Come on, Creationists!

[wellwisher]

No - I asked you very specific questions about your claims and the Bible.

I asked you where in the Bible it claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

I asked you if you had ever read the Bible.

You were unwilling to attempt to answer those questions because all you want to do is make claim about the Bible without actually making claim about the Bible.

You are trying to make the claims of the Bible look ridiculous by referencing only what a select group of people have claimed about the Bible.

You are the one with the imperious and presumptive agenda here.

The time scale of 6000 years comes from the Genealogy at the end of Genesis. This genealogy tells about the generations of offspring that are traced to Adam and Eve. All you do is add all the ages together. The math was not done in the Bible, as a bottom line. One needs to use some deductive reasoning and apply some simple math skills.

One of the problems that has been created, due to the genealogy math, is that the six days of creation are assumed to mean earth days, the same as the genealogy. There is nothing in the Bible that the six days of creation implies earth days. This is an assumption.

The earth days assumption for the six days of creation never made sense, to me, since the earth was not created on the first day, to act as the standard. In Astral physics and cosmology, the earliest universe was very highly space-time contracted; all the mass contained in a singularity. One day in that reference, could be billions of earth years; plug into GR for the amount of time dilation.

Earth is not formed until day 3. My guess is the unit of day, was a metaphor for the interval used to define each step of creation. It was not an earth day, but it was a metaphor used to express a phase of creation. In terms of science, the phases for the creation of the universe are from the singularity are; BB inflation, hydrogen atoms appear, galaxies and stars appear, our sun and earth appear, life appears, and then humans appear. They also use six phases or days.

The genealogy does add to 6000 earth years; earth days, so one may ask if the unit called day of Genesis was not an earth day, then what occurred in history, based on the earth days connected to genealogy, 6000 years ago. This was the invention of the written alphabet. Science places a time stamp at about 6000 years ago.

The written alphabet was critical to civilization. It allowed one to have permanent records for construction methods, commerce, and science. Before the written alphabet, these records had to occur by word of mouth which is not as reliable, especially in commerce.

The Bible tells us one application of the new invention, that would alter human nature, forever. It was application of the invention to knowledge of good and evil or law. The problem is once law was written down and carved in stone, laws could exceed their usefulness by being not allowed to change. The result would be repression and the triggering of unconscious dynamics. If the law allowed the killing of witches, because it was written and carved in stone, it may not be allowed to change, even as people outgrow it. The result will repression and compulsive.

Adam and Eve appear to be connected to the genealogy, that was based on earth days. If we go back 6000 years, they would have lived ay the time of the invention of writing. They lost paradise; natural instinct, due to the repression that the new invention induced, via to knowledge and law of good and evil, that could not be changed when expired, except by war and conquest.

To put this invention into perspective, consider a world where there is no written language. You go to school but there are no books, no notes to take, and no type of reading materials to study and research. All you learn has to be based on word of mouth. Most of the lectures will be forgotten in a few days and if you need to refresh your mind, you will need to depend on others to remember for you. Some would con the truth to look smart, while others would misremember. This was not solid standard to depend on. The memory would forget over time and repression would be avoided; still in paradise.

Once written language appears, we now have a tangible and unchanging way to remember, unaffected by the subjectivity of others. It was a tremendous innovation. Science can show that civilization began much earlier than the first permanent civilization, but these all aborted. This was because word of mouth and the atrophy of memory made it harder and harder to sustain the civilization, after the original creators passed. But with written language, the wisdom of the masters would live on, to be learned fresh in a way where all would be on the same page for many generations.

The problem was knowledge and law of good and evil. Written language would make it appear timeless and would cause repressions. The bible shows how humans become very compulsive and almost bestial in Sodom and Gomorrah. Science, commerce and construction were less affected. DNA was not the only way to alter the path of natural selection of humans. Law of good and evil could create artificial selection which altered humans nature away from natural selection; loss of paradise.

