Common Sense Deactivated?

[siti]

The people who have thrown God away are hardly trying to clean up the plane

True - but what about the people who haven't "thrown God away"? What are they doing? When was the last time a Christian organization - like say the Watchtower Society advocated getting rid of automobiles and really living, what was that old public talk title, - "a balanced and simple life"? No - they don't - they take advantage of all the "atheist scientists" "toxic" inventions and blame someone else for the damage they themselves have knowingly inflicted on God's "footstool". And then they have the temerity to judge the 'unbelievers' as being the ones who deserve to "brought to ruin" for "ruining the earth". And yet the very same scriptures they use to damn the atheist condemn them too in even stronger terms - "to whom much is given"..."if you were blind you would have no sin"...etc. etc. You need to go back and read the Bible again and examine your own (individual and collective) responsibility before God. I mean, if we believe the Bible at all, each one of us needs to do that. Does God really want a "paradise" filled with people who did nothing to mitigate the wanton destruction of the earth He created - is "sighing and groaning" really going to be enough to merit divine favour when the chips are really down? Was the little boy who shared the few morsels he had put off from doing what was obviously right because of the size of the crowd? Was the widow who dropped a few small coins in the treasury chest less faithful because her contribution was nowhere enough to build a new temple? Your thinking is diametrically opposed to scripture. "Where", Jesus, might well be asking right now "is your faith?" - where is your faith the size of a mustard grain that can move mountains?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We don't know that definitively yet, but scientists have proved matter can spontaneously appear from nothing under some circumstances.

Only while employing high concentrations of energy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only while employing high concentrations of energy.

And what were the conditions at the time of the Big Bang?

 

[Anto]

Define 'nothing'.

Think of nothing as 'air without the air in it'.

Or just the opposite of 'something', I guess...?

 

[shunyadragon]

You can wait until hell freezes over. I've had enough when someone continues to state I am unethical and dishonest when I have been trying to explain the TRUTH to you. You are too narrow minded to see that you contradict yourself in using common sense and having no test nor falsifiability with a multiverse. Even Stephen Hawking admitted he wanted to know the origin of the universe and why something is greater than nothing. Do you know what the something is and what the nothing is he is referring to? I doubt you know any of these things. Good day, sir ha ha.

No lose, your failure to constructively, coherently respond, and unethically selectively cite scientists to justify your agenda speaks for itself,

For example: It remains a fact that no contemporary physicist nor cosmologist has ever said Newtonian physics as "greater" than Quantum Mechanics.

Still waiting . . . but I will likely be blessed with the void of ignorance.

 

[shunyadragon]

Think of nothing as 'air without the air in it'.

Or just the opposite of 'something', I guess...?

Not an adequate definition of nothing. Simple definition of nothing is defined lack of something, not necessarily 'air.' For example: 'There is nothing in the box.' does not translate to there is no 'air' in the box.

Nothing needs to be defined in the context of what is lacking to be 'nothing.'

In philosophy/theological the absolute nothing is the absence of anything.

In science the 'nothing' of the Quantum World of Quantum Mechanics it is indeed something. It is the Micro World world of Quantum zero point energy and Quantum gravity. In the Quantum World 'nothing' we do not have the relativity of 'space and time' dimensions, nor Gravity as in the the Macro World.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Surely you know how the patent system works in the land of capitalism?

You can 'know' of natural plants that have curative properties, but you can't patent them. Unless you modify or synthesize them in some way, you can't 'own' them or claim to have 'invented' them. Once you produce something artificial (i.e. not the original composition of the plant) you can apply for a patent and once that is granted...you can own it. When you own it, you can then charge exorbitant amounts of money for it regardless of how cheap it is to produce.

This is the base of the current medical system. It knows its pharmacology; it knows a little about "natural" whole plant medicine but treats it as quackery. Once you remove components from the whole plant that all work in conjunction with one another, you destroy its healing properties. It might work to a small extent, but nothing like the plant that the Creator put here for the benefit of living things. Do you understand what you are defending? Its an extremely corrupt system, like all the rest. Follow the money trail.

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Yes, because a lot of what you call "natural" doesn't work. It’s been tested and found wanting. The stuff that does work is used to create drugs to treat illness and disease.

