Come on, Creationists!

[Fallen Prophet]

Read closer, please. That's not a pivot. I literally said that abolition is a principal that Christians adopted once it was clear that abolition was the way that society was going. I did not say that abolition is a Christian principle. In fact I explicitly said that abolition was not a Christian principle.

You definitely pivoted.

My point - the one we have been discussing - was about Christian principles - not "Christians".

What I said in Post # 360 was,

"I never made any claim about Christians or Christianity as a whole - I said "It was the Christian principles found in the West that led to the end of slavery in the West."

I said this because you keep making claims about "Christians".

You then replied to what I said above in Post #363 with,

"I don't believe you. I don't believe that Christian principles are anti-slavery. I believe that Christians adopted, or I should say co-opted abolition after it was clear that was the way to keep parishioners. Same thing with suffrage. And with marriage equality. And to some extent with civil rights."

Do you not see where you pivoted AGAIN?

You keep trying to make this a conversation about "Christians" - your attempt at erecting a strawman - because my original point was about "Christian principles" - not "Christians".

And in response to my original claim you said - simply - "No, you're wrong because I don't agree with you. And now here is a strawman!"

Such a compelling argument!

And then you pivoted - again - by trying to make my original point appear to be about "Christians" rather than "Christian principles" - by making your claim about them co-opting abolition or some nonsense - which had nothing to do with my original point of "Christian principles" heavily influencing the Founding Fathers, the Constitution and our original system of government.

You keep talking about "Christians" - while I have only been talking about "Christian principles" - that is where you have been pivoting.

It's a pivot.

I answered this in my last post. Asking me again will not yield a different answer.

I hoped that you had learned not to just assume anyone's position on a given issue.

If you cannot point to where the Lord Jesus Christ or His Apostles taught His followers to buy/sell or otherwise trade in slaves - you have no argument.

Doesn't matter. Christianity fails by supporting neither.

Well - "Christianity" is not a political system. It has no authority to dictate who can and cannot vote in any election in any country.

However - the men that voted to allow both women and freed slaves to vote in the United States were predominantly Christian.

And they could do so because their system of government had been founded on "Christian principles".

That is a fact.

Cool story bro.

Yeah - I had a feeling you wouldn't like me sharing actual historical facts - because then our discussion would be viewed in its proper context.

And once we start doing that - you're whole argument falls apart.

So - it's no wonder you wouldn't like that.

Another moral failing of Christianity.

No - marriage is an institution or ordinance that establishes a contract between a man and a woman.

That is what it is.

Anything else is something else.

Don't care about your politics.

No - you don't care for me to establish history in its proper context.

As I said - that is very problematic for you.

It was the predominantly Christian Republican Party that fought to end slavery in the West, give the vote to both women and freed slaves, and oppose the slave-owning/Jim Crowe law establishing/anti-suffrage for women and freed slaves Democrats.

And these changes could occur because the system of government was founded on "Christian principles".

You can find someone else to talk about that to.

You mean someone who actually knows history and is therefore equipped to have this conversation?

 

[ppp]

You definitely pivoted.

Read closer, please. That's not a pivot. I literally said that abolition is a principal that Christians adopted once it was clear that abolition was the way that society was going. I did not say that abolition is a Christian principle. In fact I explicitly said that abolition was not a Christian principle.

The prove it. Show me the text where I literally said that abolition is a Christian principle.
I may read the rest of your post...later.

 

[Audie]

The prove it. .....may read the rest of your post...later.

A sound argument wouldn't have needed that many words.

 

[ppp]

A sound argument wouldn't have needed that many words.

