come, let us reason together...

[idea]

why did you decide to hold the beliefs that you do?

neuroscience suggests that:
"human reason is less a tool for figuring out what to do, and more a tool for justifying what we've already decided to do...
http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0307377903


As far as this applies to religious apologetics, perhaps the best missionary tools are not rational debate? that we need to focus on the emotion & intuition aspects of decision making - because most people, most of the time, make decisions based on their emotions/intuition (and then use logic to justify their decision).

On the surface, many shy away from emotional appeals because they at first sound illogical, but I think emotions are based on real things for the most part (we get angry for a real reason, we get happy for a real reason etc. etc.) I think much of our gut feelings may come from the light of Christ / from the Holy Spirit too. Yes, it's good to keep your emotions in check, and not to be overly emotional - but it is also bad to be afraid of your emotions, or to ignore them, hide from them...

In any event, the rationalizations/justifications/apologetic type arguments rarely persuade anyone to change their mind, because perhaps decision making on either side really is based on something more than rationalizations... it seems to be based on what we emotionally/intuitively feel is right - id/ego/superego - the angel and devil on your shoulders, and which you are willing to listen to...

I believe we are all led by the same being, and each have the same spiritual light burning within ourselves. Religious conversion is not something that happens through logical debate, but is a process acknowledging/recognizing/following the Spiritual light which is within us.

"(Bible Dictionary | C Conscience:Entry)
we are born with a natural capacity to distinguish between right and wrong, due to the light of Christ that is given to every person, D&C 84:44–53. We have a faculty by means of which we can pass judgment on our own conduct, either approving or condemning it, so anticipating the divine judgment on it. This faculty is called conscience. The possession of it at once makes us responsible beings. Like other faculties it needs to be trained, and may be deadened through misuse. "

the question for this thread:

1. How do you connect with your conscience? (meditation, prayer, scripture study, nature hikes, gathering with loved ones, service and charity work). What separates you from your conscience, and how do you fix this? (guilt = separation from conscience, fix this through repentance, and trying to live guilt free by choosing actions that are aligned with our conscience... vs. trying to live guilt free by ignoring/trampling our own conscience)

2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?

 

[Breathe]

1. How do you connect with your conscience? (meditation, prayer, scripture study, nature hikes, gathering with loved ones, service and charity work).

All of those, really. Usually I do meditation and chanting as my main forms. I don't like the local nature enough to go out in it for spiritual fulfilment frequently. Usually because there's dog poop everywhere. If I lived nearer the sea, I would love it, but nooo, I'm in the centre of England, about 90 miles from the nearest beach.

What separates you from your conscience, and how do you fix this? (guilt = separation from conscience, fix this through repentance, and trying to live guilt free by choosing actions that are aligned with our conscience... vs. trying to live guilt free by ignoring/trampling our own conscience)

I'm not really sure if I understand this wholly, but if I'm thinking right: I won't do an act that makes me uneasy. If something makes me feel guilty, I try to find a way to repair what damage has been done.

2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?

Being there, listening to them without judgement, and, if asked, giving my input into what I would do in that situation, but never pressuring them into anything or telling them what they should do unless specifically asked "What should I do?" or "What do you think I should do?".

 

[idea]

I'm not really sure if I understand this wholly, but if I'm thinking right: I won't do an act that makes me uneasy. If something makes me feel guilty, I try to find a way to repair what damage has been done.

one of my teachers once told me "the right thing to do is the hard thing to do" - I think the dictates of our conscience point us in the direction of the hard path - with good long term rewards, vs, following the dictates of our ego which lead us in short-lived pleasures... the ongoing battle within all imperfect people between doing what we feel is right, vs. caving into doing what is easy...

the same battle within all of us I think, and two ways to get rid of the guilt when we mess up (correct me if this is wrong)
1. honestly admit our faults and fix them (repent)
2. refuse to admit faults, refuse to listen to the inner voice of our conscience, eventually not feeling guilty about anything, eventually not feeling anything from our conscience at all...

Being there, listening to them without judgement, and, if asked, giving my input into what I would do in that situation, but never pressuring them into anything or telling them what they should do unless specifically asked "What should I do?" or "What do you think I should do?".

what if someone needs to be told the "hard truth" though?

 

[Breathe]

one of my teachers once told me "the right thing to do is the hard thing to do" - I think the dictates of our conscience point us in the direction of the hard path - with good long term rewards, vs, following the dictates of our ego which lead us in short-lived pleasures... the ongoing battle within all imperfect people between doing what we feel is right, vs. caving into doing what is easy...

