Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

[stevecanuck]

2:62 Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabaeans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- their wage awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them; neither shall they sorrow

That's why I said "very little" instead of "none". Of the 6,236 verses in the Qur'an (none of which came from any sort of magic sky fairy), there are some that actually have some nuance to them. No surprise. Note the underlined bit. That's the key to knowing it's talking about those from the above mentioned groups who have accepted Islam.

5:69 Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Sabaeans, and those Christians, whosoever believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow

More of the same.

Would you say the above passages requires no context or nuance because its perfectly clear it means good Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabians all get into heaven?

Only if they "believe in God and the Last Day" (accept Islam).

Or does context only matter when it suits your polemics?

Bonus points if you can tell me who the Sabians actually are given that at least some of them appear to be accepted by God.

Here you go: Sabians - Wikipedia

Your inability to name a single sect who considers context unimportant in understanding the Quran is noted.

Your attempt at faux 'gotcha' noted. Name sects that do, and provide your proof.

As is your complete ignorance of the diversity of both historical and contemporary Islamic thought and Quranic interpretation from the 7th c to the present day, and the variety of nuance that has existed in all kinds of Islamic jurisprudence.

If you don't think situational context matters, what do you think the purpose of sirah, hadith and occasions of revelation actually are? Reporting of secular historical facts?

Situational context provides the REASON behind each revelation. It seldom (if ever) changes the NATURE of the revelation. When he says "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers", he thinks that's all you need to know, otherwise he would have expanded on it.

If 'Allah' doesn't give situational context then by definition you don't need to know it. If you really drill down into the logic of it, providing situational context might even appear to limit the application of a given command/proclamation. By leaving it open, it gives it a more generic, on-going flavor applicable to all times and all situations, which is exactly the point of revealing the Qur'an in the first place.

 

[stevecanuck]

Surah Al-Furqan 25:63
The servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say words of peace.

Here is an example where situational context per @Augustus comes into play, at least in the macro sense. This was from Mohamed's Meccan period when he still had very few followers and was therefore in no position to be aggressive. That came later.

However, the Qur'an does indeed say the above, and does so without contextual explanation, therefore a Muslim who wants to live in peace with others can heed this command as long as he can find a way to dismiss all those that speak of hatred and violence.

 

[Augustus]

That's why I said "very little" instead of "none". Of the 6,236 verses in the Qur'an (none of which came from any sort of magic sky fairy), there are some that actually have some nuance to them. No surprise. Note the underlined bit. That's the key to knowing it's talking about those from the above mentioned groups who have accepted Islam.

If that was true then they’d be believers, not Jews, Christians and Sabians. There is no particular reason to read it that way other than prejudice.

Your approach to what needs context and whatever doesn't is "what best suits my personal prejudice".

Only if they "believe in God and the Last Day" (accept Islam).

What you put in brackets is not the most straightforward reading of "believe in God and the Last Day" given it clearly separates groups who meet these criteria.

"Those who believe in the Abrahamic God and his judgement" is far more parsimonious.

Here you go: Sabians - Wikipedia

That says no one really knows who they are.

The point of this is that early Muslims clearly 'forgot' how to understand a fair number of passages of the Quran or the meaning of certain words.

This is why you get occasions of revelation, sirah, etc., to fix the meaning of the Quran.

The other point is that if they forgot the identity of one of the 3 or 4 'people of the book' and forgot the meaning of dozens of passages and words, why should we expect they remembered every detail of Muhammad's life in minute detail and treat it as historical fact?

Your attempt at faux 'gotcha' noted. Name sects that do, and provide your proof.

Sunni Muslims, the proof is in the name.

Also every other group of Muslims who accepts Hadith and Sunnah.

Also Quranist Muslims who contextualise the text via other aspects of the text, itjihad, etc.

Even you consistently put the text into the context of the sunnah and occasions of revelation.

Amazingly, the people who created a vast literature to explain the Quran and multiple schools of jurisprudence to create prescriptive rules based on this do in fact seek to contextualise the Quran to a very significant degree. Astoundingly, a religion that has many different approaches to theology and has changed massively over time based on the same core text does require context and nuance rather than naive literalism.

Situational context provides the REASON behind each revelation. It seldom (if ever) changes the NATURE of the revelation. When he says "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers", he thinks that's all you need to know, otherwise he would have expanded on it.

If 'Allah' doesn't give situational context then by definition you don't need to know it. If you really drill down into the logic of it, providing situational context might even appear to limit the application of a given command/proclamation. By leaving it open, it gives it a more generic, on-going flavor applicable to all times and all situations, which is exactly the point of revealing the Qur'an in the first place.

