Coach led prayer on high school football field

[Skwim]

"A high school football coach in Washington state is being investigated by the school district for the post-game prayers he engages in with players and coaches.

Joe Kennedy, Bremerton High School's varsity assistant head coach and JV head coach, is being investigated by the Bremerton School District for potential violations of district policy, which states that "school staff shall neither encourage nor discourage" students from praying. Per King 5, [TV news station] it is not clear what prompted the investigation, though it's likely the result of a parent complaint, and presumably focuses on Kennedy's role in the prayer and how and why the students join him.

In a ritual that has been ongoing "for years," after each Bremerton football game Kennedy holds a prayer at the 50-yard line. He indicated to Mikkelsen and Graf [news casters] that he has "never asked anyone" to join him and that the attendance for his prayers varies - sometimes he's alone at midfield, sometimes he's joined by a group of players that includes both Bremerton kids and the opposition."
source

Lawful or not? ​

 

[Nietzsche]

So long as no one's forced to be there, I don't give a damn.

 

[dust1n]

And the snap.

Johnson faking a quick pass. Scrambles a bit, no, no a throw. A throw to Spegal. It's a long one. Spegal is out ahead. And... he... grabs it. He's looking at open field. The safeties just can't keep up. HE's at The 50, at 40, 30, 25, 20, will he make it?, 10.... Let us kneel and pray. Father that is in heaven. We thank you for the blessings of an exhilarating sports game, and opportunity for these kids to come out and play and serve you, Lord, and give testament to you, Lord. We pray for a safe game, Lord, with a minimal number of concessions Lord, and just... hope... that this opportunity you have given them will bring grace to your name. Amen...

TOUCHDOWN!!! The Thunderhawks are going to the playoffs.

 

[Deidre]

Yea, as long as no one is forced to participate. Faith should come naturally.

 

[Skwim]

And the snap.

Johnson faking a quick pass. Scrambles a bit, no, no a throw. A throw to Spegal. It's a long one. Spegal is out ahead. And... he... grabs it. He's looking at open field. The safeties just can't keep up. HE's at The 50, at 40, 30, 25, 20, will he make it?, 10.... Let us kneel and pray. Father that is in heaven. We thank you for the blessings of an exhilarating sports game, and opportunity for these kids to come out and play and serve you, Lord, and give testament to you, Lord. We pray for a safe game, Lord, with a minimal number of concessions Lord, and just... hope... that this opportunity you have given them will bring grace to your name. Amen...

TOUCHDOWN!!! The Thunderhawks are going to the playoffs.

And don't think a lot of people wouldn't like to do just that.

 

[Skwim]

Yea, as long as no one is forced to participate.

Not when it's on school property and led by a school employee.

 

[Nietzsche]

Not when it's on school property and led by a school employee.

A high-school football coach tends to be just the gym-teacher, who's coaching more or less on his or her own time. Most highschool fields are also public property. If the coach is there on their own time, they're not an employee. And it's not being done on school time, either. They're all there as private individuals.

 

[dust1n]

Not when it's on school property and led by a school employee.

"Joe Kennedy, Bremerton High School's varsity assistant head coach and JV head coach, is being investigated by the Bremerton School District for potential violations of district policy, which states that "school staff shall neither encourage nor discourage" students from praying."

Oh yeah, well in that case, he doesn't have much of a chance.

 

[Deidre]

Not when it's on school property and led by a school employee.

I agree. I understand. To me, he shouldn't be doing that. I'm sure there's no malice, BUT...then, where do we draw the line? Every other religion should have the 'right' to do so too? It can get ugly in a hurry.

 

[leibowde84]

"A high school football coach in Washington state is being investigated by the school district for the post-game prayers he engages in with players and coaches.

Joe Kennedy, Bremerton High School's varsity assistant head coach and JV head coach, is being investigated by the Bremerton School District for potential violations of district policy, which states that "school staff shall neither encourage nor discourage" students from praying. Per King 5, [TV news station] it is not clear what prompted the investigation, though it's likely the result of a parent complaint, and presumably focuses on Kennedy's role in the prayer and how and why the students join him.

In a ritual that has been ongoing "for years," after each Bremerton football game Kennedy holds a prayer at the 50-yard line. He indicated to Mikkelsen and Graf [news casters] that he has "never asked anyone" to join him and that the attendance for his prayers varies - sometimes he's alone at midfield, sometimes he's joined by a group of players that includes both Bremerton kids and the opposition."
source

Lawful or not? ​

If the team is funded by the state, then it is unlawful, imho. Obviously a private school coach would be fine.

 

[Skwim]

A high-school football coach tends to be just the gym-teacher, who's coaching more or less on his or her own time. Most highschool fields are also public property. If the coach is there on their own time, they're not an employee. And it's not being done on school time, either. They're all there as private individuals.