Nope.
It is an all too common refrain. I was talking to someone about the fact that the Baha'i on this forum do not general;y make logical arguments; either formal or informal. They testify and the drop extensive quotes, but they rarely, if ever, build a logical argument from common premises. Perhaps the vast quantity of words is supposed to obscure the lack of quality

 

[Audie]

Nope.
It is an all too common refrain. I was talking to someone about the fact that the Baha'i on this forum do not general;y make logical arguments; either formal or informal. They testify and the drop extensive quotes, but they rarely, if ever, build a logical argument from common premises. Perhaps the vast quantity of words is supposed to obscure the lack of quality

Aside from all that the topic itself appears
to be the role of "christian principles" in slavery.


The apparent claim of exclusive credit for abolition is
what i objected to, in view of bible passages
favourable to slavery much in evidence
as justification, and, of course, there were
and are other social conscious movements.

 

[ppp]

Aside from all that the topic itself appears
to be the role of "christian principles" in slavery.


The apparent claim of exclusive credit for abolition is
what i objected to, in view of bible passages
favourable to slavery much in evidence
as justification, and, of course, there were
and are other social conscious movements.

And one doesn't get to ignore the nearly 1900 years if Christians making an institution and economy of the practice

 

[Audie]

And one doesn't get to ignore the nearly 1900 years if Christians making an institution and economy of the practice

Not ifn theres any mentioners around

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I'm not sure why that should matter.

Really?

You don't think God never condoning or advocating slavery outside of ancient Israel by means of the Law of Moses is relevant to a discussion about whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles condoned or advocated for slavery?

Do you believe that God represents an objective and absolute moral standard or not?

Yes - and thank goodness He does not require mortals to live up to those standards in order to receive redemption, salvation and eventual exaltation.

Enlightenment values directly flouted Christian values. Pray forgive the Wikipedia quoting
"The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on the value of human happiness, the pursuit of knowledge obtained by means of reason and the evidence of the senses, and ideals such as liberty, progress, toleration, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state."

I don't see how any of these ideas "flout" "Christian values".

You don't believe it rather odd that the Enlightenment took place in predominantly Christian countries?

The enlightenment also represented the movement from metaphysics to epistemology.

You would need both to practice "Christian principles".

As well as a anti-supernatural leaning.

What is "supernatural"?

The first amendment of the Constitution is directly in conflict with the first amendment from the Bible. At least one of the first amendments. Bible says that you shall have no other God before the Bible God. Which was later converted to mean that there is only one God and that you should worship no others. Where is the Constitution of the United States says you are free to worship any god or gods that you want. It is clear from The History of the United States alone that Christians were not inclined to accept that element of the Constitution except where it applied to the assorted sects of Christians. For that matter, Christians still act that way.

The United States is not a theocracy - and I never claimed that it was.

I never claimed that the Constitution or original system of government was founded on "Christian doctrine or beliefs" - but rather "Christian principles".

And again - you keep talking about "Christians" - you and your pivoting.

The fact is that Christianity supports slavery, misogyny, miscegenation laws, homophobia, transphobia, inquisitions, and kingdom of Christ mentalities. You just expressed a few of those.

You have yet to provide any evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ or any of His Apostles taught His followers to buy/sell or otherwise trade in slaves - even though I have asked you to provide said evidence a number of times - so I don't know why you claim it is a fact.

Why do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ disliked, had contempt or prejudice towards women?

As to miscegenation laws - the practice of the faithful avoiding to marry the unfaithful began with Cain and his seed and continued throughout Israel and until the time of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no easier way for a man or woman to fall from the faith than to marry someone who is not of the faith.

There have been exceptions - obviously - but there are exceptions to every rule.

Nowhere does the Lord Jesus Christ teach His followers to have an irrational fear of anything - let alone those who engage in homosexual behavior and those who are confused about their sexual identity.

Nowhere does the Lord Jesus Christ teach His followers to judge others or hold any kind of "inquisition".

I do believe that the Earth was created by the Lord Jesus Christ and that He will return to usher in His millennial reign - but I don't remember bringing that up here.

When did I "express" any of the things you listed?

I am glad that most Christians shun those Christian principles in the same way that you shun slavery.

Christian principles have been the number one deterrent to the practice of slavery throughout the world.

