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COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Tumah

Veteran Member
Hi Tumah, you would also know that in Hebrew that the application and meaning of a Hebrew word is in the context of other Hebrew words within the scripture context that determines the meaning not a Hebrew word that is in isolation to the scripture it is used in and outside of chapter context. For me though my argument to those claiming "THE LORDS DAY" in the Greek is that there is no scripture linking the Lords ownership of this day to Sunday or the first day of the week.
I have no idea what you are saying and how this relates to the argument I've made.

You are calling the Sabbath day, the "Lord's Day" and brought a number of verses from the Tanach where the word "day" and "lord" are present.
I replied that in none of those verses do we find the phrase "Lord's Day". All the verses you quoted simply had both those words - but none of them directly connected to each other.

I understand that the main thrust of your argument was to prove that Sunday is no the "Lord's Day". But you appear to have tried to do so, by saying that Saturday is. But I don't think you can prove that Sunday is not the "Lord's Day" by claiming that Saturday is called as such, when it's not.

If the phrase is not used anywhere in relation to this, I don't really see how context will somehow change that understanding.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you are saying and how this relates to the argument I've made.

You are calling the Sabbath day, the "Lord's Day" and brought a number of verses from the Tanach where the word "day" and "lord" are present.
I replied that in none of those verses do we find the phrase "Lord's Day". All the verses you quoted simply had both those words - but none of them directly connected to each other.

I understand that the main thrust of your argument was to prove that Sunday is no the "Lord's Day". But you appear to have tried to do so, by saying that Saturday is. But I don't think you can prove that Sunday is not the "Lord's Day" by claiming that Saturday is called as such, when it's not.

If the phrase is not used anywhere in relation to this, I don't really see how context will somehow change that understanding.

Sure I am calling the Sabbath day the Lord's day although this is in application to the Greek use in the new testament scriptures and the false claims of many Christian Churches to Revelation 1:10 and their claims to "THE LORDS DAY" being used as a reference to "Sunday" or "the first day of the week".

I am not discussing the Hebrew applications.

I am guessing you do not understand the application to Revelation 1:10 and it's relation to Matthew 12:8 as you missed the plane on the coming of the Messiah and his relationship to the Sabbath. Unless you understand and believe in the new testament application here you will not follow this argument very well. Nothing personal on your side or to you personally. It is just that you do not believe JESUS is the Messiah and the new covenant and testament scriptures.

So not much we can really talk about here I guess.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Sure I am calling the Sabbath day the Lord's day although this is in application to the Greek use in the new testament scriptures and the false claims of many Christian Churches to Revelation 1:10 and their claims to "THE LORDS DAY" being used as a reference to "Sunday" or "the first day of the week".

I am not discussing the Hebrew applications.

I am guessing you do not understand the application to Revelation 1:10 and it's relation to Matthew 12:8 as you missed the plane on the coming of the Messiah.

So not much we can really talk about here I guess.
Again, all this isn't relevant. You were discussing the Hebrew application when you quoted 13 verses from the Hebrew Tanach. It was that list I was addressing as you appear to indicate that the Sabbath is called the "Lord's Day" in them.

You may have noticed that in my original comment, I even went as far as cutting the list at the point where you move on to NT verses. That's because again, I'm only addressing the sources in the Tanach explaining that they do not say what your list implies they do.

Perhaps the NT does call some day by that name. I don't know. I've never read it and am only familiar with the passages that get quoted here on RF. But I'm not addressing the NT or Greek at all.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Again, all this isn't relevant. You were discussing the Hebrew application when you quoted 13 verses from the Hebrew Tanach. It was that list I was addressing as you appear to indicate that the Sabbath is called the "Lord's Day" in them.

You may have noticed that in my original comment, I even went as far as cutting the list at the point where you move on to NT verses. That's because again, I'm only addressing the sources in the Tanach explaining that they do not say what your list implies they do.

Perhaps the NT does call some day by that name. I don't know. I've never read it and am only familiar with the passages that get quoted here on RF. But I'm not addressing the NT or Greek at all.

