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Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
From where? Which sources tell us this and when were they written? Why do you trust them?

Unless you uncritically swallow Islamic theology as historical fact, where is the information coming from?

When one of the world’s leading scholars on a subject, writing in a scholarly volume compiled by another highly respected scholar and published via a respected scholarly publisher, notes elementary details about their subject of expertise, why would you assume they are simply ignorant of basic facts rather than that they might actually have a better and more nuanced understanding of the issue than you do?

I believe Islam must reform, because as it stands, its fundamental tenets are incoherent, and that incoherence understandably breeds mistrust.

So yes, scholars have put a positive spin on the book. But if we take Muslims at their word - which we ought to - the positive spin is inconsistent with one of Islam's core tenets which is that the book is perfect, unalterable, and timeless.

The next key point is that the book declares itself to be easy to understand. So if we ignore the scholarly, apologist's interpretations, and read the book parsimoniously - as it says we should - it's easy to see all the book's divisive and dangerous flaws.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Peace

In my view, an Atheist should not bother themselves too much about Quran except in that which concerns them. What does it offer in terms of proof for God? This is what you should be seeking. This is because if you don't understand what it offers as proof for God, you cannot understand other things it talks about (ie. why per Quran it's evil to disbelieve in God and evil to disbelieve in his Messengers).

You should build foundations strong and clear and build on clear. If you build on ambiguities, then it warned you not to.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Look how the sign is used , then use that same critirea that you used on the Bible verse..

Or you won't use the same standard?

I will use the same criteria, the same standard:

But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. Isaiah 64:7

Heal the lepers:
To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy. Leviticus 14:57

Heal the lame:
The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. Proverbs 26:7

Heal the deaf:
And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. Isaiah 29:18

Heal the blind:
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:14


I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame. Job 29:15
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16


Perhaps just as Jonah being in the fish three days was a sign:

He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection. Quran 37:144
But those endued with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed ye did tarry, within Allah's Decree, to the Day of Resurrection, and this is the Day of Resurrection: but ye - ye were not aware!" Quran 30:56

Three days and resurrection could also be a sign.


So why make the signs appear as foolishness?

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:20-21

Is it so in the wisdom of God he can both show himself and also remain hidden?
Perhaps there is wisdom in the foolishness.
 
Yes, I'm saying it's BS, but only because you said "always".

Something else you are wrong about then :D

If language can be contextually dependent it always is as you need to establish context prior to establishing meaning.

Try giving an example of when meaning is not contextually dependent if you want to understand.

You continue to ignore my question:

How can "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers" mean something other than "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers"?


Hypothetically, if it is irony or hyperbole. Whether the unbelievers in question are all or contextually specific, etc.

While the Quran does regularly use hyperbole, in this case and context, I think it simply means god isn’t a fan of unbelievers (and so we need to define what it means to be a believer before it carries much meaning, etc).

It’s hardly earth shattering that the Quran isn’t positive to unbelievers.
There will be no further response until you actually converse with me.

You don’t really ever converse, just ignore what is said them assert your previous assumptions again.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Peace

In my view, an Atheist should not bother themselves too much about Quran except in that which concerns them. What does it offer in terms of proof for God? This is what you should be seeking. This is because if you don't understand what it offers as proof for God, you cannot understand other things it talks about (ie. why per Quran it's evil to disbelieve in God and evil to disbelieve in his Messengers).

You should build foundations strong and clear and build on clear. If you build on ambiguities, then it warned you not to.

How is "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers" ambiguous?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
... god isn’t a fan of unbelievers ... the Quran isn’t positive to unbelievers.

"Enemy" is a far cry from the underlined. Your attempt to soften the hatred is noted.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah" is a far cry from the underlined. Your attempt to soften the command to kill is noted.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
And..

Surah 3:49:
..and make him a messenger to the Children of Israel ˹to proclaim,˺ ‘I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make for you a bird from clay, breathe into it, and it will become a ˹real˺ bird—by Allah’s Will. I will heal the blind and the leper and raise the dead to life—by Allah’s Will. And I will prophesize what you eat and store in your houses. Surely in this is a sign for you if you ˹truly˺ believe..

Look how the sign is used , then use that same critirea that you used on the Bible verse..

Or you won't use the same standard?

Who is this question directed to?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers" ambiguous?
It's not ambiguous if you contextualize everything else it says. God is still outreaching with his compassion to disbelievers. He is still has Angels assigned to help them and attempt to steer them back to right direction. He expresses intense grief over the fate of disbelievers in Surah Yaseen.

The context is if you take God's Messengers as enemies you are taking Gabriel and Michael as enemies, and if you do so, then God is your enemy in fact. You are opposing not just God's Messenger but God.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Peace

In my view, an Atheist should not bother themselves too much about Quran except in that which concerns them. What does it offer in terms of proof for God? This is what you should be seeking. This is because if you don't understand what it offers as proof for God, you cannot understand other things it talks about (ie. why per Quran it's evil to disbelieve in God and evil to disbelieve in his Messengers).

