climate, not CO2. Water is the only material on earth that exists in three phases all at the same time and has the capacity to control climate. The proportion of these phases of water determine sea level and ice cover, as well as the amount of water in the atmosphere which then drives weather. Whether is about water vapor become liquid; rain, and solid; snow. Water is continuous from the atmosphere to the core of the earth and thereby impacts crustal plates and heat coming from the inner earth.

Water as ice reflects light and heat and adds a cooling effect to the earth, while water as liquid and gas absorb heat. The ratio of ice to surface water determines whether we get colder or warmer. Once the ice pack gets large enough there is run away cooling effect. The same is true as the ice cover melts to a certain surface area level, then we have a run away heating effect. If you look at the bottom graph at the upper left of the graph, sea level was already 10 meter higher than today and fell to the present level before Man made up, took credit.

 

[Quintessence]

That comic is very nice...but it may have a point in the short run.
Not in the long run.

Yes, in the long run. I repeat - Earth has had FIVE other mass extinction events.

It has nothing to do with the soil (Earth). It's all about the presence of an atmosphere which many earth-like planets lack.
No atmosphere, no life on Earth. Because it's the atmosphere that protects Earth from the dangerous UV rays and other deadly radiations.
If we alter the atmosphere, a chain reaction can cause the slow undoing of the atmosphere.

Which hasn't - and isn't - happening. For flips sake, keep going with nonsense this if you want to create another "climate science" denialist out of a life long environmental advocate and literal Earth worshiper.

 

[metis]

The damage has been done. What we do today to battle climate change won't be felt for 300/1000's of years, if even then.
At current we have no choice but to keep making it worse

A journey starts with one step.

The think scaring many climate scientists is that the rate of global warming is faster than what they thought even only a decade ago.

 

[Pogo]

Correlation does not prove causation.

True, but in this case, physics does prove the reason. It is not a question, it is a result of the properties of the gasses in the atmosphere and their relative abundances.

I don't deny climate change. We are currently in an interglacial period of an Ice Age, so yes, there will be climate change. I don't know if humans can tip the climate change towards a superinterglacial or if it will go back to a glacial period, and which one would be better for humans or the planet. What we can do is to clean things up and preserve ecosystems as the glacial cycle is associated with mass extinctions.

In the last 400k years through however many glacial cycles in that time the CO2 has not exceeded ~300 ppm at the warm end and gone below ~170 at the cool end. We are currently pushing toward 450ppm due to our additions since the industrial revolution. The rate of change etc is not in the range of normal variation, it is human caused.

It will help to reduce fossil fuel use, reduce ocean and other habitat pollution, and reduce other greenhouse gases. Plants are the basis of our ecosystems, and you don't want to smother the respiration of the basis of our ecosystems.

In other words, I'm more concerned with the mass extinctions than anything else.

Yes there are a lot of other things we are doing that are causing mass extinctions and they are important too, but the greenhouse gas problem is global and changing things at a rate that will be hard for evolution to keep up with.

 

[Pogo]

That comic is very nice...but it may have a point in the short run.
Not in the long run.
It has nothing to do with the soil (Earth). It's all about the presence of an atmosphere which many earth-like planets lack.
No atmosphere, no life on Earth. Because it's the atmosphere that protects Earth from the dangerous UV rays and other deadly radiations.
If we alter the atmosphere, a chain reaction can cause the slow undoing of the atmosphere.

So...yes, we have harmed Earth beyond repair. And people forget that Venus once billions of years ago, was very similar to Earth. Now it's a raging inferno because it lost its atmosphere.

Atmospheric composition may change but it is not going anywhere anytime soon. Nothing we are doing is relevant to losing it, only the ability of earth to support the current flora and fauna.

 

[Pogo]

Climate change is real but it's not what is being said officially.

By whom and how so?

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, in the long run. I repeat - Earth has had FIVE other mass extinction events.



Which hasn't - and isn't - happening. For flips sake, keep going with nonsense this if you want to create another "climate science" denialist out of a life long environmental advocate and literal Earth worshiper.

