Collateral Murder

[Caladan]

I'm tired of reading the ignorant posts about American soldiers. It is quite obvious that the majority of the posters here have no clue about what it is like to be in the military or to fight in a war.

First thing, you are brain washed in basic training to not think, but to act as trained in any given situation. Until you understand that soldiers don't get together and decide what would be the best thing to do in a certain situation.

Very few people understand that war is not about yourself and what you think. You become a machine and do what your told or default to your training when engaging a situation. There is no thinking involved. That is a luxuary you cannot afford.

I disagree. the military is not modeled on an Oliver Stone movie in which the soldiers are programmed to be mindless grunts.

Your life is not paramount in any situation. If you where to decide to take the time to think about something and decide for yourself what you would think would be the best action to take, it could be the wrong decision and cost many soldiers lives. War is hell.

There are different scenarios in war and asymmetrical fighting. soldiers should be expected to demonstrate certain levels of standards and leave the wild west mentality out of their assignments.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I disagree. the military is not modeled on an Oliver Stone movie in which the soldiers are programmed to be mindless grunts.

That is debatable, my opinions are formed from experience fighting on the battlefield over 35 years ago. I was a mindless grunt back then, all the smart folks got out of fighting and avoided the draft.

There are different scenarios in war and asymmetrical fighting. soldiers should be expected to demonstrate certain levels of standards and leave the wild west mentality out of their assignments.

It all boils down to you follow your training and instructions period. You have to live with split second decisions the rest of your life. Someone is always in charge, the responsibilty lies with them and their superiors.

 

[kai]

I have to say we jumped when we were told to jump and as high as we could. Regimental is the key word for us.

and every country has different cultural ways of expressing themselves, and as far as the military is concerned i dare say we all have our skeletons in the cupboard.

 

[Caladan]

That is debatable, my opinions are formed from experience fighting on the battlefield over 35 years ago. I was a mindless grunt back then, all the smart folks got out of fighting and avoided the draft.

The people who served with me were not mindless grunts. as soldiers, we were expected to think and be creative.

It all boils down to you follow your training and instructions period. You have to live with split second decisions the rest of your life. Someone is always in charge, the responsibilty lies with them and their superiors.

When you are engaged in asymmetrical fighting and in conflict zones with completely different settings than a regular war between regular armies in the open field you are confronted with many complicated realities. no modern western army should expect its soldiers to be mindless grunts in these scenarios. you are surrounded by civilian population, you engage in combat in urban areas, and you witness the weight of politics and policies first hand, its impossible to disconnect the combat soldier from all that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have to say we jumped when we were told to jump and as high as we could. Regimental is the key word for us.

and every country has different cultural ways of expressing themselves, and as far as the military is concerned i dare say we all have our skeletons in the cupboard.

I did not watch the video, nor will I. Very few understand what you are saying Kai.

I relive my actions almost every night.

 

[kai]

Caladan i dont think comparing your service with Riks draft some 35 years ago is going to prove any points here. Their worlds apart.

 

[Caladan]

Caladan i dont think comparing your service with Riks draft some 35 years ago is going to prove any points here. Their worlds apart.

The thread is about the current Iraq episode. which is also a world apart from the first gulf war, in which the American forces and a global coalition walked over Saddam's '4th largest military in the world'.
Iraq is asymmetrical fighting and the soldiers are expected to take a great deal of 'police work', one of the problems of the IDF in the Palestinian territories and coalition forces in Iraq is soldiers showing unprofessional mentality after they have been subject to an exhausting routine.

 

[kai]

The thread is about the current Iraq episode. which is also a world apart from the first gulf war, in which the American forces and a global coalition walked over Saddam's '4th largest military in the world'.
Iraq is asymmetrical fighting and the soldiers are expected to take a great deal of 'police work', one of the problems of the IDF in the Palestinian territories and coalition forces in Iraq is soldiers showing unprofessional mentality after they have been subject to an exhausting routine.

are you talking about the phrases and terminoligy used by the US personal in the video or the actions there of.

 

[Amill]

It makes sense that soldiers need to be psychologically distant from their enemies, but do they really train all soldiers to treat war like its a video game? I have a few relatives that have served in Iraq and I can't see any of them treating human beings like the gunner in the video did. Is that really how it needs to be? Do we want soldiers acting like that?

I don't think we should be justifying someone's actions simply because they were "programmed" either, otherwise we could say that the people who worked at concentration camps weren't to blame for any of their actions. And imagine if cops got in a gun fight with a gang, and after the fight was over...while the cops were tending to their own wounded a friend of a gang member went to help that person... Should the cops take that person down as well because he or she "might" be a new threat. Would anyone here be defending that cop's actions?