Where are you going to find slaves today?

I hope someday you'll join them.

What I have is sufficient for my needs.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The values you speak of are shared among many cultures. They are not exclusive to Christianity.

Christianity isn't a "culture" - but a religion - and I would contend that any good thing that comes into the world has God as its source.

The bible specifically supports slavery, even as it indirectly condemns it elsewhere.

It supports particular kinds of slavery - both voluntary and involuntary - that were only had in the nation of ancient Israel and were more often than not beneficial to all involved.

I assume you imagine "chattel slavery" like how they had throughout Persia, Africa, Europe and eventually early America - but that is nothing like "slavery" in ancient Israel.

The role of Christians in helping to end slavery (which still exists) is of course commendable.

It didnt lead to the end of slavery any more than the 45 calibre pistol led to the end of WW2.

I claimed that "the U.S. system of government and U.S. Constitution - which were heavily influenced by Christianity" were what "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

Of this there is no doubt.

"Played a role" and " led to" aint the same thing.

I agree - I never claimed that "Christian principles" - by themselves - "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

I actually emphatically claimed that no religion freed any slaves in the West.

Of course, and nobody here is doing the former so what point bringing up the obvious and irrelevant?

I have reason to believe that the OP is doing the former - so that is why I brought it up.

The point of what i said is you are praising the positive and ignoring the negative in the bible re slavery.

I haven't really said much about the Bible in this thread.

I have been referencing "Christian principles" - not the Bible.

The american slavers had no trouble finding support in the bible.

Actually - the Law of Moses condemned the practice of kidnapping and selling those who have been kidnapped.

It also condemned the practice of "chattel slavery" or of having slaves and their descendants be slaves for life - and other inhumane practices of American slave-holders.

Anyone can interpret any thing any way they want to support their cause - but that doesn't mean what they reference actually supports them.

 

[ppp]

Refer to Post #382

 

[Audie]

Christianity isn't a "culture" - but a religion - and I would contend that any good thing that comes into the world has God as its source.

It supports particular kinds of slavery - both voluntary and involuntary - that were only had in the nation of ancient Israel and were more often than not beneficial to all involved.

I assume you imagine "chattel slavery" like how they had throughout Persia, Africa, Europe and eventually early America - but that is nothing like "slavery" in ancient Israel.



I claimed that "the U.S. system of government and U.S. Constitution - which were heavily influenced by Christianity" were what "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

Of this there is no doubt.

I agree - I never claimed that "Christian principles" - by themselves - "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

I actually emphatically claimed that no religion freed any slaves in the West.

I have reason to believe that the OP is doing the former - so that is why I brought it up.

I haven't really said much about the Bible in this thread.

I have been referencing "Christian principles" - not the Bible.

Actually - the Law of Moses condemned the practice of kidnapping and selling those who have been kidnapped.

It also condemned the practice of "chattel slavery" or of having slaves and their descendants be slaves for life - and other inhumane practices of American slave-holders.

Anyone can interpret any thing any way they want to support their cause - but that doesn't mean what they reference actually supports them.

Contend as it suits you, I believe in
no god, and cultures worldwide / through time
have done as I said, with never a nod to any
middle eastern culture.

You said Christian principles led to the abolition ofvslavery and made no mention ofvany other factors.

Slicing up definitions of slavery does zero.
Try the 10th part ofvany of them in the USA
and see what crime you are charged with.

Denying the approval of slavery in the
OT is simply disingenuous.

As for your last which amounts to talking
about whose bible- interpretin' is True spare me

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I do not know what you are trying to say there.

Really?

It is a very simple concept.

It's along the lines of, "Innocent until proven guilty."

Unless you can quote the Lord Jesus Christ advocating and condoning slavery - you cannot claim that He advocates or condones slavery.

It's a very simple concept.

The Bible depicts God as explicitly condoning and advocation for chattel slavery.

No - it does not.