Ah, I understand. Thank you for adding to this.
I'm pretty much of a similar opinion.

what if someone needs to be told the "hard truth" though?

Then it's usually a different story.
I'll usually hint at it by saying "If I were in your situation", or "Do you want my opinion?". Only a small number of times, really, do I say something like:

"Dude, seriously: you need help getting off the drugs. It's not doing any good for you. I'm concerned about your well-being." and so on.

 

[idea]

Then it's usually a different story.
I'll usually hint at it by saying "If I were in your situation", or "Do you want my opinion?". Only a small number of times, really, do I say something like:

"Dude, seriously: you need help getting off the drugs. It's not doing any good for you. I'm concerned about your well-being." and so on.

so this neuroscientist said that people often don't make decisions (like should I do drugs) based on rational reasons, but instead on emotion/intuition - and that logic is used after the choice to rationalize/justify whatever they want to do... so if the direct logical approach of "don't do drugs because they will kill you" to which they will say something like "I'm going to die anyways, why not do something fun in the meanwhile?" etc. etc. so instead of an appeal to reason/logic, there has to be some way to appeal to their conscience instead...

what is the best way of appealing to someone's conscience? I guess an appeal to love, loyalty, ... don't do drugs because your mother loves you, and it would make her sad - might hold more sway than other logical reasons...

What do you think about decisions which are made based on love/loyalty vs. logic? Such as someone going to the same church their parents went to, or going to the political rally that their friends go to etc. etc.?

Do you think this neuroscientist is right when he says most decisions are not made based on logical/rational reasoning?

 

[Breathe]

What do you think about decisions which are made based on love/loyalty vs. logic? Such as someone going to the same church their parents went to, or going to the political rally that their friends go to etc. etc.?

Humans are social animals, and we are influenced by our family, friends, and society, so it's to be expected, for better or for worse.

Do you think this neuroscientist is right when he says most decisions are not made based on logical/rational reasoning?

I think it makes sense: even the most logical and rational of people will still occasionally decide not to do things, or to do things, without basing them on logic or rationality (and even the most irrational and illogical of people can still act with rationality).

Is it right, though? I don't know; I'm not a neuroscientist.

 

[Orias]

why did you decide to hold the beliefs that you do?

So I can justify my existence.

1. How do you connect with your conscience? (meditation, prayer, scripture study, nature hikes, gathering with loved ones, service and charity work).

This sounds like you are trying to connect with others consciences, since personally I think the best way to go about getting to know or connect with your own conscience is by not letting other people "corrupt" and influence it (in any undesirable way of course).

What separates you from your conscience, and how do you fix this?

Most of the time, other people separate me from myself.

But I guess, what I am now and what I will be is all a matter of...me.

2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?

It can be tough, because most of the time people think I am just accusing them or trying to brainwash them or something.

The first time I was told to "listen to my own voice", all I heard was the person who told me that in my head.

Does this make the voice I hear mine or his?

 

[idea]

This sounds like you are trying to connect with others consciences, since personally I think the best way to go about getting to know or connect with your own conscience is by not letting other people "corrupt" and influence it (in any undesirable way of course).

I think when you can honestly see yourself, you can also see others more clearly, because we all experience the same thing. we all get hungry, we all experience love / jealousy / anger / friendship /guilt / pride /happy / sad - no one's emotions are unique... so seeing others is seeing yourself, and visa versa...


"who we are is who we are with others" - if we are angry, we are angry at others, or if we are kind, we are kind to others, if we are shy isolationists, we are shy around others... seems we are all in this together, defining one another whether we like it or not...

Most of the time, other people separate me from myself.

those who are out of tune with their conscience try to separate us from our conscience... when we are having a bad day and are out of tune, we do the same thing - we can have more empathy for others when we understand the same things within our self I think...

But I guess, what I am now and what I will be is all a matter of...me.

It can be tough, because most of the time people think I am just accusing them or trying to brainwash them or something.

The first time I was told to "listen to my own voice", all I heard was the person who told me that in my head.

Does this make the voice I hear mine or his?

being self-aware is interesting... what part of our self steps out to look back and see who we are?

I don't think all the voices in our minds are ours... perhaps there really is an angel on one shoulder, and a devil on the other...