What scientists actually do is to find active ingredients in the natural world that have some kind of potential useful effect on humans. Then they try to isolate the particular ingredient(s) and prepare it in a way that it can be ingested and used most efficiently. For example, digoxin which is used to treat various heart ailments like arrhythmia, is derived from the foxglove plant, which is also known for being poisonous when ingested. It’s also quite a beautiful plant. I wonder why a god would design such a beautiful plant that attracts children to it, only to make it poisonous when ingested.

Penicillin mold naturally produces the antibiotic Penicillin. So rather than just feeding mold to people, scientists grow the mold in fermentation tanks and treat it to separate the penicillin from the mold and package it in a way that will deliver it much more efficiently throughout our bodies.


Try taking a pharmacology or psychopharmacology course for some factual information. Because remember, the people selling you these so-called "natural cures" make a lot of money selling that stuff as well. It's also a multi-billion dollar industry. It’s also highly unregulated so that when you purchase the stuff, you really have no idea what concentrations you are ingesting. That’s potentially dangerous.

That "scientific understanding" is not as magnanimous as you think it is. It is designed to make big corporations rich, not to cure anyone of any disease.

Please demonstrate this.

There is no money in "cures"...only in "treatments" which are little more than things that are designed to mask symptoms....giving the impression that it is working.

It’s extremely difficult to find outright “cures” for diseases (though it has been done). Quite often the underlying cause is unknown, though the ways in which the symptoms manifest themselves can be understood and treated.

The endless lists of harmful 'side effects' for all these artificial substances that humans swallow by the ton each year, means that they can sell more overpriced drugs to offset the poison that they have already given you. A "side effect" is your body's way of objecting to something that is causing it damage.

Time to wake up to who is running this show.... [

I told you this the last time you brought up this topic. Side effects are not the “body’s way of objecting to something that is causing it damage.” Side effects are a result of the effects of the drug interacting with other parts of the body, other than the specific part being treated. (By the way, side effects aren’t always harmful. For example, Carbamazepine is used to treat epileptic seizures or bipolar disorder, with side effects that have been found to be useful in treating ADHD, PTSD and schizophrenia. ) Because again, it’s difficult to create a drug delivery system that targets only the affected area given that the various parts of our bodies don’t work independently of each other and our blood flows to every part of our bodies.


By the way, “natural” or “herbal” remedies also have side effects. It’s just how our bodies work.

 

[shunyadragon]

Or maybe there is a power 'out there' beyond anything that puny human intellect can even comprehend?

Of course this is possible. It is the belief of Theists, not science.

Does your "maybe" have more evidence than my "maybe"? That's the thing with "belief" systems....since there is no "proof" for either, we can choose which one appeals to us for whatever reason. I don't hold evolutionary science in high esteem because it offers no answers for the big questions. If this is all just one monumental accident, then where will it all end. The Bible gives me a beginning, a middle and an end. Its been spot on so far so why should I doubt it, or swap it for pie in the sky?

First, problem is that you continually refer to the question of proof, which science does not claim to 'prove,' nor 'know,' nor can theists claim 'proof' nor 'know,'

What the Bible provides you is based on your faith and what you believe the Bible means to you. And technically outside your believe this is a pie in the sky argument, without outside confirmation with objective evidence.

The question is does science in anyway 'know' the universe or our physical existence has a beginning, which you are avoiding? The reality is based on the present objective evidence science cannot 'know either way.

Yet it never allows that 'lack of information' to get in the way of claiming that its findings are all to be accepted as facts, especially in the minds of children, indoctrinated well before they ever reach college age. The original video is proof of that. It was very apparent that these kids had no idea how to defend their own "beliefs".

Classic misrepresentation by Creationists of the nature of scientific knowledge and how it is presented in education.

Why were they all proudly atheists?

False, they are not all atheists.

Why did they squirm under his simple questioning?

No one is squirming their seats.

If evolutionists can't defend what they believe, then they have no business claiming to believe it. Its just hot air. If they have no more real evidence than their opponents, then why do they act like they do? I think we know.

Scientist do defend the science of evolution very adequately with the objective verifiable evidence.

Please define the word "natural" because you seem to be inferring that it is much the same as 'magic'.....something that happens with no explanation other than it was....."natural"......

Explain life coming into existence as something "natural".