Nonsense. It frequently changes the meaning of the verse see the night journey, Abu Lahab, Muhammad splitting the moon, etc. for some very simple examples, but it is true throughout.

Or in a different way, when it says Jews take Ezra as the son of God and Christians take Mary as a God.

It is a pretty meaningless approach where you ignore both what Muslims believe and also secular scholarship and just assert your half-baked personal idea of how you think Muslims should read their text.

I can see reasons why people would want to understand Islam from a secular historical context, or that they might try to accurately understand what Muslims believe and why, but what is the value in making up your own strawman version that ignores both and simply judges by whatever makes things look worse?

Here is an example where situational context per @Augustus comes into play, at least in the macro sense. This was from Mohamed's Meccan period when he still had very few followers and was therefore in no position to be aggressive. That came later.

You just said it "seldom (if ever) changes the NATURE of the revelation", and now give an example where situational context very much does.

You also locate it as part of the prophetic sunnah and note that the external chronology is important as regards situational context.

You don't really seem to understand how often you rely on sunnah/occasions of revelation/hadith to change the meaning of the basic text, you certainly did it in your OP.

However, the Qur'an does indeed say the above, and does so without contextual explanation, therefore a Muslim who wants to live in peace with others can heed this command as long as he can find a way to dismiss all those that speak of hatred and violence.

And therin lies the rub.

The Quran cannot be understood by looking at individual passages and trying to interpret them without context because a) it would contradict itself (which is why Muslims had to invent concepts like abrogation) and b) it would make very little sense if you read it as a stand alone text with no external context (even at the basic level it assumes you know the Biblical traditions).

Contextualisation can make verses harsher or more tolerant or clarify a more straightforward reading.

Contextualisation is always important for either secular historical analysis or trying to understand what Muslims actually believe and why.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

By what you say , God intentionally misguided , so he made the misguidence as a cause for guidence.
Read the whole Book , don't go just from verse to verse to make a point.

And at the end , What's the Messiah purpose then? He is the savior , or not ? Because the Muslims also belive that Jesus is the Messiah..

Let's talk now about prophecies in the Old Testament that the Islamic world claims

You mentioned one verse about an example of doing signs. About Jesus healing.

I had said signs are done with words so I showed you some context which helps explain all of the signs that you are talking about Jesus doing are not magic tricks. In this way of words Jesus didnt actually do those things, but he did do those things.

Signs are not talking about doing magic. Magic is an interpretation of how one word can jump to another without an explanation.

 

[Dimi95]

You mentioned one verse about an example of doing signs. About Jesus healing.

I had said signs are done with words so I showed you some context which helps explain all of the signs that you are talking about Jesus doing are not magic tricks. In this way of words Jesus didnt actually do those things, but he did do those things.

Signs are not talking about doing magic. Magic is an interpretation of how one word can jump to another without an explanation.

Forget about signs and forget about context

Let me ask you something
You are sitting somewhere in the park and some guy is approaching you with knife in his hand.What will you do?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Forget about signs and forget about context

Let me ask you something
You are sitting somewhere in the park and some guy is approaching you with knife in his hand.What will you do?

Is it possible this man is in the park looking for some medicinal herbs?

 

[Dimi95]

Is it possible this man is in the park looking for some medicinal herbs?

You showed your answer with your question

Only small peace of me tough that you would amswer honestly , but i tough myself - why not i would give it a try.

Nevermind , nice sharing toughts

Gos bless You.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You showed your answer with your question

Only small peace of me tough that you would amswer honestly , but i tough myself - why not i would give it a try.

Nevermind , nice sharing toughts

Gos bless You.

Yes I showed my answer with a question. Because that is what i would do, question it rather than jumping to unverified conclusions.

This answer seems to be not what you were expecting so implying that I am just being dishonest. Maybe you just thought wrong.

One day I was at the beach and had some things I didnt want to lose so I hid them in the sand. When I returned a lady was alone topless sunbathing right where I needed to go. I couldnt wait so just walked straight up to get my stuff which was right beside her about a metre away. She probably thought I was walking to her until she realised my focus was not on her. I didnt look at her, just said excuse me I have some things here to get then i left.

Sometimes things are not what you think they are.

 

[Dimi95]

Yes I showed my answer with a question. Because that is what i would do, question it rather than jumping to unverified conclusions.

This answer seems to be not what you were expecting so implying that I am just being dishonest. Maybe you just thought wrong.

One day I was at the beach and had some things I didnt want to lose so I hid them in the sand. When I returned a lady was alone topless sunbathing right where I needed to go. I couldnt wait so just walked straight up to get my stuff which was right beside her about a metre away. She probably thought I was walking to her until she realised my focus was not on her. I didnt look at her, just said excuse me I have some things here to get then i left.