Actually your probably getting me mixed up with someone else. I was not the one quoting 13 versus. Perhaps you need some rest. I am only discussing the Greek new testaments application of Revelation 1:10 to Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28 which is in referece to the Lords ownership of the day which has no reference to Sunday or the first day of the week which many Christians claim it does.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Actually your probably getting me mixed up with someone else. I was not the one quoting 13 versus. Perhaps you need some rest. I am only discussing the Greek new testaments application of Revelation 1:10 to Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28 which is in referece to the Lords ownership of the day which has no reference to Sunday or the first day of the week which many Christians claim it does.
You're right. I went back to look. We've been having two different conversations, because your reply followed my reply to someone else.
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
...If the phrase is not used anywhere in relation to this ...
It's closest in Isaiah:

Isa 58:13 אם־תשׁיב משׁבת רגלך עשׂות חפציך ביום קדשׁי וקראת לשׁבת ענג לקדושׁ יהוה מכבד וכבדתו מעשׂות דרכיך ממצוא חפצך ודבר דבר׃

Isa 58:13 אםH518 תשׁיבH7725 משׁבתH7676 רגלךH7272 עשׂותH6213 חפציךH2656 ביוםH3117 קדשׁיH6944 וקראתH7121 לשׁבתH7676 ענגH6027 לקדושׁH6918 יהוהH3068 מכבדH3513 וכבדתוH3513 מעשׂותH6213 דרכיךH1870 ממצואH4672 חפצךH2656 ודברH1696 דבר׃H1697

Isa 58:13 im-Täshiyv miSHaBät rag'lekhä ásôt cháfätzeykhä B'yôm qäd'shiy w'qärätä laSHaBät oneg liq'dôsh y'hwäh m'khuBäd w'khiBad'Tô mëásôt D'räkheykhä miM'tzô chef'tz'khä w'daBër Dävär

Isa 58:13 ἐὰν ἀποστρέψῃς τὸν πόδα σου ἀπὸ τῶν σαββάτων τοῦ μὴ ποιεῖν τὰ θελήματά σου ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἁγίᾳ καὶ καλέσεις τὰ σάββατα τρυφερά, ἅγια τῷ θεῷ σου, οὐκ ἀρεῖς τὸν πόδα σου ἐπ᾿ ἔργῳ οὐδὲ λαλήσεις λόγον ἐν ὀργῇ ἐκ τοῦ στόματός σου,

Isa 58:13 εανG1437 CONJ αποστρεψηςG654 V-AAS-2S τονG3588 T-ASM ποδαG4228 N-ASM σουG4771 P-GS αποG575 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPN σαββατωνG4521 N-GPN τουG3588 T-GSN μηG3165 ADV ποιεινG4160 V-PAN ταG3588 T-APN θεληματαG2307 N-APN σουG4771 P-GS ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF τηG3588 T-DSF αγιαG40 A-DSF καιG2532 CONJ καλεσειςG2564 V-FAI-2S ταG3588 T-APN σαββαταG4521 N-APN τρυφεραA-APN αγιαG40 A-APN τωG3588 T-DSM θεωG2316 N-DSM σουG4771 P-GS ουκG3364 ADV αρειςG142 V-FAI-2S τονG3588 T-ASM ποδαG4228 N-ASM σουG4771 P-GS επG1909 PREP εργωG2041 N-DSN ουδεG3761 CONJ λαλησειςG2980 V-FAI-2S λογονG3056 N-ASM ενG1722 PREP οργηG3709 N-DSF εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN στοματοςG4750 N-GSN σουG4771 P-GS

Isaiah 58:13 EXB “·You must obey God’s law about [L If you turn your foot away from…; C avoiding Sabbath journeys] the Sabbath and not do what pleases yourselves on that holy day. ·You should [L …and if you…] call the Sabbath a ·joyful day [delight] and honor it as the Lord’s holy day. ·You should [L …and if you…] honor it by not ·doing whatever you please [L going your own way] nor saying ·whatever you please [idle words] on that day.

Holy (H. qodesh; G. [h]agia) is just the adjective, while the day (H. yowm; G. hemera), the seventh day sabbath, is still the possession of the Lord.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
ZZzzz Let me know when you want to address the OP that shows why your in error. If you cannot why not thank God and believe his Word? Ignoring it does not make it dissappear.
COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

I have addressed the topic of this thread which is: ("COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?) And in doing so have revealed to all that you have not been telling the truth about the weekly Sabbath, which is but a shadow of the future reality, which is the great Sabbath of one thousand years. The Lord's day which is the seventh day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.