Honestly I believe that human presence (and by these numbers) is more powerful and destructive than any catastrophe or any meteorite or any other event that Earth has ever gone through in her own 4 billions years.
And yes, I believe that human activities can literally destroy the atmosphere.

 

[Quintessence]

Honestly I believe that human presence (and in this numbers) is more powerful and destructive that any catastrophe or any meteorite or any other event that Earth has ever gone through in her own 4 billions years.
And yes, I believe that human activities can literally destroy the atmosphere.

Human narcissism and arrogance never cease to impress, I suppose...

... but if you were wanting to make a case for the aggressive extermination of all humans, I guess you've made it? Personally, not a fan. And I'm a supporter of VHEMNT.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Which hasn't - and isn't - happening. For flips sake, keep going with nonsense this if you want to create another "climate science" denialist out of a life long environmental advocate and literal Earth worshiper.

Before you do, just remember that making "climate change denialists" out of environmental advocates is sometimes the plan of people engaging in radical views. Just cut through the noise and focus on sane scientific thinking and rational ethics to keep to your ideals.

 

[Quintessence]

Before you do, just remember that making "climate change denialists" out of environmental advocates is sometimes the plan of people engaging in radical views. Just cut through the noise and focus on sane scientific thinking and rational ethics to keep to your ideals.

Haha... a good point to raise. Don't worry - this is not likely to happen. I just get really disgusted at some of the over-the-top rhetoric that happens sometimes. Some of the problem is most folks probably haven't studied a lot of Earth's history. They don't have a geologic scale view of time. Humans have been around for a faction of a blink of an eye. Earth has been through astounding changes and transformations. It is a dynamic system that is always changing, just as the universe as a whole is. The real question to me is - how do humans relate to the greater-than-human forces around them?

 

[Estro Felino]

Human narcissism and arrogance never cease to impress, I suppose...

... but if you were wanting to make a case for the aggressive extermination of all humans, I guess you've made it? Personally, not a fan. And I'm a supporter of VHEMNT.

Interesting. I am not. I am a moderate anti-Natalist. But I perfectly understand the VHEM.
Do you also know why in the West the politicians say that we are below the replacement level...blah, blah, blah...?
Because they need future slaves to exploit. So they restlessly deafen people's ears with the mantra that they should make babies.

Imagine if we were fewer. The working class was absolutely united and fighting against the big capital.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Haha... a good point to raise. Don't worry - this is not likely to happen. I just get really disgusted at some of the over-the-top rhetoric that happens sometimes. Some of the problem is most folks probably haven't studied a lot of Earth's history. They don't have a geologic scale view of time. Humans have been around for a faction of a blink of an eye. Earth has been through astounding changes and transformations. It is a dynamic system that is always changing, just as the universe as a whole is. The real question to me is - how do humans relate to the greater-than-human forces around them?

Humans are so weird in that we are planners and storytellers who both prepare for the future and like to hold on to the past, but I think our sense of time gets screwed by our inability to conceptualize large numbers in relation to ourselves. We're very anthropocentric in that even in science we struggle to look at a universe in ways that don't involve our relationship to it.

Like I live amongst the Appalachian mountains and I try to remember these mountains predate life. It's awe-inspiring.

 

[Estro Felino]

Humans are so weird in that we are planners and storytellers who both prepare for the future and like to hold on to the past, but I think our sense of time gets screwed by our inability to conceptualize large numbers in relation to ourselves. We're very anthropocentric in that even in science we struggle to look at a universe in ways that don't involve our relationship to it.

Like I live amongst the Appalachian mountains and I try to remember these mountains predate life. It's awe-inspiring.

Humans are not aware of death.
They don't. They think they will live for eternity.
That is why they stockpile things they don't need or procreate. Because they think they will be enjoying matter forever.

Which is a matter of awareness, I believe. Degrees of awareness. Even Christians speak of degrees of awareness.

 

[Estro Felino]

Atmospheric composition may change but it is not going anywhere anytime soon. Nothing we are doing is relevant to losing it, only the ability of earth to support the current flora and fauna.