Natural is not magic. It is simply the processes based on Natural Laws. There is no objective verifiable evidence of any other cause. Can you provide any objective verifiable evidence for any other cause?

Despite that fact that science knows from its own experiments that "life always comes from pre-existing life"....abiogenesis is the exception. No proof...just an assertion that there is one exception to that rule. That does not sound like science to me...it sounds more like wishful thinking.

Again the deliberate misuse of the methods and the nature of the conclusions of science. Science does not know nor prove anything despite your unfounded assertion that science 'knows' that our universe has a beginning.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God. God doesn't have a beginning as he is eternal, timeless (no beginning), immaterial, spaceless, uncaused, and all powerful. This follows the rules of logic. As for common sense, I would think that it depends on whether you believe this is all there is and all there will be or whether you believe you only live twice as in the title of one of my movies.

So it's not logical to say that a universe can come from nothing and/or has just always existed, but it's perfectly logical to say that some God(s) can come from nothing and/or has just always existed?

How does that work?

 

[Polymath257]

The creator fits in because no one can create an atom except for the creator. For example, Gold is a symbol of divinity and an atom. Gold was given to the baby Jesus to signify his divinity. No person will be able to create gold. No person will be able to create an atom even though they are able to split an atom. Something is always greater than nothing and the only explanation why would be a creator.

When we say that the ancient Egyptians created the pyramids, we do not claim that they created the rocks from which the pyramids were made.

Humans have created atoms. They do so by combining, say, protons with electrons to produce hydrogen atoms. They have created gold by colliding two other types of atom and allowing the nuclear processes to produce gold atoms. In both cases, the element was not there initially and was there at the end and the production was determined by humans.

We have also created atoms of anti-matter, by making anti-protons and combining them with positrons (anti-electrons). In that case, both the anti-proton and the positron were also created by humans: before the process, neither was there.

That sounds like creation of an atom to me.

 

[shunyadragon]

Only while employing high concentrations of energy.

False, please cite where scientists have claimed or documented this.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

False, please cite where scientists have claimed or documented this.

Really?
Google “HADRON”; “CERN”; ‘super collider.’

Energy and matter are simply two sides of the same coin.

Matter creation - Wikipedia

 

[shunyadragon]

Really?
Google “HADRON”; “CERN”; ‘super collider.’

Energy and matter are simply two sides of the same coin.

Matter creation - Wikipedia

True, but does not answer your assertion. In the Quantum world like the physical world energy and matter will always be in balance. In the Quantum World the definition of Quantum zero point energy is defined as all the potential energy and matter equals zero as in the Macro World of our physical existence. There is no limit to the Quantum World of the potential of energy and matter,

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Better to say no limit that we know of.

 

[shunyadragon]

Better to say no limit that we know of.

OK

 

[Deeje]

True - but what about the people who haven't "thrown God away"? What are they doing? When was the last time a Christian organization - like say the Watchtower Society advocated getting rid of automobiles and really living, what was that old public talk title, - "a balanced and simple life"? No - they don't - they take advantage of all the "atheist scientists" "toxic" inventions and blame someone else for the damage they themselves have knowingly inflicted on God's "footstool". And then they have the temerity to judge the 'unbelievers' as being the ones who deserve to "brought to ruin" for "ruining the earth". And yet the very same scriptures they use to damn the atheist condemn them too in even stronger terms - "to whom much is given"..."if you were blind you would have no sin"...etc. etc. You need to go back and read the Bible again and examine your own (individual and collective) responsibility before God.

Do you know of any scripture that tells us that humans will stop ruining the earth in order to bring about any significant change?

We are admonished to reduce our "footprint" as much as humanly possible, but it has its limits and success rates in amongst the things that work against it in satan's system. A few drops of water in an ocean will not even be noticed.....much less the actions of a few ecologically minded humans who are screaming at the world to stop polluting it! It isn't going to happen. Knowing this, our efforts are put to use in other directions that count more in the big picture.

Knowing that God has placed the cleansing of the earth in his own jurisdiction allows us to use whatever this system provides (within reasonable limits) to do what Jesus asked us to do. He didn't tell us to advocate for political solutions to man's greed...he simply told us to preach the Kingdom message, however and wherever we were.

