Collateral Murder

[Reverend Rick]

No, let's step back a moment. How do you think I feel about soldiers? I suspect you've misunderstood me.

I believe you have unrealistic expectations for the conduct of soldiers in the middle of a war. They are our sons and daughters, our husbands and wives, perhaps your uncle or cousin. They are away from home, scared to death, that's right! scared out of their wits but have the courage to confront those fears and perform with a high degree of excellence.

The military should never have to perform the task of law enforcement or peace keepers. That is not what they are trained to do. Our military should be a mean lean fighting machine that when unleashed should be able to perform their duties with severe prejudice.

Yes it is time for the troops to come home, not put any additional pressure on them. :no:

 

[Alceste]

Well now that we know how you feel about soldiers, let me ask you a question:

How do you feel about law enforcement officers?

 

[kai]

Some gangstas slinging heroine on street corners think it's right to cap the ****** on the next block to expand into their territory, so they do their duty, just like soldiers. The question is, is it right or wrong? soldiers are paid by their governments do their job and you know it. gangstas are not, and i feel slightly insulted to have my "duty" which is to my country compared to criminals whose "duty" is to crime



Possibly - whether or not things play that way is up to us. Our governments will always be teetering on the brink of wars for geopolitical advantage, exactly like drug dealing gangsters. It's a side effect of power. The only thing that prevents them from tipping over is whether or not we are willing to send our children to do their killing for them. They are far too cowardly to fight their battles themselves. I would rather fight along side soldiers than politicians thanks they do their job i do mine.



Frankly, I'd rather see you in jail than killing Afghan or Iraqi civilians to ensure Tony Blair his legacy in the history books. I hope you understand it's not personal - my opinions are in the interest of public security, including the security of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

my interests were also in the security of the public but actually there and not on my PC ( no offence intended but i am OK with my service) your entitled to disagree. and you seem to be making a very large assumption that i have killed Afghan and Iraqi civilians?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I believe you have unrealistic expectations for the conduct of soldiers in the middle of a war. They are our sons and daughters, our husbands and wives, perhaps your uncle or cousin. They are away from home, scared to death, that's right! scared out of their wits but have the courage to confront those fears and perform with a high degree of excellence.

The military should never have to perform the task of law enforcement or peace keepers. That is not what they are trained to do. Our military should be a mean lean fighting machine that when unleashed should be able to perform their duties with severe prejudice.

Yes it is time for the troops to come home, not put any additional pressure on them. :no:

[emphasis added] I totally agree with the whole post. As for the underlined part, I also agree (unless they have been trained adequately for that purpose, we have some obligation for security and the civilian population wants soldiers there).

By occupying hostile civilian populations or trying to intercede in civil wars that do not involve us, we are setting our soldiers up to fail and setting the civilians up to be bullied and endangered.

Like I was trying to say earlier, foreign occupation of hostile civilian populations is an evil institution, just like monarchy and slavery. The troops in His Majesty's army could have been highly excellent individuals asked to do a very difficult job, it doesn't matter, the British Empire was still a basically evil system because it sets up good people for failure and sadistic people for success. George Orwell was a good man, nevertheless he admitted how his role as a British officer in India and the tension between himself and the locals made him want nothing more than to bury his bayonet in an Indian man's stomach. I don't say George Orwell was an evil man, I conclude, as Orwell did, that the institution of Empire brings out the evil in otherwise good people. Throughout history, there have been many benevolent and excellent kings and slave-owners, kings are often given the impossible task of saving their country, they are under threat of assassination, etc. It's not about the personal qualities of kings that I am worried about, it's the institution of monarchy and the institution of Empire and military occupation.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Alceste is that really fair to law enforcement officers? A given cop or a certain local police force may be terrible, but OTOH many are exemplary and we couldn't get along without any police, could we?

 

[kai]

[emphasis added] I totally agree with the whole post. As for the underlined part, I also agree (unless they have been trained adequately for that purpose, we have some obligation for security and the civilian population wants soldiers there). well we have an obligation for security dont we?

By occupying hostile civilian populations or trying to intercede in civil wars that do not involve us, we are setting our soldiers up to fail and setting the civilians up to be bullied and endangered. we allowed the envireonment for sectarian violence i wouldnt say it was a (civil war) by ousting Saddams regime so we have an obligation to provide security until they can provide it themselves.