 

[kai]

It makes sense that soldiers need to be psychologically distant from their enemies, but do they really train all soldiers to treat war like its a video game? I have a few relatives that have served in Iraq and I can't see any of them treating human beings like the gunner in the video did. Is that really how it needs to be? Do we want soldiers acting like that? not all soldiers have such a screen in front of them.

I don't think we should be justifying someone's actions simply because they were "programmed" either, otherwise we could say that the people who worked at concentration camps weren't to blame for any of their actions. And imagine if cops got in a gun fight with a gang, and after the fight was over...while the cops were tending to their own wounded a friend of a gang member went to help that person... Should the cops take that person down as well because he or she "might" be a new threat. Would anyone here be defending that cop's actions?

I dont think any one has justified the action because they were "programmed"

 

[Caladan]

are you talking about the phrases and terminoligy used by the US personal in the video or the actions there of.

The scenario in general.

 

[Kathryn]

The thread is about the current Iraq episode. which is also a world apart from the first gulf war, in which the American forces and a global coalition walked over Saddam's '4th largest military in the world'.
Iraq is asymmetrical fighting and the soldiers are expected to take a great deal of 'police work', one of the problems of the IDF in the Palestinian territories and coalition forces in Iraq is soldiers showing unprofessional mentality after they have been subject to an exhausting routine.

You make an excellent point, Caladan.

My son served in an infantry unit in Iraq for 21 months - and 18 of that 21 months was without a single day of leave or vacation. He was 19 when he got there.

His brigade subsequently had the highest casualty rate in the war. In fact, the casualty rate was so high that several top officers were severely disciplined after the tour of duty.

As a parent, every day of that 21 months was filled with tension. I was part of the notification chain. When a death or severe casualty occurred, and the family gossip chain went wild with fear, I had a group of parents to call in order to disperse accurate information and dispel rumors until the affected family could be notified with the correct information.

It was awful. THEN I talked with my son afterwards, and realized that the fear and tension I felt was miniscule to the level of tension he and his unit lived under for 21 months of their young lives.

The death (and maim) rate was not only very high - but it was so RANDOM that it began to really work on the troops. They could literally never relax - not even while sitting on the toilet (my son had some stories to tell about having to dive for cover with his pants around his ankles). My son worked on patrols and at checkpoints. He said there was not one single moment of any day that you could let your guard down.

He put a video recorder on his helmet one day and recorded a patrol they were making through a village street. You want to talk about eerie - even though I knew that nothing significant happened during that patrol, the tension from both the troops and the civilians was incredible. The fact that the camera turned in the direction my son was looking increased the affect. I could hear 30 minutes of the discussion between the troops. Though it was full of profanity (and actually sort of entertaining), you could sense their fear.

When people are under a great deal of stress, they often turn to inappropriate humor in order to defuse the tension. Emergency room doctors do this (calling burn victims "crispy critters" for example - a common practice) - we all do at some time or other. Another example is the uncontrollable urge to laugh during a funeral, which is another common occurance.

It's a coping mechanism. Anyone who's ever taken a Psych class ought to be able to recognize this.

Throw in exhaustion and boredom (it actually becomes boring patrolling a desert checkpoint at midnight, even though intellectually you know you could be killed at any second), and you have a volatile situation emotionally and mentally.

As for questioning orders, and comparing combat situations to police situations:

Police work and war are two different scenario. The war these soldiers are involved in is chock full of political situations and local elements that they cannot possibly sort through from their position. US soldiers are taught to respect that chain of command and, especially in a tense, crisis situation, they CANNOT question those orders. This isn't brainwashing - it's common sense. You can't have PFC Jones jumping up in the middle of a cross fire shouting, "Hey, wait a minute - We shouldn't even BE here! I refuse to fire one more shot! Let's talk about the political situation!"

However, soldiers are not expected to be mindless drones either. They can question practices, contest decisions, etc - but not on the battlefield or in the middle of an engagement. This endangers the lives of both soldiers and the civilian population.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I'm tired of reading the ignorant posts about American soldiers. It is quite obvious that the majority of the posters here have no clue about what it is like to be in the military or to fight in a war.

First thing, you are brain washed in basic training to not think, but to act as trained in any given situation. Until you understand that soldiers don't get together and decide what would be the best thing to do in a certain situation.

Very few people understand that war is not about yourself and what you think. You become a machine and do what your told or default to your training when engaging a situation. There is no thinking involved. That is a luxuary you cannot afford. Your life is not paramount in any situation. If you where to decide to take the time to think about something and decide for yourself what you would think would be the best action to take, it could be the wrong decision and cost many soldiers lives. War is hell.

I doubt anyone would understand how many soldiers have to live with their actions that they did not agree with or had any control of but still saw the results of their actions that haunted them the rest of their lives.