We are in a similar situation to Noah.....he wasn't told to step in and halt the wicked acts he saw every day....he was told that he needed to give his full attention to his assignment. God would take care of wicked humanity and cleanse the earth. Noah had another important job to do....saving his family and the chosen specimens of the animals kingdom. He did what he was instructed to do even though wickedness was all around him.

God said he will cleanse the earth again.
Revelation 11:18:..."But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

This earth belongs to God and he will see to it that polluters will be 'brought to ruin'. That isn't our job. He is the Landlord so eviction notices are being served as we speak. The Landlord will see to the repairs after the eviction is carried out. God made the first paradise and commanded humans to spread it to the whole earth.....I believe that he will prepare the earth again for that first purpose to be completed.

I mean, if we believe the Bible at all, each one of us needs to do that.

We need to concentrate on what the Bible tells all Christians to do....tell people about God's Kingdom. It is the only hope for this troubled generation and the only solution powerful enough to do the job properly. Humans are too busy making money to care about the planet or the impact their activities are having on future generations.

Does God really want a "paradise" filled with people who did nothing to mitigate the wanton destruction of the earth He created - is "sighing and groaning" really going to be enough to merit divine favour when the chips are really down?

As long as those who follow through on what they are instructed to do in this time of the end, those who "sigh and groan" will be grateful to learn the reasons behind all of it. The 'sighing and groaning' was not just about what is happening in the world, but what was happening "in Jerusalem" which was the seat of God's worship. They were lamenting about what was happening in that sphere of human life. Many people today are likewise wondering what is going on because of the divisions and strife they see among those who purport to worship the true God. "Jerusalem" is a mess.

God will get rid of the culprits and he has an army of cleaners ready for the clean-up job.....millions of them.

Your thinking is diametrically opposed to scripture. "Where", Jesus, might well be asking right now "is your faith?" - where is your faith the size of a mustard grain that can move mountains?

Then you don't know scripture. If you knew what he meant, you would not be making that application....it was metaphorical. Obstacles the size of mountains can be overcome by faith. Our faith at present is the size of a mustard grain because of our imperfections.....yet it is still powerful, but one day it will be the size of the tree.

To be part of Jehovah's arrangement, you always had to be part of his nation....In order to be saved in Noah's day, you had to be inside the ark....no one swimming outside of it was saved. I don't believe that there were any lifeboats. (Matthew 24:37-39) There aren't any today either.

 

[siti]

Do you know of any scripture that tells us that humans will stop ruining the earth in order to bring about any significant change?

Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 65:21-25...etc.

 

[Deeje]

Yes, because a lot of what you call "natural" doesn't work. It’s been tested and found wanting.

Tested by whom.....you can't be serious. Natural medicines have been tested on hundreds of thousands of patients who found them to be very helpful in managing their illnesses. Auto-immune disorders are now presenting in epidemic proportions, misdiagnosed and mistreated with dangerous artificial chemicals that just make their conditions worse. Doctors don't know what to do anymore.

The stuff that does work is used to create drugs to treat illness and disease.

Yep "treat" is the operative word. A "treatment" is something they hope you might have to take for the rest of your life. It will never cure you but it might make the symptoms go away temporarily so that you think it is doing something good.....it usually isn't, as the endless list of side effects in the notes in the box have to tell you to watch out that the stuff doesn't kill you. If you have side effects that can be "treated" by other drugs then they will load you up with as much as you can take.....that is pharmacology. Cher-ching!

What scientists actually do is to find active ingredients in the natural world that have some kind of potential useful effect on humans. Then they try to isolate the particular ingredient(s) and prepare it in a way that it can be ingested and used most efficiently. For example, digoxin which is used to treat various heart ailments like arrhythmia, is derived from the foxglove plant, which is also known for being poisonous when ingested. It’s also quite a beautiful plant. I wonder why a god would design such a beautiful plant that attracts children to it, only to make it poisonous when ingested.

This is what they tell you. The truth has come to light in recent years exposing the whole orthodox medical system for what it is. Corrupt to its core.

No doubt there are some medicines that have been put to good use, but for the most part, isolation of a component in a plant means that it can be patented....ensuring that drug companies who own those patents can charge whatever they want for them. One of the biggest money spinners for them is chemotherapy. How many patients actually survive the treatment and then find it comes back in a few years? Cannabis has cured many cancers but continues to be blocked as a treatment for many who suffer terminal illnesses. If it works, why is this the case?