Like I was trying to say earlier, foreign occupation of hostile civilian populations is an evil institution, just like monarchy and slavery. The troops in His Majesty's army could have been highly excellent individuals asked to do a very difficult job, it doesn't matter, the British Empire was still a basically evil system because it sets up good people for failure and sadistic people for success. George Orwell was a good man, nevertheless he admitted how his role as a British officer in India and the tension between himself and the locals made him want nothing more than to bury his bayonet in an Indian man's stomach. I don't say George Orwell was an evil man, I conclude, as Orwell did, that the institution of Empire brings out the evil in otherwise good people. Throughout history, there have been many benevolent and excellent kings and slave-owners, kings are often given the impossible task of saving their country, they are under threat of assassination, etc. It's not about the personal qualities of kings that I am worried about, it's the institution of monarchy and the institution of Empire and military occupation.I][

Whats empire got to do with it? and dont forget chaos brings out the evil in people too we caused the choas by creating a law and order vacuum so it was our responsibility to put that right. And i would like to say its not the service men and women who created that vacuum its the politicians who did not consider well enough what the heck we were going to do once we ousted the Baath party that controlled everything that was simmering in Iraq with a jackboot.

 

[Alceste]

Originally Posted by Alceste
Some gangstas slinging heroine on street corners think it's right to cap the ****** on the next block to expand into their territory, so they do their duty, just like soldiers. The question is, is it right or wrong?

soldiers are paid by their governments do their job and you know it. gangstas are not, and i feel slightly insulted to have my "duty" which is to my country compared to criminals whose "duty" is to crime

To me it makes no difference whether the kingpin is a prime minister or a thug. When they wage war, whether it is on a street corner or in another country, it is wrong to me. Very simple. Being important or powerful does not confer exemption from my ethical standards. If killing people in order to control (or "liberate", if you prefer) a street corner is wrong, killing to control another country is wrong.

Possibly - whether or not things play that way is up to us. Our governments will always be teetering on the brink of wars for geopolitical advantage, exactly like drug dealing gangsters. It's a side effect of power. The only thing that prevents them from tipping over is whether or not we are willing to send our children to do their killing for them. They are far too cowardly to fight their battles themselves.

I would rather fight along side soldiers than politicians thanks they do their job i do mine.

"Their job" is to send you and your fellow soldiers into harm's way in order to advance their own wealth and status. You and your fellow soldiers get nothing out of it, as far as I can see. You are risking your lives for Tony Blair's idea of personal posterity.

Frankly, I'd rather see you in jail than killing Afghan or Iraqi civilians to ensure Tony Blair his legacy in the history books. I hope you understand it's not personal - my opinions are in the interest of public security, including the security of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

my interests were also in the security of the public but actually there and not on my PC ( no offence intended but i am OK with my service) your entitled to disagree. and you seem to be making a very large assumption that i have killed Afghan and Iraqi civilians?

I'm aware that you have materially contributed to an ill-conceived and pointless war that has claimed half a million lives and thrown two previously stable sovereign countries into complete chaos. Whether you personally shot anybody is of no consequence. The war itself is my enemy, not you.

Consider this: if more of the "PC warriors" like myself (and the vast majority of UK citizens) that you hold such contempt for had been listened to in the run-up to war, you would not have had to materially contribute to this dismal failure of an invasion. Whether you can see it or not, we fight against wars out of love for you and your fellow soldiers. We value your life more than your government does.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste is that really fair to law enforcement officers? A given cop or a certain local police force may be terrible, but OTOH many are exemplary and we couldn't get along without any police, could we?

S'a joke. Personally, I could get along fine without police. In fact, I intend to move to a community without police. But it was a joke. I know a few cops who are good people.

 

[kai]

To me it makes no difference whether the kingpin is a prime minister or a thug. When they wage war, whether it is on a street corner or in another country, it is wrong to me. Very simple. Being important or powerful does not confer exemption from my ethical standards. If killing people in order to control (or "liberate", if you prefer) a street corner is wrong, killing to control another country is wrong.


well it does to me but there you go it takes all kinds
"Their job" is to send you and your fellow soldiers into harm's way in order to advance their own wealth and status. You and your fellow soldiers get nothing out of it, as far as I can see. You are risking your lives for Tony Blair's idea of personal posterity.


Again thats yourpoint of view and your entitled to it.
I'm aware that you have materially contributed to an ill-conceived and pointless war that has claimed half a million lives and thrown two previously stable sovereign countries into complete chaos. Whether you personally shot anybody is of no consequence. The war itself is my enemy, not you.

Then why bring it up ? if its of no consequence why bring it up? and which war? or do you mean war in general?

Consider this: if more of the "PC warriors" like myself (and the vast majority of UK citizens) that you hold such contempt for had been listened to in the run-up to war, you would not have had to materially contribute to this dismal failure of an invasion.What? agin this is your point of view from my point of view the Iraq invasion was a military success its the planning for security for law and order that has been dismal but like i said thats your opinion, i couldnt comment on " the vast majority of Uk citizens" like you , by the way why can you?

Whether you can see it or not, we fight against wars out of love for you and your fellow soldiers. We value your life more than your government does.

Oh pleeease!! look i was a professional soldier,i enlisted, i soldiered, i lived and breathed soldiering, like the vast majority of our soldiers.

 

[Aquitaine]

We value your life more than your government does.

