Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

[WonderingWorrier]

Simply claiming that an error has been made as opposed to demonstrating it by quoting scripture are two very different things.

Hi Steve. I didnt get a response about my post 24. I was quoting scripture and demonstrating how signs work.

Can you please tell me if you actually read it. Did you look at the link provided to the other thread which might help with understanding what Im saying?
Or did you just skip it and not bother reading it? Its not unusual for me to get no response. Ive been at this forum for quite a while trying to explain this concept of how I hear prophets are talking. Am I being shrugged off or not understood, am I wrong. I dont know if I am making any sense or not. I am trying to explain.

In the post 24 I quoted this part of the Quran to show what I refer to as layers. There are different layers of symbols in these two verses:

"With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought. He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise". 16:11-12

And I quoted this part of the Quran to show the combining of symbols from those different layers. So in the speech of prophets the symbols are being put into alignment according to shared positioning. The nonsense they say makes sense in this way.

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. 24:35

To help explain I also do a visual representation of what Im saying when I do these lists of words/symbols:

Position1 - Position2 - Position3

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Moon - Star - Sun

Layers are shown left to right, and alignment is up and down:
I am showing the up and down alignment that Im talking about by the highlighting.



Can you (or anyone) understand what I am trying to say and show examples of?
I heard this way of speaking in the OT, I can also show examples of the NT and Quran speaking in the same way.

 

[stevecanuck]

Hi Steve. I didnt get a response about my post 24. I was quoting scripture and demonstrating how signs work.

Can you please tell me if you actually read it. Did you look at the link provided to the other thread which might help with understanding what Im saying?
Or did you just skip it and not bother reading it? Its not unusual for me to get no response. Ive been at this forum for quite a while trying to explain this concept of how I hear prophets are talking. Am I being shrugged off or not understood, am I wrong. I dont know if I am making any sense or not. I am trying to explain.

In the post 24 I quoted this part of the Quran to show what I refer to as layers. There are different layers of symbols in these two verses:



And I quoted this part of the Quran to show the combining of symbols from those different layers. So in the speech of prophets the symbols are being put into alignment according to shared positioning. The nonsense they say makes sense in this way.


To help explain I also do a visual representation of what Im saying when I do these lists of words/symbols:

Position1 - Position2 - Position3

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Moon - Star - Sun

Layers are shown left to right, and alignment is up and down:
I am showing the up and down alignment that Im talking about by the highlighting.



Can you (or anyone) understand what I am trying to say and show examples of?
I heard this way of speaking in the OT, I can also show examples of the NT and Quran speaking in the same way.

When I saw this, "I am explaining how the term "Son of God" is also the Olive, Oil, and Star.", I realized that you were trying to explain some sort of symbolism which does not apply literally as "the son of God" in the person of Jesus. I don't see that theory applies here. Sorry.

 

[stevecanuck]

Better late than never. My understanding of Islam is, by no means, perfect, but it is fairly extensive and accurate.

I'm actually a bit shocked at how ignorant the general population is regarding Islam - even today.

Admittedly, I did get a chuckle out of an American group a few years back called "Gays for Palestine" or something. I get that they wanted to be supportive of Palestinians, but it is somewhat hilarious that they could be so disconnected from Palestinian culture.

I feel the same way about Progressive, peace-loving women who defend Islam. They obviously don't know that Islam stands for everything they hate.

 

[stevecanuck]

... Meanwhile, the Qur'an and the environment built around it go out of their ways to insist that the text is not only literal instruction from the sole creator god, but also immutable, perfect and a source of duty to everyone who learns of it. In so many words, it teaches that fanatic theocracy is a virtue that ought to be pursued and demanded relentlessly.

That's so true and so well stated as to deserve a bump.

 

[syo]

Good luck!

 

[WonderingWorrier]

When I saw this, "I am explaining how the term "Son of God" is also the Olive, Oil, and Star.", I realized that you were trying to explain some sort of symbolism which does not apply literally as "the son of God" in the person of Jesus. I don't see that theory applies here. Sorry.

Why cant you see it applies here? Where do you think here is?

I know that the Qur'an claims that Jews say Ezra is the son of God (9:30). I'm pretty sure that's not true.

One area that the Bible and the Qur'an are totally at odds is in the status of the person of Jesus Christ.

As to Jesus, here is what the Qur'an says about the horror of claiming him to be the son of God"

The speech is symbolism.


I think if you looked into what I said to look into you would see the relation of the terms "Son of God" and Star, and also the relation of the terms "Children of God" and Oil.


Stars as Sons of God:
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:7


Wife is as grape vine, and children as olive plants:
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Psalm 128:3


And God is as husband:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5



The verses are different layer alignment verses. Can see the son/children position is as olive and star, and the wife position is as grape vine and sun:

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Moon - Star - Sun

I also showed in the Quran it speaks of the two layers. The corn, olive, grape layer then followed by the moon, star, sun layer in the next verse.
Then I showed the Quran verse that puts Olive and the Star into alignment. One symbol from each layer.

Are you not able to understand this?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

you were trying to explain some sort of symbolism

Yeah I am trying to explain "some sort" of symbolism.

I will put it this another way and maybe it will help with understanding. I will use letters and numbers rather than words because using words could be confusing you.

So here is a layer of letters A - B - C
And here is a layer of numbers: 1 - 2 - 3

So if I say "A - 2 - C" as a sentence then I am not speaking nonsense as the sequence is still correct. It is still true.

The speech of the prophets is still correct in the same way. When people do not understand this way they think verses are talking about magic/miracles because they dont understand how the words of nonsense are true.