Climate disasters are more and more frequent.
I guess one should be optimistic, of course. But excessive optimism is Pollyanna syndrome.

 

[Nimos]

In the period of 20 years we added 2 billion humans to the planet. At the same time almost 800 million people were taken out of poverty, all thanks to consumerism and the churning of goods. Fast, cheap, quantity.

True and also each person's footprint on the world has gone up by quite a lot with all the electronics, cars etc. Without knowing, I wouldn't be surprised if 5000+ people 1500 years ago would have had the same amount of footprint as a single modern human has today.

Yeah. I don't think economics or politics will change. Problem is people are too comfortable.

Those in power are definitely.

However, a change shouldn't reduce people's living standards it should improve them, overall obviously such an effect would have the biggest impact on the poor. The problem is those in power are part of the whole game that is going on, and I'm not even sure they could solve it even if they wanted to. The system is so interlocked that you can't really do anything new in it, besides just keep adjusting the current one.

Probably the only way I could see it change without a collapse is through automation and reducing the cost of products to the point where money doesn't really make sense anymore. So we look at things in the same way as random plastic bags on the street which has little to no value. And almost everything could be recycled to its original materials from which they were made, so they could be used for crafting improved versions.

But that would require a functional UBI system where you try to keep it alive artificially, but eventually, that will run its course as well and simply not make any sense.

What is really needed is a change in how we do things and how we think about stuff, it's a culture or value thing as I see it that has to be shifted towards something else.

There's nothing new to appreciate. I think we maxed out at 4G resolution, 5G internet, smart phones, cars, music, cinema. I think we are close to becoming worse.

Haha yes. I want to say I agree but there is a calm and beauty I think I can appreciate to watch the world burn.

Yeah, it is like watching a trainwreck in extreme slow-motion

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you know of any datasets that have CO2 levels for Marine Isotope Stages? (Specifically for the super-interglacials compared to regular interglacials? MIS 5 and MIS 11 would probably be a great place to investigate.) If CO2 levels differ between them, and we can either nudge towards a super-interglacial or towards a glacial period, which way should we go?

The only way that I know of to take the temperature of the whole ocean is to go by ice core data. You can get isotope data for specific locales in the ocean, but that does not give temperature for the entire ocean. I do not know of any comprehensive project that covers all of the seas.

Also, the CO2 dissolved in the ocean does not tell us very much about CO2 in the atmosphere and that is the only CO2 we need to take into consideration when it comes to climate.

 

[Quintessence]

Like I live amongst the Appalachian mountains and I try to remember these mountains predate life. It's awe-inspiring.

I really should go see them sometime. I live in the Midwest, so while I've seen mountains on family trips it is not something present in my day-to-day awareness. There are geologically interesting places here as well - I visited a fossil gorge once and the energy of that place was something else - an incomprehensibly old and ancient thing far beyond my understanding. Honestly, part of what keeps me from getting too depressed about humans causing a sixth mass extinction is keeping in mind geologic time scales. It is truly astounding the transformations this planet has undergone but our lifespans are vanishingly too short to really grasp it. I think about the fact that where I sit right now was at one time, an ocean. An ocean!

 

[We Never Know]

A journey starts with one step.

Yep. That's why by 2030 all new cars should be at least hybrid. And keep on working to perfect electric instead of rushing it.

The think scaring many climate scientists is that the rate of global warming is faster than what they thought even only a decade ago.

It isn't going to slow down in our lifetime. However still coming out of the last ice age and our pollution it is likely to keep gaining speed

 

[Heyo]

The denial is not about climate change, but about the manmade up climate change.

That's just retracting to the mote. Climate change deniers can't deny climate change any more, as it is clear to see. Now they try to deny human involvement. But as I already pointed out in post #30, CO2 from the natural cycle is different from CO2 created by burning fossil fuel. The ratios of C12, C13 and C14 are measurable, and we know how much of the CO2 is anthropogenic.

So, referring again to post #30, are you just science illiterate or do you have an agenda?

And, are you going to retract further to "yes, it's anthropogenic, but we can't do anything about it"? That's the next step by those who deny reality and don't want to take responsibility.