 

[Revoltingest]

I hold the beliefs I do because I see no good reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Orias]

I think when you can honestly see yourself, you can also see others more clearly, because we all experience the same thing. we all get hungry, we all experience love / jealousy / anger / friendship /guilt / pride /happy / sad - no one's emotions are unique... so seeing others is seeing yourself, and visa versa...

I agree.

"who we are is who we are with others" - if we are angry, we are angry at others, or if we are kind, we are kind to others...

It can also be, who I am with my girlfriend, is different than who I am with my cousin.

Though I'm not, I am, while still being myself.

those who are out of tune with their conscience try to separate us from our conscience... when we are having a bad day and are out of tune, we do the same thing - we can have more empathy for others when we understand the same things within our self I think...

I agree.

being self-aware is interesting... what part of our self steps out to look back and see who we are?

The one that will remain.

I don't think all the voices in our minds are ours... perhaps there really is an angel on one shoulder, and a devil on the other...

Reasonable, I would be more inclined to think on both shoulders sits Deagle(s) (demon/angle).

Heh, with that being said a deagle is like a Desert Eagle, packs a lot of kick and will put a hole the size of a watermelon in you.

 

[idea]

I hold the beliefs I do because I see no good reason to believe otherwise.

do we believe what we see? or do we see what we believe... which comes first, the seeing, or the believing?

Dr. Haidt thinks everyone holds the beliefs they do, not through reason, but through emotion/intuition - that we use reason to rationalize what we emotionally want.

This is why people in sales so often make emotional appeals - commercials are more about connecting a product with good emotions, then with logical reasoning - because most of the time we make decisions based on what we emotionally want.

 

[idea]

It can also be, who I am with my girlfriend, is different than who I am with my cousin.

Though I'm not, I am, while still being myself.

interesting to see the different sides of ourselves showing through around different people...

 

[Twilight Hue]

Emotion has it place yet IMO it's not advised to substitute emotion for intellect when it comes to discernment. This helps avoid volitional errors when faced with choices whenever emotion and intellect "conflict".

 

[idea]

Emotion has it place yet IMO it's not advised to substitute emotion for intellect when it comes to discernment. This helps avoid volitional errors when faced with choices whenever emotion and intellect "conflict".

Haidt uses the term "emotion" but I think there is a better word for it than that - character/personality/spirit/conscience - that our inner being / inner core is what really dictates most of our choices.

I agree that emotions can sometimes be misleading - emotions do not always come from our inner core, although some of them do...

 

[Sunstone]

There was a study done in California some years ago on the role of emotion in decision making. The researchers found a small number of people who had suffered brain injuries that prevented them from feeling emotions. They then interviewed and observed the people.

The study found that the people had extreme difficulty prioritizing actions. For instance, one of them spent upwards of an hour trying to decide between calling his broker during a downturn in the stock market and going to lunch.

The researchers hypothesized that emotions play a significant to decisive role in allowing us to choose between options.

 

[Orias]

I think I understand this.

Because one can emotionally chose to be more "intelligent", right?

 

[Orias]

interesting to see the different sides of ourselves showing through around different people...

Though at the same time, what is shown through is always just, who the person is and what they consist of.

 

[Neil P]

Usually beliefs begin as tradition, but if you question and seek the answers, you will fine them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The study is interesting but a bit vague. When brain injury is involved I would suspect more than emotional capacity would be affected. Wonder what was chosen? Broker or lunch?

 

[A Troubled Man]

we need to focus on the emotion & intuition aspects of decision making - because most people, most of the time, make decisions based on their emotions/intuition.

And yet, we find that to be complete guesswork that is more often wrong than anything else.

Yes, it's good to keep your emotions in check, and not to be overly emotional - but it is also bad to be afraid of your emotions, or to ignore them, hide from them...

And, it is most often detrimental and pointless to use our emotions to drive our decision making process.

In any event, the rationalizations/justifications/apologetic type arguments rarely persuade anyone to change their mind, because perhaps decision making on either side really is based on something more than rationalizations... it seems to be based on what we emotionally/intuitively feel is right - id/ego/superego - the angel and devil on your shoulders, and which you are willing to listen to...

I believe we are all led by the same being, and each have the same spiritual light burning within ourselves.

That would just be your belief, not observed or recognized in nature in any way, shape or form. Notice that if you're using your emotions/intuition to come to those conclusions, you're reasoning has has not been shown to be valid or credible.

1. How do you connect with your conscience?

Thinking works pretty well.

What separates you from your conscience

Alcohol.

2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?

I would encourage people to think rather than jump to erroneous and false conclusions based on their emotions/intuitions.