Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

[stevecanuck]

I believe I have judged the Qu'ran by what God has revealed to me. I believe acceptance is relative. For instance A Christian will obey Jesus before even thinking about obeying the Qu'ran.

Right, which would make such a person an unbeliever.

 

[Dimi95]

Most of the Quran is reflective philosophy. Even in the stories, the way it does, it says it but then philosophically reflects over the issue.

It does not have all the detailed stories of the Bible, but if it did, and that was it's style, it would be mostly copy paste with some corrections right? Then we would never hear the end of it of how it copied the Bible.

Rather, it's reflective over the Bible. A lot of it agrees with, a lot of it does not.

This also useful for analyzing the lives and hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a). It teaches this way how to decipher truth from falsehood.

I will ask you something simple and also wise ,don't answer me , just think about it yourself.
Why is the need to compare it with the Bible?

Your wright to say that is reflective philosophy died that day when Caliphn Uthman recalled all the variant manuscripts, destroyed them by fire, and issued an official, standardized version according to his reading.

You can't be the prosecutor , the judge and the jury at the same time.
You come to the world with: This is "power over power" , take what we have, read and judge,that's the last word of god,for all human kind.
That's not trial , that is intentional execution.

Freedom is choice , and you don't have that in Islam.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away."

Tell me , what do you like more , to love or to fear?

Computer analysis shows the bible to be the more violent of the two books. Thats all my posting on this thread is about

However Christians have had an extra 500 years to get religious blood lust out of their system.

I understand though that there is plenty of christian terrorism going on in africa, india, even in america. Not reported so much on western news services for fear and upsetting their christian following but freely available on google.

Personally I've been either mentally or physically hurt (or both) 4 times in my life. Each time by practicing christians following their interpretation of the bible. Never once by a Muslim.

That's not to say islam is any better or worse, its just my experience

I Can understand why you think so , really i do.

The problem with most of the Christians is they read only little and they think they know everything.

Whoever has read the Bible whole , from Genesis to Revelation , word to word - meaning to meaning , message to message won't talk to you in a violent way.
The two things you recive when you find Christ are love and humbelness.
A humble man will never be agressive to you , never.It's against the teachings.
And you will be in Christ whole when you accept every teaching.
If someone "slaps" you , you give him the other side , you don't respond.

We teach love , not fear.

 

[ChristineM]

Whoever has read the Bible whole ,

I've read the bible whole, front to back, the KJV was the second dook i ever read.
I was looking for reasons the congregation of my church mocked and ridicled me for being different. Its all in there the reasons some Christians can he horrible people.

I found it to be extremely violent, reading it began my journey to atheism.

I've read 2 more since. Although different they all contain the same message, reject difference, kill unbelievers at gods command, rape and sex slavery of conquered women is fine, steal other people property.

Sure some christians are ok, my b st friend is a fevout christian. But many dont give s **** to non Christians because god is on their side

 

[Dimi95]

I've read the bible whole, front to back, the KJV was the second dook i ever read.
I was looking for reasons the congregation of my church mocked and ridicled me for being different. Its all in there the reasons some Christians can he horrible people.

I found it to be extremely violent, reading it began my journey to atheism.

I've read 2 more since. Although different they all contain the same message, reject difference, kill unbelievers at gods command, rape and sex slavery of conquered women is fine, steal other people property.

Sure some christians are ok, my b st friend is a fevout christian. But many dont give s **** to non Christians because god is on their side

Orthodox teachings are very different , Eastern specificly,and Orthodox is most demanding,above all.
Thay missed to tell you one thing - God doesn't chose side.He takes you the way you are and perfects you in good
How about that ?

 

[ChristineM]

Orthodox teachings are very different , Eastern specificly,and Orthodox is most demanding,above all.
Thay missed to tell you one thing - God doesn't chose side.He takes you the way you are and perfects you in good
How about that ?

Im talking protestant...

Only if you confirm to the christian norm and worship the christian way and don't have any problems that differentiate you from the christian crown. If you don't fit the picture then the Christian god will ..
Well you've read the bible...

 

[Dimi95]

Im talking protestant...

Only if you confirm to the christian norm and worship the christian way and don't have any problems that differentiate you from the christian crown. If you don't fit the picture then the Christian god will ..
Well you've read the bible...

And when you take the point , you don't think of the circumstences.
He has the same right as me , but not the power to say : That is Christ.
I must except the equality , that's what we fight for in Orthodox.
I am telling you , there is a better way of understanding it , live it , and better way to teach it?
You just need to let someone explain it.
Why are you judging based on what you know , when maybe there is something you don't?

We , Christians are here where we are , because of the different views

But there is hope..
I see something in the present , a little effort by some people , and you will see the change in the next 20 years.
I want you to take me on this word.

 

[ChristineM]

And when you take the point , you don't think of the circumstences.
He has the same right as me , but not the power to say : That is Christ.
I must except the equality , that's what we fight for in Orthodox.
I am telling you , there is a better way of understanding it , live it , and better way to teach it?
You just need to let someone explain it.
Why are you judging based on what you know , when maybe there is something you don't?

We , Christians are here where we are , because of the different views

But there is hope..
I see something in the present , a little effort by some people , and you will see the change in the next 20 years.
I want you to take me on this word.

Ive lived it and was rejected by it, sorry but they lost me almost 40 years ago, no way will i return to the hypocrisy.

You are here because of the same views. I am different and know the results of that in Christianity.

It is true that despite the decrease in numbers in Europe and America that Christianity is increasing in number and is projected to do so until at least 2050. But the world population is increasing faster so overall the percentage of christians is on the decline.