Good night mate.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It's closest in Isaiah:

Isa 58:13 אם־תשׁיב משׁבת רגלך עשׂות חפציך ביום קדשׁי וקראת לשׁבת ענג לקדושׁ יהוה מכבד וכבדתו מעשׂות דרכיך ממצוא חפצך ודבר דבר׃

Isa 58:13 אםH518 תשׁיבH7725 משׁבתH7676 רגלךH7272 עשׂותH6213 חפציךH2656 ביוםH3117 קדשׁיH6944 וקראתH7121 לשׁבתH7676 ענגH6027 לקדושׁH6918 יהוהH3068 מכבדH3513 וכבדתוH3513 מעשׂותH6213 דרכיךH1870 ממצואH4672 חפצךH2656 ודברH1696 דבר׃H1697

Isa 58:13 im-Täshiyv miSHaBät rag'lekhä ásôt cháfätzeykhä B'yôm qäd'shiy w'qärätä laSHaBät oneg liq'dôsh y'hwäh m'khuBäd w'khiBad'Tô mëásôt D'räkheykhä miM'tzô chef'tz'khä w'daBër Dävär

Isa 58:13 ἐὰν ἀποστρέψῃς τὸν πόδα σου ἀπὸ τῶν σαββάτων τοῦ μὴ ποιεῖν τὰ θελήματά σου ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἁγίᾳ καὶ καλέσεις τὰ σάββατα τρυφερά, ἅγια τῷ θεῷ σου, οὐκ ἀρεῖς τὸν πόδα σου ἐπ᾿ ἔργῳ οὐδὲ λαλήσεις λόγον ἐν ὀργῇ ἐκ τοῦ στόματός σου,

Isa 58:13 εανG1437 CONJ αποστρεψηςG654 V-AAS-2S τονG3588 T-ASM ποδαG4228 N-ASM σουG4771 P-GS αποG575 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPN σαββατωνG4521 N-GPN τουG3588 T-GSN μηG3165 ADV ποιεινG4160 V-PAN ταG3588 T-APN θεληματαG2307 N-APN σουG4771 P-GS ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF τηG3588 T-DSF αγιαG40 A-DSF καιG2532 CONJ καλεσειςG2564 V-FAI-2S ταG3588 T-APN σαββαταG4521 N-APN τρυφεραA-APN αγιαG40 A-APN τωG3588 T-DSM θεωG2316 N-DSM σουG4771 P-GS ουκG3364 ADV αρειςG142 V-FAI-2S τονG3588 T-ASM ποδαG4228 N-ASM σουG4771 P-GS επG1909 PREP εργωG2041 N-DSN ουδεG3761 CONJ λαλησειςG2980 V-FAI-2S λογονG3056 N-ASM ενG1722 PREP οργηG3709 N-DSF εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN στοματοςG4750 N-GSN σουG4771 P-GS

Isaiah 58:13 EXB “·You must obey God’s law about [L If you turn your foot away from…; C avoiding Sabbath journeys] the Sabbath and not do what pleases yourselves on that holy day. ·You should [L …and if you…] call the Sabbath a ·joyful day [delight] and honor it as the Lord’s holy day. ·You should [L …and if you…] honor it by not ·doing whatever you please [L going your own way] nor saying ·whatever you please [idle words] on that day.

Holy (H. qodesh; G. [h]agia) is just the adjective, while the day (H. yowm; G. hemera), the seventh day sabbath, is still the possession of the Lord.
That's called "Holy of the Lord", not the "Day of the Lord". The fact that it's a "day" is apparently not relevant enough to be mentioned there.

It may also surprise you to learn that I can read English, so everything written in a language other than that is superfluous.
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
...It may also surprise you to learn that I can read English, so everything written in a language other than that is superfluous.
World doesn't revolve around 'you', and the information which is not relevant to you, is so to others, like myself for one. I may be responding to something you said, but what I post as such is for all.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Your earlier claims and question was...


As shown through the scriptures alone in the post that responds to the quote above from post # 245 linked, it was shown that before the written word of God there was the spoken word of God. Your argument for trying to claim no one kept God's 4th commandment before Exodus is in fact an argument of silence as you have no scripture to say that God's LAWS were not kept before Exodus.

On the other hand you were provided God's Word showing that God's people who were given the spoken word of God, "before" the written Word of God at Mt Sinai did indeed keep God's LAW's.

No one said these laws were exactly the same as the Mosiac laws. Your stating something I have never said therefore your making a strawman argument no one has ever said or believes and if I have never said as such why are you pretending that I have?

The spoken Word of God shows that before the written Word of God Abraham obeyed God's voice (the spoken Word), and kept his charge, his commandments, his statutes, and his laws. The Hebrew Word used here as shown earlier is תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law. *Genesis 26:5

This was provided to show that God's laws were given by the spoken Word of God before the written Word of God and to show that God's people knew about God's laws were before Sinai including the sin offereings or burnt offereing reguired for the forgiveness of sin *Genesis 22:3-13.