Just be thankful we do not have the draft any more. That is a luxuary I did not have in my youth.

It is true for a Army to work like a well oiled machine everyone must do what they are told. It is the public officials that are responsible and who should be held responsible for unjust Wars.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm tired of reading the ignorant posts about American soldiers. It is quite obvious that the majority of the posters here have no clue about what it is like to be in the military or to fight in a war.

First thing, you are brain washed in basic training to not think, but to act as trained in any given situation. Until you understand that soldiers don't get together and decide what would be the best thing to do in a certain situation.

Very few people understand that war is not about yourself and what you think. You become a machine and do what your told or default to your training when engaging a situation. There is no thinking involved. That is a luxuary you cannot afford. Your life is not paramount in any situation. If you where to decide to take the time to think about something and decide for yourself what you would think would be the best action to take, it could be the wrong decision and cost many soldiers lives. War is hell.

I doubt anyone would understand how many soldiers have to live with their actions that they did not agree with or had any control of but still saw the results of their actions that haunted them the rest of their lives.

Just be thankful we do not have the draft any more. That is a luxuary I did not have in my youth.

You could say the same thing about British soldiers occupying the American colonies. So they shot a bunch of colonists at the Boston massacre. Oh well, war is hell after all.

What you and Kathryn aren't getting is that this is not about the personal merits of individual soldiers. This is about policy, leadership, and justice. Crossing the street is dangerous, nevertheless, if someone hits me accidentally with their car, guess what happens? There's a police investigation, they might even go to jail or get fined. That's justice. As for policy, the questions arise: Should we be occupying Iraq right now and creating these situations? Should the rules of engagement for occupying forces in a dense urban environment allow you to shoot unarmed enemies assisting unarmed wounded?

The other point to consider is that it's precisely because videos like this one get leaked and people make a big deal out of it, that the military is under pressure to be careful and avoid civilian casualties. That's a good thing. They should be under pressure.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I did not watch the video, nor will I. Very few understand what you are saying Kai.

I relive my actions almost every night.

It's none of my business of course, and I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but what were those actions that you relive almost every night? Please forgive me but I can't help asking, I'm sure you don't want to talk about it but I'm dying to know.

 

[McBell]

It's none of my business of course, and I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but what were those actions that you relive almost every night? Please forgive me but I can't help asking, I'm sure you don't want to talk about it but I'm dying to know.

IF he is willing to talk about his experiences I would HIGHLY recommend a new thread.

Mainly because if his experiences are anything like my fathers (a tunnel rat) or the support group members my father was a part of, it will most definitely need its own thread.

 

[Alceste]

I didn't expect everyone to respond - so you're off the hook on that one. However, it did seem odd to me that there was absolutely NO response. Considering that the perspective given was one so similar to the perspective of the soldiers in the video, I was just surprised that there wasn't even an acknowledgment of that perspective - on a debate forum.

Like I said, I wasn't offended - but I did wonder why there was such a deafening silence.

Maybe because you already posted it and those who had a comment to share have already done so.

 

[Alceste]

You see that's your point of view Spinks,not everyone's, Some people think its right to be in Iraq and Afghanistan and a soldier does his duty.

Some gangstas slinging heroine on street corners think it's right to cap the ****** on the next block to expand into their territory, so they do their duty, just like soldiers. The question is, is it right or wrong?

Now the cold war is over we don't have and i think never will have clear cut enemies such as Nazis,or Soviets, and in the rare instance we do have it wont be for long. Our military will be increasingly asked to carry out peacekeeping and security and i hope rapid reaction to genocidal maniacs all over the world.

Possibly - whether or not things play that way is up to us. Our governments will always be teetering on the brink of wars for geopolitical advantage, exactly like drug dealing gangsters. It's a side effect of power. The only thing that prevents them from tipping over is whether or not we are willing to send our children to do their killing for them. They are far too cowardly to fight their battles themselves.

And personally if i didnt join up i am sure i would be dead or in Jail.

Frankly, I'd rather see you in jail than killing Afghan or Iraqi civilians to ensure Tony Blair his legacy in the history books. I hope you understand it's not personal - my opinions are in the interest of public security, including the security of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The other point to consider is that it's precisely because videos like this one get leaked and people make a big deal out of it, that the military is under pressure to be careful and avoid civilian casualties. That's a good thing. They should be under pressure.

Well now that we know how you feel about soldiers, let me ask you a question:

How do you feel about law enforcement officers?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well now that we know how you feel about soldiers, let me ask you a question:

How do you feel about law enforcement officers?

No, let's step back a moment. How do you think I feel about soldiers? I suspect you've misunderstood me.