If you want to make this claim - supply your Biblical references.

That is reinforced in Ephesians and Colossians. -- You asked earlier where slavery was supported by either Jesus or his Apostles.

If you want to make this claim - supply your Biblical references.

I always forget that Paul was an Apostle.

This admission does not bode well for you.

Makes it look like you don't know what you are talking about. Don't it?

I don't know if Jesus is God according to your particular sect of Christianity, but Jesus never says that any of that is wrong,.

Any of what is wrong?

You have yet to share your Biblical references.

I would compare the slavery had in ancient Israel to the allowance of divorce in the Law of Moses.

Can you share with me the Lord Jesus Christ's opinion on divorce and how that applies to the relationship between God the Father and His children in mortality?

You asked what kind of evidence would anyone accept. I cannot answer for "anyone" so I answered for myself.

But that evidence would have nothing to do with my original point.

The same applies to you. As well as the RCC.

Correct - which is why I have been repeatedly asking you to go to the source - the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While you have been pointing to "Christians".

Where does the Lord Jesus Christ advocate or condone the practice of slavery?

False.

Wow. What a compelling argument.

Look at my face. This is my "mind blown" face.

False.

Wow. You did it again. I am floored.

If Jesus is God, then he did speak in favor of it.

Tell me about how God the Father feels about divorce and why it was included in the Law of Moses.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Slavery as a significant economic force delined with the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire.
Slavery weasled its way back into some Christian societies by people who breached Christian principles.
But slavery was never able to find a home in Christianity and was eventually banished, not only in Europe
and America, but in Africa and the Muslim world as well by Christian force (mostly British BTW)
Slavery is like war - it existed amongst some Christians in violation of Christianity, not because of Christianity.

Breached Christian principles?

The God of the Bible endorses slavery. Maybe we should be asking you if you've read the Bible.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Really?

You don't think God never condoning or advocating slavery outside of ancient Israel by means of the Law of Moses is relevant to a discussion about whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles condoned or advocated for slavery?

Yes - and thank goodness He does not require mortals to live up to those standards in order to receive redemption, salvation and eventual exaltation.

I don't see how any of these ideas "flout" "Christian values".

You don't believe it rather odd that the Enlightenment took place in predominantly Christian countries?

You would need both to practice "Christian principles".

What is "supernatural"?

The United States is not a theocracy - and I never claimed that it was.

I never claimed that the Constitution or original system of government was founded on "Christian doctrine or beliefs" - but rather "Christian principles".

And again - you keep talking about "Christians" - you and your pivoting.

You have yet to provide any evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ or any of His Apostles taught His followers to buy/sell or otherwise trade in slaves - even though I have asked you to provide said evidence a number of times - so I don't know why you claim it is a fact.

Why do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ disliked, had contempt or prejudice towards women?

As to miscegenation laws - the practice of the faithful avoiding to marry the unfaithful began with Cain and his seed and continued throughout Israel and until the time of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no easier way for a man or woman to fall from the faith than to marry someone who is not of the faith.

There have been exceptions - obviously - but there are exceptions to every rule.

Nowhere does the Lord Jesus Christ teach His followers to have an irrational fear of anything - let alone those who engage in homosexual behavior and those who are confused about their sexual identity.

Nowhere does the Lord Jesus Christ teach His followers to judge others or hold any kind of "inquisition".

I do believe that the Earth was created by the Lord Jesus Christ and that He will return to usher in His millennial reign - but I don't remember bringing that up here.

When did I "express" any of the things you listed?

Christian principles have been the number one deterrent to the practice of slavery throughout the world.

Where are you going to find slaves today?

What I have is sufficient for my needs.

What specific "Christian principles" do you think the (secular) US Constitution were founded upon?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Christianity isn't a "culture" - but a religion - and I would contend that any good thing that comes into the world has God as its source.

It supports particular kinds of slavery - both voluntary and involuntary - that were only had in the nation of ancient Israel and were more often than not beneficial to all involved.