You should build foundations strong and clear and build on clear. If you build on ambiguities, then it warned you not to.

In my view the Quran has a MASSIVE impact on how humans behave and treat each other. Given that, it's EVERYONE's business to understand what the book says.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It's not ambiguous if you contextualize everything else it says. God is still outreaching with his compassion to disbelievers. He is still has Angels assigned to help them and attempt to steer them back to right direction. He expresses intense grief over the fate of disbelievers in Surah Yaseen.

The context is if you take God's Messengers as enemies you are taking Gabriel and Michael as enemies, and if you do so, then God is your enemy in fact. You are opposing not just God's Messenger but God.

But very early in the book, the 2nd Surah, it says that Allah made disbelievers the way they are? So if he made them this way, how can he grieve for them? That was his choice, according to you, correct?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But very early in the book, the 2nd Surah, it says that Allah made disbelievers the way they are? So if he made them this way, how can he grieve for them? That was his choice, according to you, correct?
God expresses things "By their breaking of the covenant did we harden their hearts...". It's not that God just harden their hearts on whim, but that they broke the covenant and so the result in the system of his moral accounting of deeds is their hearts hardened.

So God makes people accountable to their deeds, but he does not force deeds. There is more of an explanation here:

 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Something else you are wrong about then :D

If language can be contextually dependent it always is as you need to establish context prior to establishing meaning.

That's an absurd absolute.

Try giving an example of when meaning is not contextually dependent if you want to understand.

"Please pass the salt" needs no back story. Most of what people say to each other is stand-alone.

Hypothetically, if it is irony or hyperbole. Whether the unbelievers in question are all or contextually specific, etc.

Statements such as "I hate heavy metal music" automatically means all such music unless otherwise specified.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It's not ambiguous if you contextualize everything else it says. God is still outreaching with his compassion to disbelievers. He is still has Angels assigned to help them and attempt to steer them back to right direction. He expresses intense grief over the fate of disbelievers in Surah Yaseen.

Nope. Allah takes full credit for keeping people in a state of unbelief:

36:8-9 "Verily! We have put on their necks iron collars reaching to chins, so that their heads are forced up. And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see."

The context is if you take God's Messengers as enemies you are taking Gabriel and Michael as enemies, and if you do so, then God is your enemy in fact. You are opposing not just God's Messenger but God.

By "opposing" you mean refusing to believe. We agree that simply not believing in Allah is all it takes for him to be my enemy.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
36:8-9 "Verily! We have put on their necks iron collars reaching to chins, so that their heads are forced up. And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see."

The barriers are from sins though and from the devils' magic. You got to get familiar with the expression in Quran, Quran says "All (good and evil) is from God..", but then says also "Whatever good befalls you it is from God and whatever evil befalls you it is from yourself".


بِالسَنَد المُتَّصِلِ إِلى عِمَادِ الإِسْلامِ وَالمُسْلِمِينَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ يَعْقُوبَ رِضْوَانُ اللهِ عَلَيْهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أبِي نَصْرٍ قَالَ: قَالَ أَبُو الحَسَنِ الرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: قَالَ اللهُ: يَا ابْنَ آدَمَ، بِمَشِيئَتِي كُنْتَ أَنْتَ الَّذِي تَشَاءُ لِنَفْسِكَ مَا تَشَاءُ، وَبِقَوَّتِي أَدَّيْتَ فَرَائِضِي، وَبِنِعْمَتِي قَوِيتَ عَلَى مَعْصِيَتِي. جَعَلْتُكَ سَمِيعاً بَصِيراً قَوِيّاً. مَا أَصَابَكَ مِنْ حَسَنَةٍ فَمِنَ اللهِ، وَمَا أَصَابَكَ مِنْ سَيِّئَةٍ فَمِنْ نَفْسِكَ. وَذَاكَ أَنِّي أَوْلَى بِحَسَنَاتِكَ مِنْكَ، وَأَنْتَ أَوْلَى بِسَيِّئَاتِكَ مِنِّي. وَذَاكَ أَنَّنِي لا أُسْأَلُ عَمَّا أَفْعَلُ وَهُمْ يُسْأَلُونَ.
With my continuous chain of authorities reaching up to the Pillar of Islam and Muslims, Muhammad ibn Ya’qub al-Kulayni (R), from Muhammad ibn Yahya, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Nasr, who said, Abu al-Hasan al Rida (A) said, God has said: “O son of Adam, it is with My will that you are such a being that you will for yourself whatever you will, and it is with My power that you carry out the duties I have prescribed for you, and it is with My bounty that you found the strength to disobey Me. I made you hearing, seeing, and strong. Whatever good visits you is from God, and whatever evil strikes you is from your own self. That, because I have a greater right to your virtues than yourself, and you are worthier of your vices than Me. And hence I am not asked concerning what I do and they are asked.12

There is an explanation: https://www.al-islam.org/forty-hadi...-ruhullah-musawi-khomeini/thirty-fifth-hadith
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
God expresses things "By their breaking of the covenant did we harden their hearts...". It's not that God just harden their hearts on whim, but that they broke the covenant and so the result in the system of his moral accounting of deeds is their hearts hardened.