The summarize, the genealogy from Adam to Eve added to about 6000 years, which was also the time of the invention of written language. The days of Creations, do not claim these to be earth days, as does the genealogy. These days appear to mean phases of physical creation, with both Genesis and Science, using six basic phases.

 

[ppp]

You are confused. Perhaps willfully. Perhaps not.

I asked you where in the Bible it claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

I did not claim that the Bible says the Earth is 6,000 years old. I said that there are only Biblical interpretations, and nothing else. And I stand by that.

I asked you if you had ever read the Bible.

Fair enough.

You had annoyed me by the time you asked that; by making statements without providing support, and then trying to chastise me for simply responding with, No. As though I am obligated to provide more support against your position than you provided for it. Pfui.

I have read the Bible, several times. As a believer, and as a non-believer in both history and literature courses.

You were unwilling to attempt to answer those questions because all you want to do is make claim about the Bible without actually making claim about the Bible.

Do you understand the difference between making claims about the Bible and making claims about people's beliefs and interpretations around the Bible? I was discussing the latter. The only claim I made about the Bible in the OP was with regards to Onan.

Also: Don't tell me what I want.

You are trying to make the claims of the Bible look ridiculous by referencing only what a select group of people have claimed about the Bible.

Do you understand that there are many, many sects of Christianity with a multitude of interpretations? Basically, you are getting fussed because I am addressing the beliefs of one of the sects with whom you disagree. If your interpretation does not agree with yours, then I am not talking about you.

 

[metis]

It was the Christian principles found in the West that led to the end of slavery in the West.

Christianity did not end slavery in the Middle East because there isn't much Christianity to be found there.

It was the Society of Friends [Quakers] who were first opposed to slavery in the UK and the States, but slavery went on for a lot longer because most denominations were not opposed to it. It was the more liberal denominations that finally began to oppose it, which were found mostly in the North.

The more conservative, largely fundamentalist denominations, were found in the South, and they opposed ending slavery, and even after the Civil War they passed many Jim Crow Laws to keep many near-slavery restrictions.

 

[ppp]

It was the Christian principles found in the West that led to the end of slavery in the West.

I think you are going by the principles of most modern Christians and ignoring the dominant stance of both Christians and Christian institutions for nearly two millennia.

Christianity did not end slavery in the Middle East because there isn't much Christianity to be found there.

I guess that is one of the reasons.

 

[Audie]

In the history books.

As if.

Arent you the one who said, "be specifuc"?

Just admit you made up most of it,

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Um ok but who are the "others", who
has true?

I'm not making any claim as to who has the truth - only that the OP is not reading the Bible his or herself - but is trying to judge the Bible based on the interpretation of others.

 

[Audie]

I'm not making any claim as to who has the truth - only that the OP is not reading the Bible his or herself - but is trying to judge the Bible based on the interpretation of others.

Oh? Did they say they didnt read it?

As for others' interpretations- if you read it,
as I did, someone curious what this alien religion is about, read it without " help"'-
you, like me, would say "Well that was weird",
and set it aside.

Dont try to tell us you were not influenced.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It was the Society of Friends [Quakers] who were first opposed to slavery in the UK and the States, but slavery went on for a lot longer because most denominations were not opposed to it. It was the more liberal denominations that finally began to oppose it, which were found mostly in the North.

The more conservative, largely fundamentalist denominations, were found in the South, and they opposed ending slavery, and even after the Civil War they passed many Jim Crow Laws to keep many near-slavery restrictions.

You are confusing religion with government and political affiliations.

No religion freed the slaves - but the Christian principles imbedded in Western governments - such as those found in the U.S. Constitution - are what led to the abolishment of slavery - as well as a lot of blood - in regards to the U.S. Civil War.

The "liberals" of the North may have been considered "liberal" politically - but not religiously - for they were primarily Christians who referenced both the Constitution and the Bible to support their anti-slavery agenda.

The Republican Party was founded as the Anti-Slavery Party and they opposed the slave-owning Democrats of the South.