I assume you imagine "chattel slavery" like how they had throughout Persia, Africa, Europe and eventually early America - but that is nothing like "slavery" in ancient Israel.



I claimed that "the U.S. system of government and U.S. Constitution - which were heavily influenced by Christianity" were what "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

Of this there is no doubt.

I agree - I never claimed that "Christian principles" - by themselves - "led to" the abolishment of slavery in the West.

I actually emphatically claimed that no religion freed any slaves in the West.

I have reason to believe that the OP is doing the former - so that is why I brought it up.

I haven't really said much about the Bible in this thread.

I have been referencing "Christian principles" - not the Bible.

Actually - the Law of Moses condemned the practice of kidnapping and selling those who have been kidnapped.

It also condemned the practice of "chattel slavery" or of having slaves and their descendants be slaves for life - and other inhumane practices of American slave-holders.

Anyone can interpret any thing any way they want to support their cause - but that doesn't mean what they reference actually supports them.

The God of the Bible endorsed chattel slavery.
You could buy your non-Hebrew slaves from the nations around you and they were your property for life, as were their children. Christians always seem to ignore that part and instead focus on how "nice" the Hebrew slaves had it. I think the reasons for doing so are obvious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Really?

It is a very simple concept.

It's along the lines of, "Innocent until proven guilty."

Unless you can quote the Lord Jesus Christ advocating and condoning slavery - you cannot claim that He advocates or condones slavery.

It's a very simple concept.

No - it does not.

If you want to make this claim - supply your Biblical references.

If you want to make this claim - supply your Biblical references.

This admission does not bode well for you.

Makes it look like you don't know what you are talking about. Don't it?

Any of what is wrong?

You have yet to share your Biblical references.

I would compare the slavery had in ancient Israel to the allowance of divorce in the Law of Moses.

Can you share with me the Lord Jesus Christ's opinion on divorce and how that applies to the relationship between God the Father and His children in mortality?

But that evidence would have nothing to do with my original point.

Correct - which is why I have been repeatedly asking you to go to the source - the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While you have been pointing to "Christians".

Where does the Lord Jesus Christ advocate or condone the practice of slavery?

Wow. What a compelling argument.

Look at my face. This is my "mind blown" face.

Wow. You did it again. I am floored.

Tell me about how God the Father feels about divorce and why it was included in the Law of Moses.

Leviticus 25:44-46

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


Have you ever read the Bible?

 

[Audie]

The God of the Bible endorsed chattel slavery.
You could buy your non-Hebrew slaves from the nations around you and they were your property for life, as were their children. Christians always seem to ignore that part and instead focus on how "nice" the Hebrew slaves had it. I think the reasons for doing so are obvious.

A lot of our christian friends are eager to grab credit for their faith but run from responsibility
when it doesnt look so good

 

[ppp]

1 - WHO was responsible for the end of slavery after the Roman empire?

When do you think that the legal practice of slavery by Christians ended? Citation, please.

2 - Did the people who REINTRODUCED SLAVERY do so in honor of the bible, or in breach of it?

When do you think that the legal practice of slavery by Christians ended? Citation, please.

3 - Why was it that Christianity finally ended slavery in Europe, the Americas, Africa and the Middle East?

Christianity didn't end anything. Christianity is a religion. If you mean why did Christians outlaw slavery, that was specifically answered in the second paragraph of the post to which you responded.

4 - Why is it that people don't like to think that Lincoln ended slavery as an institution amongst native Americans?

I don't know what this sentence is supposed to be saying. Try rephrasing it. And don't ask me about the motivations of unnamed people.

 

[Audie]

Leviticus 25:44-46

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


Have you ever read the Bible?

I did. Thats why the denial and evasion is so
obvious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A lot of our christian friends are eager to grab credit for their faith but run from responsibility
when it doesnt look so good

So I'm not the only one to notice this?