This is a good point here, 'cause I believe the majority of the anti-war crowd speak up and hold their veiws not as some sort of disrespect on the troops, but because they do not want the nation's soldiers to be put into harms way for a totally pointless, illegal invasion with no afterplan and one which was waged on pure lies. Or in the case of Afghanistan, a totally over-the-top response to terror groups in the area, and an attempt to try and bring the many tribal factors of Afghanistan under one centralized (and corrupt) government. Whilst being propped up by countries with a total oppoiste way of life and customs.

It's not some sort of spitting on the soldiers, it's the total opposite - it's respect for the soldiers, enough respect not to want them to be sent to their deaths for the Plutocrats pulling the strings.

 

[kai]

I dont think the majority of anti-war crowd care less about soldiers its political they are expressing political views. if you care about soldiers donate to a veterans charity, and by all means express anti-war views but don't hoist soldiers onto the bandwagon.

If you don't agree with what were doing in Afghanistan then fine say so, use your vote or whatever but don't give me the "we only say it because love you" bit.

I don't buy it.

 

[kai]

I dont think the majority of anti-war crowd care less about soldiers its political they are expressing political views. if you care about soldiers donate to a veterans charity, and by all means express anti-war views but don't hoist soldiers onto the bandwagon.

If you don't agree with what were doing in Afghanistan then fine say so, use your vote or whatever but don't give me the "we only say it because love you" bit.

I don't buy it.

if you really want to help? lobby the government to give the troops the tools to do the job that would make us happy.

 

[Aquitaine]

if you really want to help? lobby the government to give the troops the tools to do the job that would make us happy.

HAHAHAHA! I'm sorry but I don't have the billions of pounds nor a corporate monopoly to be able to successfully lobby the Government. Besides, the MoD would much rather spend 2.3 billion on a new Whitehall office rather than on the troops.

 

[kai]

HAHAHAHA! I'm sorry but I don't have the billions of pounds nor a corporate monopoly to be able to successfully lobby the Government. Besides, the MoD would much rather spend 2.3 billion on a new Whitehall office rather than on the troops.

an e-mail would do

 

[sandandfoam]

I dont think the majority of anti-war crowd care less about soldiers its political they are expressing political views.

I'm definitely one of the anti war crowd

It's true that I care no more about soldiers than anyone else.
My views are very political, no doubt about it.

However I think it is worth pointing out that my hatred for war in no way extends to the troops. Some of a 'patriotic' bent confuse anti war with anti soldier and it is not at all the same.

 

[Aquitaine]

I dont think the majority of anti-war crowd care less about soldiers its political they are expressing political views. if you care about soldiers donate to a veterans charity, and by all means express anti-war views but don't hoist soldiers onto the bandwagon.

Fair enough, I can't speak for the majority of the anti-war crowd, but I'd like to think the whole reason for the movement isn't just to spit on our troops.

Fine, I'll remove the soldiers from the equation and focus more on the political aspects of the Iraq war, which still leaves me with the lies, illegal invasion, no afterplan, DU ammunition etc etc.

If you don't agree with what were doing in Afghanistan then fine say so, use your vote or whatever but don't give me the "we only say it because love you" bit.

I don't buy it.

Use my vote? lulwut? This isn't some Democracy where every Citizen get's to vote on every issue - especially when it comes to wars. I guess I'll just stick to my views, or wait until we finally run out of money to wage these pointless things, if we haven't already.

 

[Aquitaine]

an e-mail would do

Well in the past I have already sent e-mails to my own MP and I get nothing in return, I will certainly try though. I'll see if I can send one to number 10 or the MoD. Let's see if they decide to pull the entire operation just on my e-mail.

 

[kai]

I'm definitely one of the anti war crowd

It's true that I care no more about soldiers than anyone else.
My views are very political, no doubt about it.

However I think it is worth pointing out that my hatred for war in no way extends to the troops. Some of a 'patriotic' bent confuse anti war with anti soldier and it is not at all the same.

Yes i know that stephen and having read you posts for quite some time now i kno you to be genuine but i do think there are all shapes and sizes and political hues that jump on the bandwagon.

 

[sandandfoam]

if you really want to help? lobby the government to give the troops the tools to do the job that would make us happy.

I think the fact that the Govt. will send under equipped troops into combat says it all.

I heard a story about some RIR troops bumping into some paras in Afghanistan. Apparently it was like they were from a different army. It's a big cod.

 

[kai]

Fair enough, I can't speak for the majority of the anti-war crowd, but I'd like to think the whole reason for the movement isn't just to spit on our troops.

Fine, I'll remove the soldiers from the equation and focus more on the political aspects of the Iraq war, which still leaves me with the lies, illegal invasion, no afterplan, DU ammunition etc etc.



Use my vote? lulwut? This isn't some Democracy where every Citizen get's to vote on every issue - especially when it comes to wars. I guess I'll just stick to my views, or wait until we finally run out of money to wage these pointless things, if we haven't already.

whatever, like i said your entitled to you opinion in fact i would fight for your entitlement to do so