It was the Democrats who persecuted Native tribes and enslaved them, passed the Jim Crowe laws and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The Republicans were religious conservatives - but political liberals.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You are confused. Perhaps willfully. Perhaps not.

I did not claim that the Bible says the Earth is 6,000 years old. I said that there are only Biblical interpretations, and nothing else. And I stand by that.

Fair enough.

You had annoyed me by the time you asked that; by making statements without providing support, and then trying to chastise me for simply responding with, No. As though I am obligated to provide more support against your position than you provided for it. Pfui.

I have read the Bible, several times. As a believer, and as a non-believer in both history and literature courses.


Do you understand the difference between making claims about the Bible and making claims about people's beliefs and interpretations around the Bible? I was discussing the latter. The only claim I made about the Bible in the OP was with regards to Onan.

Also: Don't tell me what I want.



Do you understand that there are many, many sects of Christianity with a multitude of interpretations? Basically, you are getting fussed because I am addressing the beliefs of one of the sects with whom you disagree. If your interpretation does not agree with yours, then I am not talking about you.

You are right on all accounts. I presumed too much.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I think you are going by the principles of most modern Christians and ignoring the dominant stance of both Christians and Christian institutions for nearly two millennia.

No - I don't think so.

I guess that is one of the reasons.

One - yes.

 

[Audie]

You are confusing religion with government and political affiliations.

No religion freed the slaves - but the Christian principles imbedded in Western governments - such as those found in the U.S. Constitution - are what led to the abolishment of slavery - as well as a lot of blood - in regards to the U.S. Civil War.

The "liberals" of the North may have been considered "liberal" politically - but not religiously - for they were primarily Christians who referenced both the Constitution and the Bible to support their anti-slavery agenda.

The Republican Party was founded as the Anti-Slavery Party and they opposed the slave-owning Democrats of the South.

It was the Democrats who persecuted Native tribes and enslaved them, passed the Jim Crowe laws and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The Republicans were religious conservatives - but political liberals.

You are welcome to call them
"Christian principles" as long as no
claim of exclusive ownership is involved.

 

[Audie]

No - I don't think so.

One - yes.

Then show us you are not ignoring
and choosing as it suits.

 

[ppp]

You are right on all accounts. I presumed too much.

Thank you.

 

[ppp]

No - I don't think so.

Perhaps not. But I think that the further in time you go you have less and less in come principle-wise with Christians of the time. Obviously there is a core, but in practical terms that core is small in comparison to how one sees and moves in the world.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The time scale of 6000 years comes from the Genealogy at the end of Genesis. This genealogy tells about the generations of offspring that are traced to Adam and Eve. All you do is add all the ages together. The math was not done in the Bible, as a bottom line. One needs to use some deductive reasoning and apply some simple math skills.

One of the problems that has been created, due to the genealogy math, is that the six days of creation are assumed to mean earth days, the same as the genealogy. There is nothing in the Bible that the six days of creation implies earth days. This is an assumption.

The earth days assumption for the six days of creation never made sense, to me, since the earth was not created on the first day, to act as the standard. In Astral physics and cosmology, the earliest universe was very highly space-time contracted; all the mass contained in a singularity. One day in that reference, could be billions of earth years; plug into GR for the amount of time dilation.

Earth is not formed until day 3. My guess is the unit of day, was a metaphor for the interval used to define each step of creation. It was not an earth day, but it was a metaphor used to express a phase of creation. In terms of science, the phases for the creation of the universe are from the singularity are; BB inflation, hydrogen atoms appear, galaxies and stars appear, our sun and earth appear, life appears, and then humans appear. They also use six phases or days.

The genealogy does add to 6000 earth years; earth days, so one may ask if the unit called day of Genesis was not an earth day, then what occurred in history, based on the earth days connected to genealogy, 6000 years ago. This was the invention of the written alphabet. Science places a time stamp at about 6000 years ago.