In many cases of intractable epilepsy, the medical professionals make sure that every pharmaceutical drug is tried first, when cannabis should be the first port of call. Nothing works for neurological conditions better than medicinal cannabis, but you'd never know it.

We have many horror stories in Australia of parents being arrested and their children removed from their custody because they found a medicine that actually works with no side effects for their child's epilepsy. Some of these kids are seizure free for the first time in their lives but authorities accuse them of being criminals for giving them this medicine. They are taken away and immediately put back on poison pharma drugs and their seizures return as before....what is wrong with this picture?

Penicillin mold naturally produces the antibiotic Penicillin. So rather than just feeding mold to people, scientists grow the mold in fermentation tanks and treat it to separate the penicillin from the mold and package it in a way that will deliver it much more efficiently throughout our bodies.

Never said all drugs were bad. Just questioning the motives that big pharma has for peddling expensive drugs that have dangerous side effects whilst ignoring harmless drugs like cannabis which have been proven countless times to be effective and safe.

Try taking a pharmacology or psychopharmacology course for some factual information.

Again...who teaches pharmacology? I would hardly call it an unbiased source of information...more like indoctrination IMO.
The fox teaching other foxes how to guard the hen house.

Because remember, the people selling you these so-called "natural cures" make a lot of money selling that stuff as well. It's also a multi-billion dollar industry.

Follow the money trail I always say. If something is exorbitantly expensive I don't trust it. I try to eat as healthily as I can...I grow my own vegetables when possible, and I take vitamin supplements because I believe that my body doesn't get enough nutrients from food alone these days. I don't drink tap water and I fast twice a week. I can only do so much in such a polluted world.

The Hippocratic oath that medicos take is first of all to "do not harm"....I don't see how modern doctors can possibly carry out that oath.
The drugs prescribed for so many common conditions do more harm than good most of the time.

I sat at the chemist the other day and watched as old and obese people carried baskefuls of drugs to the cash register. It is horrifying.

It’s also highly unregulated so that when you purchase the stuff, you really have no idea what concentrations you are ingesting. That’s potentially dangerous.

So imagine if it was regulated and the truth was told and medicine actually worked with the body instead of against it. We need an honest incorruptible system, but in this world...that is not possible.

Please demonstrate this.

Don't get me started. We are way off topic already, but please start a thread on this and I will be happy to contribute.

It’s extremely difficult to find outright “cures” for diseases (though it has been done). Quite often the underlying cause is unknown, though the ways in which the symptoms manifest themselves can be understood and treated.

How often do we hear about all those "breakthroughs" that medical science brags about......they will be so wonderful!....but it will take at least 10 years to get them to the market.....now ask yourself how many of those "breakthroughs" have we ever seen materialize?
Its a carrot that no one ever gets to eat. Its a marketing ploy to make people think that they are actually doing something when they are doing very little. They can map the human genome but they can't cure cancer....? They don't want to cure cancer...it is their biggest money spinner.

Side effects are not the “body’s way of objecting to something that is causing it damage.” Side effects are a result of the effects of the drug interacting with other parts of the body, other than the specific part being treated. (By the way, side effects aren’t always harmful. For example, Carbamazepine is used to treat epileptic seizures or bipolar disorder, with side effects that have been found to be useful in treating ADHD, PTSD and schizophrenia. ) Because again, it’s difficult to create a drug delivery system that targets only the affected area given that the various parts of our bodies don’t work independently of each other and our blood flows to every part of our bodies.

How about medicinal cannabis' effect on many neurological conditions? Parkinsons, epilespy, Huntington's Disease, dementia, and a whole lot of others? It works way better than any pharmaceutical drug and it can be grown in your own garden for nothing! Imagine!

 

[Deeje]

Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 65:21-25...etc.

Oh dear.....these are prophesies about the new world ( 2 Peter 3:13)....but you knew that, right?
A cleansed earth will be a blank canvas for all that to take place after Armageddon. Won't it be wonderful!

 

[siti]

Oh dear.....these are prophesies about the new world ( 2 Peter 3:13)....

Oh are they? So they're not prophesies about people who have learned to build houses and grow food etc. in a socially and ecologically sustainable manner? They're not prophesies about "God's creation" being treated with respect by individual humans?