Sometimes things are not what you think they are.

Exactly, but it doesn't change the fact.

I could've rephrased the question With just adding something for example , "the guy had a black mask,he was suspicious and he was running towards you"
It will not change the fact that you will change your normal attituide.And you do that just by apsorbing feeling from the brain.

I am confronting you with something that could happen to you if you see the world today as it is - facing Reality.
You acknowledge feelings with your brain but you don't understand that the source of life in you is the hearth.

And when your hearth stops , you have no more life.Even if the brain is still alive , you will never open your eyes , you will lose life and that's it.

If the brain stops working , 99 % i will say that you would die also, you can check this with science

Let me give you something from that 1 % that is left.Real story and This is called miracle:

"Just days before Drew Kohn’s 23rd birthday, he was hit by a car as he rode on his motorcycle. The impact was so intense, it actually knocked off Drew’s helmet and shoe.

It’s the kind of incident where no one is expected to survive. But Drew’s near-fatal motorcycle accident was merely the start to an incredibly inspiring modern-day miracle story!

GRIM DIAGNOSIS SETS THE STAGE FOR A MODERN-DAY MIRACLE​

Drew suffered many serious injuries, only some of which included a traumatic brain injury, two punctured lungs, a broken shoulder, and a crushed pelvis. Doctors had zero hope for any kind of recovery.

"He was declared brain dead," said his mother, Yolanda Osborne Kohn. “He looked like death, smelled like death and responded like death.”

For 244 days, Drew Kohn lay in a coma unable to do even the smallest task. Doctors said that even if by some miracle he awoke, he’d never walk or talk again.

“We were told… if he woke up that we should not expect any participation in the world [as] we know it,” Yolanda explained.

But Drew’s mother refused to believe it. Each day was a battle and she leaned on her faith to get through it.

FAITH IN THINGS UNSEEN​

For 8 months, Yolanda prayed — not just for her son’s survival, but his healing, too. Lots of other people prayed too. And all that prayer culminated into a modern-day miracle when Drew Kohn finally woke up!

“Your prayers count,” she says. “That’s what I want people to know is that my family is so grateful.”

Even after Drew woke up, he couldn’t speak right away. He went home to recover, and one day, his mom asked him how he was doing, just like she did every day. But this time, he stunned her by replying.

“Mom, I’m okay,” he said, followed by, “I love you, mom.”

It was a huge moment and one the doctors didn’t ever think would happen. And it’s just one of many incredible accomplishments in this modern-day miracle story!

Yolanda Osborne Kohn wasn’t the only one relying on God through her son’s recovery. Drew turned to his Heavenly Father for strength, too.

“One emotional point was he asked me where’s my Bible. . . He said, ‘I want to read Psalm 100’,” Drew’s mom recalled. “I gave it to him and he started reading and when he read Psalm 57 he was crying and I was crying. It was just so powerful — like you can’t say his mind is not there. Not only did he ask to read a certain scripture but there when you’re saying, the Lord is my refuge. Who will I run to? Who is my strong tower?”

WITH GOD, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE​

Drew Kohn kept fighting, day after day. He remained persistent in his rehab and therapy, pushing the boundaries. And he continued to recover in ways his doctors never thought possible!

"He's not supposed to be able to be a thinking person,” Yolanda explains. “He is not supposed to be able to count money, fill up the gas tank, go to the refrigerator and microwave his own food."

But Drew Kohn, a modern-day miracle, can do all of these things. All because of God and the unwavering faith of his mother.

“This is not beating the odds. This is Drew’s faith walk,” Yolanda says. “He has a story to tell — he has a testimony. So he’s a walking testimony.”

And after all Drew has been through, this inspirational overcomer wants to share his story as a way of encouraging others.

"My story represents never giving up hope,” he says. “All things are possible when God is in it. I just would love to tell others to never give up.”

Source:Son’s 1st Words After 244 Days Brain Dead Were ‘I Love You Mom’ - You’ve Got To See Him Now

When you askyourselfs what are Christians , this is what we are.. That's how we belive.That's how we see God.
And he answers our prayers.

I don't want you to take that 1 % , but remember it, it is enough for me.
Everyone goes their own way , for me it is enough that i played my part as his student.

1 Corinthians 14:22:
"Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers."


And after this there is no point to talk.

I leave you in peace

God bless you

 

[Muffled]

Certainly more violent if that's what you call realistic

I believe a healthy dose of the news will reveal what this world is like.

 

[Muffled]

Wise sayings? I don't think so. It's filled with commands and proclamations, but not what you would call 'sayings'.

I suppose people see in a book what they wish to see but I am saying there isn't much in the way of narrative.