A burn't offering is a voluntarty freewill offering of dedication and what you leave out are for the cleansing of sin..

“He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Then he shall kill the bull before the Lord” (Leviticus 1:4–5).

According to God's Word sin is the transgression of God's LAW *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11. Burnt offerings under the old Covenant are for both dedication and for cleansing of sin (atonement). These of course are shadow laws pointint to JESUS as our true sacrifice for sin *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:1-10

As posted earlier your argument is one of silence as there is no scripture that says God's people by the spoken word of God did not know about or follow God's laws. Yet it is the word of God alone (not mine that says God's people before Exodus knew about God's laws and followed them *GENESIS 26:5; GENESIS 22:3-13 if they did not know what sin was there was no reason to have sin offerings.

The knowledge of sin for God's people by the spoken Word of God before Exodus is also shown in GENESIS through Joseph...

Genesis 39:7-9
7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potifer’s wife?

...........

CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). Joseph knew that to commit ADULTERY (7th Commandment; Exodus 20:14) was SIN against God and refused not to SIN.

..........

Finally your claims to Romans 14 only show your reading into the scriptures something that they do not say. Where in Romans 14 does it say that it is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath? It doesn't. Happy to provide a detail look at Romans 14 showing all context if you like? Just let me know.

The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others.

The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

3rdAngel, what is becoming apparent from your responses is that you have not yet escaped the bondage of the law. You sit in a half-way position between the man under law and the man under grace.

Galatians 5:18 is very clear 'But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.' If one lives by the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, then one fulfils the law in love. This is the Way of all who are born-again of God's Holy Spirit.

Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Most persons misunderstand the phrase 3 days and 3 nights, and the phrase in the heart of the earth, which has nothing to do with the exclusive time of burial of Jesus in the tomb. If you want a detailed analysis of that, I can so provide, in another thread, that if you ask me to start, I will. Jesus was crucified , as what you say, 'on a Friday', scripturally, 'preparation', the 6th day of the week, and rose the 'first [day] of the week' (even understanding I know when this was according to scripture), but am not here in this thread to discuss it further. The OP is Colossians 2:16.


Ok, Crosstian, please go ahead and provide your evidence (on another thread) that Jesus was not in the tomb for three days and nights, and that Friday is named as the 'preparation day' for the weekly Sabbath.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

I have addressed the topic of this thread which is: ("COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?) And in doing so have revealed to all that you have not been telling the truth about the weekly Sabbath, which is but a shadow of the future reality, which is the great Sabbath of one thousand years. The Lord's day which is the seventh day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.

Good night mate.

Rubbish! Please post the link where you have addressed anything in the OP. If you can't why are you pretending that you have and if you have not not able to why do you not believe God's Word? I will leave that between you and God.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

I have addressed the topic of this thread which is: ("COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?) And in doing so have revealed to all that you have not been telling the truth about the weekly Sabbath, which is but a shadow of the future reality, which is the great Sabbath of one thousand years. The Lord's day which is the seventh day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.

Good night mate.

Maybe some questions may help the conversation.

All the shadow laws are written in the torah as part of Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind and revealed in the new covenant as shown in Colossians 2 in this OP as well as Ephesians 2; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. All of these shadow laws were given to mankind as a part of God's Salvation for man after the fall when man sinned against God and after God's torah was given to man.

Perhaps these questions will show you why it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a shdow if the scriptures in the OP cannot...

1. How can the Sabbath be a shadow law when it was made before sin when man was in perfect harmony with God ?

2. How can the Sabbath be a shadow when it was a part of the finished work of creation given to man before sin and there was no plan of salvation required?

3. How can the Sabbath be a shadow when there was no shadow laws and no torah when all the shadow laws are written in the torah and the torah was not given or needed because there was no sin?

If you are honest with yourself brother in trying to answer these questions you will see that your claims and understanding of the scriptures are in error here. Be blessed and give thanks to God and receive his Word. Ignroing it does not make it dissappear.

.................

Some bonus questions

4. If the Sabbath was a shadow why did JESUS teach us how to correctly keep the Sabbath *Matthre 12:1-12?

5. Why did JESUS our example and all the apostles and disciples keep the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment even after the death and resurrection of Jesus?

6. Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? - There is none.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed
 
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