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Communism/Socialism v. Capitalism - which one is better really?

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I've been having a bit of a Red week recently and been trying to make the case for Socialism , without a great deal of success I must add!

But which one is really better?

Yes, they both have flaws.

Capitalism seems to promote greed, whilst Socialism seems to need restricted freedom and many argue that it promotes poverty.

So which must it be?

Is there a way to make either system work properly for the benefit of mankind/country in general?
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I will try and be open to suggestions about the benefits of Capitalism even though I consider myself to be a Red.:)
 
I feel Socialism is better, if executed properly.

Both allow for individualism, both allow us to trade freely with one another, but capitalism is about acquiring capital, where socialism is centered around bettering the masses.

I don't feel either has been poperly carried out, both have been attempted with corruption.

I really have no problem with capitalism so long as those at the top work as hard and get paid only as much as those laborers doing the work for them. Capital is a result of labor, it cannot exist without it.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
In general I believe that individuals are happiest when they feel self-empowered; whether talking about one's standing in a relationship, organization, or society, disenfranchisement only hinders growth and encourages bad behavior.

This may sound like I'm parroting a capitalist perspective, but from my observations the fundamental divide which holds most workers at the throat is perilous to self-empowerment. Most people don't feel attached to their work, are not able to pursue their interests, and have no real say in the economic activities that surround them.

I believe in a protective welfare state that doesn't hinder economic growth. I believe in laws and regulations that encourage small business competition, not conglomerates. I believe consumer and worker co-ops should be the main entities in existence in a market, and if they're not, the laws are junk. I believe symptomatic poverty is not natural.
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
There's a reason communism failed all over the world. As with many forms of idealism it often makes assumptions about human nature that are unrealistic. In this case, communism failed to realize that people would cease to work hard without incentive.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I don't feel either has been poperly carried out, both have been attempted with corruption.

This seems to have hit the nail on the head.

Neither system given a correct chance to work in a well ordered manner.

Soviet Union, China and Cambodia taken over by ruthless dictators in true 'vulgar Marxism' style.

but how about if they were given another chance, or Lenin had lived longer, or Trotsky come to power instead of Stalin?

As for Capitalism , maybe there is away to cut down on the greed and promote a better distribution of the wealth?

Or do we really need equality anyway?
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
There's a reason communism failed all over the world. As with many forms of idealism it often makes assumptions about human nature that are unrealistic. In this case, communism failed to realize that people would cease to work hard without incentive.

How about an incentive based form of Socialism?

did you read any of my 'maximum salary' thread in the General Debates section?

there, I argued that a salary cap should be put in place of 100K/year per person though this could be upped if necessary - what do you think of that idea?

and btw: good to see you again:)
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I'll check that link out and come back to you on that one, as I've often seen this experiment quoted in these types of debate.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Communism is better, but the way there must be reform and labor strikes instead of revolution. Greed isn't the only incentive for hard work and communism doesn't mean that people can't buy stuff. Kropotkin argued that people do need "luxury", IIRC.

I don't think that pure capitalism could ever work, which is why it needs governments to uphold patents and to bail the big corporations out when they crash. If capitalism indeed was a good system, it wouldn't be so unstable and leave so many people poor.
 
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nnmartin

Well-Known Member
yes, the boom and bust cycle that Marx predicted seems to be continuing unabated - only the form of it has changed slightly over the years.

Capitalism really does seem to be a system that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer - or does anyone disagree?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
But which one is really better?

First a few caveats:
Socialism and Communism are not the same thing.
There has never been a pure socialist, communist or capitalist system in the history of mankind, and as has been pointed out in this thread, the attempts to implement them have often been rife with corruption.

Yes, they both have flaws.

The main flaw in all systems, economic or otherwise, is human nature.
One of the core ideas of Marxism, contribute as much as you can and recieve as much as you need, is a wonderful idea, but historically it has not worked.
The closest you get to a socialist society (albeit with very present elements of capitalism) would be the Scandinavian countries.

Capitalism seems to promote greed, whilst Socialism seems to need restricted freedom and many argue that it promotes poverty.

The Scandinavian countries mentioned above seem to be doing fine. Much better than most of the rest of the world in fact, and while it could be argued that Norway has gained a lot of its wealth due to oil, the same cannot be said about for instance Denmark and Sweden.

So which must it be?

I favour a strong wellfare state aptly controlled by elected politicians in turn elected by an informed public. For this to happen you need an independent media (i.e. not controlled overtly by neither the state nor corporations) that bring different points of view to the front as well as a functioning educational system that emphasises how to think instead of what to think.
Currently that seems to result in a socialist state with capitalist elements.

Is there a way to make either system work properly for the benefit of mankind/country in general?

Yes, but it requires a high-tech surplus society and the abolishment of the monetary system.
If everything is avaliable to everyone there is no need to fight over resources and people can instead pursuit knowledge, art and philosophy for everyone's benefit.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A good explanation as to why all power structures are diabolical.