 

[ChristineM]

I believe a healthy dose of the news will reveal what this world is like.

Im not talking about this world, im taking about a couple of books that have been compared.
How people interpret those books is the thing.

 

[stevecanuck]

I suppose people see in a book what they wish to see but I am saying there isn't much in the way of narrative.

If by "narrative" you mean story-telling, then I agree. The vast majority of the Qur'an, unlike the bible, is proclamation and command.

 

[Muffled]

This is just Allah completing his thought from the previous verse. He's telling Christians and Jews to also accept the third installment (the Qur'an) of his revelations.

I believe I have judged the Qu'ran by what God has revealed to me. I believe acceptance is relative. For instance A Christian will obey Jesus before even thinking about obeying the Qu'ran.

 

[Link]

If by "narrative" you mean story-telling, then I agree. The vast majority of the Qur'an, unlike the bible, is proclamation and command.

Most of the Quran is reflective philosophy. Even in the stories, the way it does, it says it but then philosophically reflects over the issue.

It does not have all the detailed stories of the Bible, but if it did, and that was it's style, it would be mostly copy paste with some corrections right? Then we would never hear the end of it of how it copied the Bible.

Rather, it's reflective over the Bible. A lot of it agrees with, a lot of it does not.

This also useful for analyzing the lives and hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a). It teaches this way how to decipher truth from falsehood.

 

[Muffled]

Im not talking about this world, im taking about a couple of books that have been compared.
How people interpret those books is the thing.

I believe I am saying the news is real to us now while the books are not but the Bible reflects current reality better than the Qu'ran.

 

[Muffled]

Most of the Quran is reflective philosophy. Even in the stories, the way it does, it says it but then philosophically reflects over the issue.

It does not have all the detailed stories of the Bible, but if it did, and that was it's style, it would be mostly copy paste with some corrections right? Then we would never hear the end of it of how it copied the Bible.

Rather, it's reflective over the Bible. A lot of it agrees with, a lot of it does not.

This also useful for analyzing the lives and hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a). It teaches this way how to decipher truth from falsehood.

God will sometimes repeat a lesson but most of the time He expects people to listen to what was said before. He will sometimes add more informatin to a story like the cloning of Adam coming by way of a blood clot.

 

[Muffled]

The Qur'an must be accepted as God's final revelations as given to His final prophet, Mohamed. Anything less than complete acceptance of that makes one a disbeliever. I think we agree on this.

I believe as Christian that won't matter. We are already forgiven even if we do not believe everything He says. For a Muslim that isn't as clear cut but I think it applies also to those who believe in Allah.

 

[Link]

God will sometimes repeat a lesson but most of the time He expects people to listen to what was said before. He will sometimes add more informatin to a story like the cloning of Adam coming by way of a blood clot.

The Quran is calculatedly repetitive. It repeats the same things, with different context, different reflections, and add details in some places not in others. It also paraphrases itself in a lot different ways.

Paraphrasing the same things over and over again is the bread and butter of Quran. There are many unique mentions, especially Surah Baqara, which has a lot of unique things, but repetition occurs in Quran a lot.

Some people see this is a bad thing. It's one of the criticism of disbelievers often. However, if you pay attention to similarities as well differences, you will find in that lies the subtle way God makes Quran contextualize everything it says, preserves it's meanings, and opens doors leading to other doors in Quran.

It's eloquence lies in that, it's going to emphasize the same message again and again, and again, but differently, with subtle dimensions, aspects or emphasis differently Surah to Surah.

The smallest Surahs near the end, summarize entire themes found through out Quran that have been repeated. Their eloquence is due to that.

If it were not for how much Quran repeated Tawhid, Surah Ikhlaas would not been what it is. It is there and ultra eloquent for it's relationship to the rest of Quran as well as to how the Quran ends with the small Surahs.

Imamate of Auli-Mohammad (s) is clear. All you have to do is contextualize Quran with Quran, and let it paraphrase the same truth over and over again and put the words about Auli-Mohammad (s) in Quran in context with similar words of past chosen families and leaders of guidance.

 

[ChristineM]

I believe I am saying the news is real to us now while the books are not but the Bible reflects current reality better than the Qu'ran.

Computer analysis shows the bible to be the more violent of the two books. Thats all my posting on this thread is about

However Christians have had an extra 500 years to get religious blood lust out of their system.

I understand though that there is plenty of christian terrorism going on in africa, india, even in america. Not reported so much on western news services for fear and upsetting their christian following but freely available on google.

Personally I've been either mentally or physically hurt (or both) 4 times in my life. Each time by practicing christians following their interpretation of the bible. Never once by a Muslim.

That's not to say islam is any better or worse, its just my experience