Don't know what public school system your familiar with, but in both that I've been in all the athletic coaches were part of the school staff, either as a gym instructor or a member of the academic teaching staff. And all the fields were part of school property; the public wasn't allowed to use them.

 

[leibowde84]

A high-school football coach tends to be just the gym-teacher, who's coaching more or less on his or her own time. Most highschool fields are also public property. If the coach is there on their own time, they're not an employee. And it's not being done on school time, either. They're all there as private individuals.

Is the team publicly funded, though. Football is madly expensive.

 

[Skwim]

I agree. I understand. To me, he shouldn't be doing that. I'm sure there's no malice, BUT...then, where do we draw the line?

You draw the line where it violates the law.

Every other religion should have the 'right' to do so too? It can get ugly in a hurry.

To do what? And why should anything be getting ugly?

Is the team is funded by the state, then it is unlawful, imho. Obviously a private school coach would be fine.

Yup.

 

[whereismynotecard]

The students should probably do their religious prayers on their own. Having the coach lead the prayer is inappropriate and opens the potential for certain players to feel extremely awkward and singled out. The second a player of a different religion or with no religion shows up, they are going to immediately feel alienated (and might already feel alienated if there are any such players already on the team.) Public school is not the place to promote or push any religion.

I know personally, if I were on a team and the coach was like, "Let's pray, everyone!" I'd be like, "Oh ****... Oh no! This is awkward. I want to leave..." :'( In fact, I feel like that all the time when my extended family tries to get everyone I'm related to to pray together. I feel like they are being extremely rude to assume everyone wants to pray to their god. No one ever asks. They just order the whole family to bow their heads in prayer, and I'm offended every time.

I can't imagine a scenario where this could be appropriate. The only way it's okay is if everyone on the team is the same religion and they were all okay with it, but then how did the coach find out they were all the same religion? Did he ask them? What if someone had said they weren't religious or said they were a different religion with different ways of praying? That one student would have been singled out right away.

There's nothing wrong with individuals praying, but no one should feel pressured into it, especially not by their teacher/coach.

 

[leibowde84]

The students should probably do their religious prayers on their own. Having the coach lead the prayer is inappropriate and opens the potential for certain players to feel extremely awkward and singled out. The second a player of a different religion or with no religion shows up, they are going to immediately feel alienated (and might already feel alienated if there are any such players already on the team.) Public school is not the place to promote or push any religion.

I know personally, if I were on a team and the coach was like, "Let's pray, everyone!" I'd be like, "Oh ****... Oh no! This is awkward. I want to leave..." :'( In fact, I feel like that all the time when my extended family tries to get everyone I'm related to to pray together. I feel like they are being extremely rude to assume everyone wants to pray to their god. No one ever asks. They just order the whole family to bow their heads in prayer, and I'm offended every time.

I can't imagine a scenario where this could be appropriate. The only way it's okay is if everyone on the team is the same religion and they were all okay with it, but then how did the coach find out they were all the same religion? Did he ask them? What if someone had said they weren't religious or said they were a different religion with different ways of praying? That one student would have been singled out right away.

There's nothing wrong with individuals praying, but no one should feel pressured into it, especially not by their teacher/coach.

I agree. The moment any minor is pressured into prayer or any religious belief, it becomes wrong.

 

[Draka]

If a group of students want to gather and pray on their own, that is fine. If they want to invite him in to their group, maintaining that it is student led, that is fine too. A school employee leading students in prayer during a school function and/or on school property is not allowed. An employee of the school is a representative of that school. If, while performing the duties of their job, they lead prayer for students then that is putting the school in a position to be judged as favoring one religion over another. Something that is not allowed in a public school.

 

[Deidre]

You draw the line where it violates the law.

agree

To do what? And why should anything be getting ugly?

Meaning, what this coach did, can turn into a slippery slope of other religious people feeling entitled to have the same experience. That could get ugly, because there should be a clear separation of 'church and state.'

 

[psychoslice]

As if God would care for a football game, when there is so much suffering in the world, and what about the other team, ha.

 

[Sees]

Doesn't bother me at all. Think people make it into a big deal more so because they can, not because it's actually a big deal.

 

[Quintessence]

Smells like more banishment of what culture puts in the box labeled "religion" to an unnecessary extent. Apparently, because the "secular" pep talks routinely given before a game are not put in the "religion" box, those are okay, even though they are functionally or precisely identical to various "religious" prayers.

There was an insightful comment I ran across in a reading somewhat recently regarding the reality of what "separation of church and state" actually means. Going to have to follow up on the literature there at some point, because it was quite poignant. Basic thrust of it is that this attempt to maintain separation basically just serves to hedge in what we call "religion" and what we don't call religion in a way that expresses strong cultural biases. As a religious minority I notice this a lot, as expressions of my religion would be put in the "secular" box and get a free pass. It's stupid, and inherently unfair.