So God makes people accountable to their deeds, but he does not force deeds. There is more of an explanation here:


That's an interesting interpretation, I hadn't heard before!

So for the sake of discussion, if that's correct, then it seems Allah created a sort of trap? So once a person stops believing, Allah hardens their hearts, making it harder or impossible for them to change their minds?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's an interesting interpretation, I hadn't heard before!

So for the sake of discussion, if that's correct, then it seems Allah created a sort of trap? So once a person stops believing, Allah hardens their hearts, making it harder or impossible for them to change their minds?
Sometimes that is the case, but he also expresses "God does not change a condition of a people until they change what is in themselves". So they can soften their hearts, and if they wish to, and want to change for good, God will help them. But evil actions, have consequences, and harden hearts. Good actions also effect hearts and can shift a soul towards guidance.

This is why sins for believers are feared, because, they can surround the believer's light and extinguish it. But if he fights it off, and holds on to God's rope, then it also the case sins won't harm believers.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The barriers are from sins though and from the devils' magic.

HAH! Only you could turn an iron collar into a benefit. This is just another in the series of verses that say things like "He has set a seal on their hearts". Allah is the enemy of unbelievers and he reminds us of his hatred in hundreds of verses.

You got to get familiar with the expression in Quran, Quran says "All (good and evil) is from God..", but then says also "Whatever good befalls you it is from God and whatever evil befalls you it is from yourself".

Yes, he conveniently takes credit for the good, and deflects for the evil. We agree.
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
I will use the same criteria, the same standard:

But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. Isaiah 64:7

Heal the lepers:
To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy. Leviticus 14:57

Heal the lame:
The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. Proverbs 26:7

Heal the deaf:
And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. Isaiah 29:18

Heal the blind:
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:14


I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame. Job 29:15
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16


Perhaps just as Jonah being in the fish three days was a sign:

He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection. Quran 37:144
But those endued with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed ye did tarry, within Allah's Decree, to the Day of Resurrection, and this is the Day of Resurrection: but ye - ye were not aware!" Quran 30:56

Three days and resurrection could also be a sign.


So why make the signs appear as foolishness?

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:20-21

Is it so in the wisdom of God he can both show himself and also remain hidden?
Perhaps there is wisdom in the foolishness.
By what you say , God intentionally misguided , so he made the misguidence as a cause for guidence.
Read the whole Book , don't go just from verse to verse to make a point.

And at the end , What's the Messiah purpose then? He is the savior , or not ? Because the Muslims also belive that Jesus is the Messiah..

Let's talk now about prophecies in the Old Testament that the Islamic world claims

Deuteronomy 18:
"The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

And i will give you also something interesting to read

--------------------------------------
Narrated 'Aisha:
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light.He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship (Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good relations with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night). Quoted from the Sahih (authentic) Hadith (traditions) of Bukhari, [2], Volume 9, number 111.

Here are additional details from Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106. Words in [ ] type brackets are mine. Words in ( ) brackets are the author's.

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons...."

This explains why Muhammad thought he was demon possessed, or influenced by demons; the Quran in many places reads like typical Arabic poetry.

In "Muhammad at Mecca", by W. M. Watt, pages 40, 41, there are also references that detail Muhammad's suicidal thoughts. Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and you are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "I am Gabriel ,and you are the Prophet of God."

Few people are aware of Muhammad's suicide attempts. Following his initial visitation by a spirit, that claimed to be Gabriel, Muhammad was frantic with fear and attempted suicide. He walked up to the top of a mountain and intended to throw himself off a cliff. This same being that caused his fear then intervened. Later, over the course of up to the next three years, the visitations by this spirit became rare, and Muhammad would then again attempt suicide in a like manner. Again, it was only due to the intervention of this being that Muhammad did not kill himself.

Few Islamic leaders will teach this to their fellow Muslims because it casts a stain upon Muhammad; it brings doubt to his credibility and the credibility of his assumed "prophetic" experience. Some Muslims deny the sources of the story. Other, more intelligent Muslims, knowledgeable about the sources, respond by saying that the shock of the experience caused him to attempt suicide.

However, the shock of the initial experience would have worn off over the next few days, if not weeks, hardly cause for Muhammad's continued suicide attempts over the next years.
--------------------------------------

Muhammad died of ill...

We could also talk about the previous appearences of Gabriel and compare them..
 
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stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Sometimes that is the case, but he also expresses "God does not change a condition of a people until they change what is in themselves". So they can soften their hearts, and if they wish to, and want to change for good, God will help them. But evil actions, have consequences, and harden hearts. Good actions also effect hearts and can shift a soul towards guidance.

This is why sins for believers are feared, because, they can surround the believer's light and extinguish it. But if he fights it off, and holds on to God's rope, then it also the case sins won't harm believers.

How does hardening their hearts and placing blinders on them help? Everything you claim is contrary to the reality that is the Qur'an.
 
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