You said earlier Muhammad didnt perform miracles. I say there are no magical miracles in the Bible either. Explaining the nonsense verses as being magic/miracles is just a misunderstanding of the sequencing of words according to their positioning.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Another way Ive tried explaining this is showing words being three different levels/positions of height. Just as the stream is at a higher level than the river, and the river is at a higher level than the sea. Just as the mountain is at a higher level than the hill, and the hill is at a higher level than the valley.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain



In this way these sentences of nonsense make sense:

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm 65:13


Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain


Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14


Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain


Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos 9:13

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain


That is how I hear the words corn (bread), the oil, and the wine.

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. Psalm 104:15



As you can see the alignment verses are not talking about magical miracles, they are talking about word/symbol positioning.

Just like as in my letter and number explanation. They are saying A shall be 1, B shall be 2, and C shall be 3.

Is that difficult to understand?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

trying to explain some sort of symbolism

If you are listening to what I am saying and can understanding what I am saying then we could talk about the violence that the prophets speak of.

The violence of the lower places, and the higher places:

Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

Spear - Sword - Bow

As you can see the oil is as the sword:

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm 55:21

Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow

Can you understand the violence that I am trying to speak of?

 

[stevecanuck]

If you are listening to what I am saying and can understanding what I am saying then we could talk about the violence that the prophets speak of.

The violence of the lower places, and the higher places:

Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

Spear - Sword - Bow

As you can see the oil is as the sword:

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm 55:21

Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow

Can you understand the violence that I am trying to speak of?

Sorry. I have no clue what this is. None.

Please stop posting in this thread.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn’t it the case that the Quran is considered by Moslems to be a revealed text, and thus the literal unexpurgated word of God? Whereas only one book in the Bible - that would be Revelation - claims to be revealed. Bible literalism, which appears to be a more or less exclusively American phenomenon, does muddy that distinction somewhat though.

I'm not sure who told you this. There are many Chrsitians who consider the entire bible to be revealed text, inspired by God, without error.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm not sure who told you this. There are many Chrsitians who consider the entire bible to be revealed text, inspired by God, without error.

And I’m not sure who told you that, but I think you’ve misunderstood what a revealed text is, in the sense in which that term applies to the Quran.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And I’m not sure who told you that, but I think you’ve misunderstood what a revealed text is, in the sense in which that term applies to the Quran.

There is more than one way to skin revealed. The fact that Christians have a different idea how revelation works doesn't make their idea any less valid than yours.

 

[RestlessSoul]

There is more than one way to skin revealed. The fact that Christians have a different idea how revelation works doesn't make their idea any less valid than yours.

I'm guessing by Christians, you are referring to US evangelists who, despite their noise and number, are something of a historical aberration, and a long way from any kind of mainstream theological orthodoxy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm guessing by Christians, you are referring to US evangelists who, despite their noise and number, are something of a historical aberration, and a long way from any kind of mainstream theological orthodoxy.

I don't personally know any evangelists. I have known many Christians from many different denominations: Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, etc. That is what my remark was based on.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Sorry. I have no clue what this is. None.

Please stop posting in this thread.

Can you please explain to me why you dont have a clue? What part of what I am saying are you having trouble with comprehending?

Im trying to explain, so please try to listen very carefully Steve.
It is simple. There are layer verses, and there are alignment verses. Alignment verses will sound like nonsense if they are not being understood as alignment verses. The alignment verses position the symbols from the layer verses.

Like I showed you this violent layer verse before which has three different weapons:
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13


I will now show you a layer verse that speaks of three different animals:
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17



Now listen very carefully because this next verse is not nonsense. It is an alignment verse:

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm 68:30


Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

According to words of war and violence it is the cattle that have spears. It is the lowest level.

If you were also listening carefully to me earlier when I mentioned the mountain level then you would understand why the Quran says the mountains shall be as wool ( In the list you could see sheep is in the same position as mountain).


And perhaps you could understand why the Quran says these things about cattle:


Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44

Eat (for yourselves) and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54


Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). 7:179

And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,- 19:86



The Quran also mentions about the fire of Hell, and that they will be granted water like molten Brass. If you look at this list again you can see the Brass:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Muhammad is not speaking of violent threats of Hell. He is doing accurate signs according to the sign language of the Bible prophets.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The OT talks about cattle. And here the NT questions it:

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9

I can see cattle in the corn (symbol alignment positioning).

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Sorry. I have no clue what this is. None.

You want to talk about verses of war and violence. I dont dismiss it, I listened and I acknowledge it.

Like I have now told you about the cattle having spears. But if you need more verification I can show you the goats having swords.
But because it doesnt say it directly in a single verse of the Bible like the verse with cattle and spears I will have to use a bridging symbol to make the connection.

So I will use the Exodus layer of symbols. I can connect the goats with swords with the wilderness symbol.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain


Remember I said earlier the Oil is as the Sword:

As you can see the oil is as the sword:

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm 55:21

Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow

Can you understand the violence that I am trying to speak of?

The Oil tree (other translations say Olive tree) is planted in the Wilderness:
I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: Isaiah 41:19

And just as the sword is in the wilderness (remember the sword is also oil, and the oil tree is in the wilderness)
We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9

The goat is also in the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22



These symbols are in alignment:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Therefore just as the cattle have spears, the goats have swords.

If you still dont understand the violence and war that I am speaking of then I could show you the sheep with bows if you want.

 

[stevecanuck]

I'm not sure who told you this. There are many Chrsitians who consider the entire bible to be revealed text, inspired by God, without error.

The difference is that the Qur'an frequently and explicitly says so, but I don't think the bible does.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is more than one way to skin revealed. The fact that Christians have a different idea how revelation works doesn't make their idea any less valid than yours.

They may think it's revealed, but the bible doesn't say it is. Belief in the Qur'an on the other hand is based on the 'fact' that it is 100% revealed. It's the entire basis of Islam.