I had a read through that link earlier and although it shows some vaguely related psychologies I can't really see how this experiment could be transposed to a societal situation as the difference in magnitude is way too great.

24 students playing as prisoners is hardly the same thing as a government power structure.

Also , if you know that you can leave the experimental prison it would surely create a different mindset - but who could really leave Stalin's state?
 

Shermana

Heretic
What does "Capitalism" mean exactly? And what does "Socialism" mean?

Does "Socialism" mean an overarching Government that allocates resources as the central committee sees fit? Does it simply mean government programs? Does it refer to state control over the finances? Over the agriculture? Does it mean fighting inflation through artificially fixing prices in a way that disrupts the supply-chain of profit? Does it mean implementing government programs and forcing people to accept them whether they like it or not, especially when they benefit their cronies? If that's the definition of "Socialism", then it will not work, and intrudes on people's freedoms to a degree that is not helpful except to the ones who abuse the system, it will only lead to black markets.

And for "Capitalism" does that mean that whatever goes, goes and that there's no controls over the markets to prevent Cartels and Crony Capitalism (i.e. "Fascism") and Plutocracy in which the wealth and resources are ultimately owned by a select few, and in a way which the cartels do their best to stamp out local competition and manipulate prices as they please? Will the Lobbyists manipulate the votes on the representative level that bypasses the common will? There's so many ways to abuse "Capitalism" that there's a reason no country lives in a purely "Free Market", though they are under the equivalently worse collusion of Business with Government in which the interests of the most moneyed dominate everyone else's.

It seems both Capitalism and Socialism inevitably lead to meeting in the middle through Cronyism and corruption, in which the power elites will inevitably work the system to their advantage, leaving everyone else less and less.

But what about the concept of individual local Communes? What about the idea of limited socialism or simply having a Centralized planning authority to oversee the market and correct market errors (i.e. greed and manipulation) and having each local society determine what's best for them, what programs are best, what measures are best to curb abuses of industry and government alike? Will a Free Market necessarily lead to infrastructure and roads development? Why is the government required to give approval to individual states to develop energy and transport systems? Why is the government the only entity nowadays that is interested in building roads and rails? Why has the Private sector lost interest? Would a completely free market dump industrial chemicals into the river with impunity? Would they make Monsanto's grip on the food industry look small in comparison? Is it Socialist-style policies that enable Monsanto to dominate food production with genetically-modified abominations, or is the free market producers who will always look for the cheapest product while keeping the consumer in the dark about its consequences? Would a totally free market mean more Monsantos or less?

And what about distribution of currency? Under a Totally free market, would we have it even worse than the Federal Reserve? Would we have more examples like the crash of 1907 which spurred the Fed? Was Andrew Jackson's battle against the Second National Bank a battle against or for Capitalism?

In the end, the best system is a style of "socialism" in which it's mostly voluntary and elected, not done at the whim of an Oligarchy who uses the social programs and financial controls to further their own individual agendas, one that doesn't involve a one-size-fits-all approach, and encourages a semi-free market (a semi free market would only help the small-to-middle by preventing the large businesses from stomping on the competition and forming price-control cartels) while still having a watch on private measures designed for maximum exploitation. Only through a mix of a Free-market and a Socialist-style distribution of available opprotunity (as opposed to resources themselves) can there be a balance. In my opinon.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"Better", in an objective sense, does not apply.
I prefer capitalism. (It's a liberty thing.)
Others prefer socialism. (A security thing, eh?)
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
The 'liberty thing' is surely up for debate though.

How do we really define liberty?

Am I really free if I have to work for the business owner who is also my landlord?

The situation where I work for him for low wages then pay it all back again via rent and shopping at his store is a strange kind of freedom.

and how about the small business owners, tradesmen and the like that have their livings taken away from them by the corporations - how free is that?
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The 'liberty thing' is surely up for debate though.
How do we really define liberty?
Liberty | Define Liberty at Dictionary.com

Am I really free if I have to work for the business owner who is also my landlord?
You can work somewhere else.

The situation where I work for him for low wages then pay it all back again via rent and shopping at his store is a strange kind of freedom.
Do you really live in a company town to that extent, or is this hypothetical?

and how about the small business owners, tradesmen and the like have their livings taken away from them by the corporations - how free is that?
Is this another hypothetical?
In socialism, the government owns the means of production, so the small business owner theoretically doesn't even exist.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Much as I'm not a great fan of semantics, I thought point 3 in the definition of liberty was worth copying:

(from Wikipedia)

3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

My scenario with the all powerful landlord hardly creates a picture of liberty for the tennant/worker under this usage of the word.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Would Medieval Feudalism be an example of a purely free market? Would Russian serfs who were born as the property of their Boyars be an example of Plutocracy in action?
 
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