The written alphabet was critical to civilization. It allowed one to have permanent records for construction methods, commerce, and science. Before the written alphabet, these records had to occur by word of mouth which is not as reliable, especially in commerce.

The Bible tells us one application of the new invention, that would alter human nature, forever. It was application of the invention to knowledge of good and evil or law. The problem is once law was written down and carved in stone, laws could exceed their usefulness by being not allowed to change. The result would be repression and the triggering of unconscious dynamics. If the law allowed the killing of witches, because it was written and carved in stone, it may not be allowed to change, even as people outgrow it. The result will repression and compulsive.

Adam and Eve appear to be connected to the genealogy, that was based on earth days. If we go back 6000 years, they would have lived ay the time of the invention of writing. They lost paradise; natural instinct, due to the repression that the new invention induced, via to knowledge and law of good and evil, that could not be changed when expired, except by war and conquest.

To put this invention into perspective, consider a world where there is no written language. You go to school but there are no books, no notes to take, and no type of reading materials to study and research. All you learn has to be based on word of mouth. Most of the lectures will be forgotten in a few days and if you need to refresh your mind, you will need to depend on others to remember for you. Some would con the truth to look smart, while others would misremember. This was not solid standard to depend on. The memory would forget over time and repression would be avoided; still in paradise.

Once written language appears, we now have a tangible and unchanging way to remember, unaffected by the subjectivity of others. It was a tremendous innovation. Science can show that civilization began much earlier than the first permanent civilization, but these all aborted. This was because word of mouth and the atrophy of memory made it harder and harder to sustain the civilization, after the original creators passed. But with written language, the wisdom of the masters would live on, to be learned fresh in a way where all would be on the same page for many generations.

The problem was knowledge and law of good and evil. Written language would make it appear timeless and would cause repressions. The bible shows how humans become very compulsive and almost bestial in Sodom and Gomorrah. Science, commerce and construction were less affected. DNA was not the only way to alter the path of natural selection of humans. Law of good and evil could create artificial selection which altered humans nature away from natural selection; loss of paradise.

The summarize, the genealogy from Adam to Eve added to about 6000 years, which was also the time of the invention of written language. The days of Creations, do not claim these to be earth days, as does the genealogy. These days appear to mean phases of physical creation, with both Genesis and Science, using six basic phases.

There were a few tangents - but I generally agree - with a few exceptions.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Oh? Did they say they didnt read it?

As for others' interpretations- if you read it,
as I did, someone curious what this alien religion is about, read it without " help"'-
you, like me, would say "Well that was weird",
and set it aside.

Dont try to tell us you were not influenced.

I guess I agree in the sense that no one is an island - we all grow up being influenced by everyone and everything.

However - there is a difference between relying on other's interpretations without ever going to the source material yourself and going to the source material yourself and then looking into other people's interpretations.

 

[ppp]

You are confusing religion with government and political affiliations.

They are not confusing the two. Most sects of Christianity opposed abolition. And they opposed it using the Bible which explicitly condones and advocates for the institution of slavery.

No religion freed the slaves - but the Christian principles imbedded in Western governments - such as those found in the U.S. Constitution - are what led to the abolishment of slavery - as well as a lot of blood - in regards to the U.S. Civil War.

Not in this universe.

[personal politics ignored]

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You are welcome to call them
"Christian principles" as long as no
claim of exclusive ownership is involved.

What do you mean?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Then show us you are not ignoring
and choosing as it suits.

How should I go about doing that other than pointing to the fact that the U.S. system of government and U.S. Constitution - which were heavily influenced by Christianity - were what led to the abolishment of slavery in the Western hemisphere?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Perhaps not. But I think that the further in time you go you have less and less in come principle-wise with Christians of the time. Obviously there is a core, but in practical terms that core is small in comparison to how one sees and moves in the world.

But - I never made any claim about Christians or Christianity as a whole - I said "It was the Christian principles found in the West that led to the end of slavery in the West."