 

[Dimi95]

Ive lived it and was rejected by it, sorry but they lost me almost 40 years ago, no way will i return to the hypocrisy.

You are here because of the same views. I am different and know the results of that in Christianity.

It is true that despite the decrease in numbers in Europe and America that Christianity is increasing in number and is projected to do so until at least 2050. But the world population is increasing faster so overall the percentage of christians is on the decline.

Exactly
Islam is the fastest growing religion - biologicly.
Christianity on the other side is strong in converting , at least double the number.

For Christ is never late..
I understand your view and i can say that you have a strong reason - when i face reality and where we are at the moment.

But what can few do against many , if they are rejected like this?
We see hope everywhere , and what can we do , if we don't try?
You think that the world that we live today is a good place.No it's not , because we let it be like this.
Who runs the world ? That is where we should start.

I say to you , you ask everything you want, but you ask the Bible and Christ , don't let other people influence on what Christianity means.Take it yourself.
I have understood that every person is equal in telling what Christ is.So what others said to you , is the opinion of the people so important for you instead of what you tought of it?

And do i deserve to be threated the same way they threated you?

 

[ChristineM]

Exactly
Islam is the fastest growing religion - biologicly.
Christianity on the other side is strong in converting , at least double the number.

For Christ is never late..
I understand your view and i can say that you have a strong reason - when i face reality and where we are at the moment.

But what can few do against many , if they are rejected like this?
We see hope everywhere , and what can we do , if we don't try?
You think that the world that we live today is a good place.No it's not , because we let it be like this.
Who runs the world ? That is where we should start.

Religion has tried running the world with disaster after disaster and millions of people killed.

And look as the horror or Sharia countries. That's religion for you.

So long as its not religion running the world it will almost certainly be a better place.

 

[Dimi95]

Religion has tried running the world with disaster after disaster and millions of people killed.

And look as the horror or Sharia countries. That's religion for you.

So long as its not religion running the world it will almost certainly be a better place.

I would agree on your last sentence , but only in present,not for the future.
I would say that relegion as relegion is not the problem , but how the religion is brought.And sadly here lays the problem , the authority of the religion.
It has aggressive approach , that's why you rejected it.

 

[Link]

Tell me , what do you like more , to love or to fear?

Love, but, they work together.

Imam Jaffar (a) explains how:

The intimate conversation of the gnostics possesses three roots: fear, hope and love. Fear is the branch of knowledge; hope is the branch of certainty, and love is the branch of gnosis (ma'rifah) . The proof of fear is flight; the proof of hope is quest, and the proof of love is preferring the Beloved over all others.

When knowledge is confirmed in truthfulness, he fears. When fear is genuine, he flees. When he flees, he is saved. When he sees the light of certainty in the heart, he sees overflowing favour. When the vision of overflowing favour is firm, there is hope. When he feels the sweetness of belief in hope, he seeks. When he has success in the quest, he finds. When the light of gnosis is manifested in his heart, the breeze of love stirs, he settles in the shadow of the Beloved, prefers the Beloved over all others, follows His commands and avoids His prohibitions, and chooses them over everything else. When he perseveres towards intimacy with the Beloved while carrying out His commands and avoiding His prohibitions, he has reached the spirit of intimate communion and nearness.

These three roots are like the sanctuary, the mosque, and the Ka'bah: whoever enters the Sacred Precinct is safe from people. If a person enters the mosque, his senses are safe from being used in disobedience, and if a person enters the Ka'bah, his heart is safe from being occupied with anything other than the remembrance of Allah.

Take heed, O believer! If you are in a state in which you are content to meet death, then thank Allah for His grace and protection. If it is other than that, then move from it with sound resolution, and have regret for that part of your life which passed in heedlessness. Seek Allah's help in purifying your outward nature of wrong actions and cleanse your inward being from faults. Cut the shackles of heedlessness from your heart, and extinguish the fire of desires in your soul.

 

[ChristineM]

I would agree on your last sentence , but only in present,not for the future.

Clairvoyance is a wonderful thing

I would say that relegion as relegion is not the problem ,

I would say it is the problem.

 

[Dimi95]

Love, but, they work together.

Imam Jaffar (a) explains how:

The intimate conversation of the gnostics possesses three roots: fear, hope and love. Fear is the branch of knowledge; hope is the branch of certainty, and love is the branch of gnosis (ma'rifah) . The proof of fear is flight; the proof of hope is quest, and the proof of love is preferring the Beloved over all others.

When knowledge is confirmed in truthfulness, he fears. When fear is genuine, he flees. When he flees, he is saved. When he sees the light of certainty in the heart, he sees overflowing favour. When the vision of overflowing favour is firm, there is hope. When he feels the sweetness of belief in hope, he seeks. When he has success in the quest, he finds. When the light of gnosis is manifested in his heart, the breeze of love stirs, he settles in the shadow of the Beloved, prefers the Beloved over all others, follows His commands and avoids His prohibitions, and chooses them over everything else. When he perseveres towards intimacy with the Beloved while carrying out His commands and avoiding His prohibitions, he has reached the spirit of intimate communion and nearness.

These three roots are like the sanctuary, the mosque, and the Ka'bah: whoever enters the Sacred Precinct is safe from people. If a person enters the mosque, his senses are safe from being used in disobedience, and if a person enters the Ka'bah, his heart is safe from being occupied with anything other than the remembrance of Allah.

Take heed, O believer! If you are in a state in which you are content to meet death, then thank Allah for His grace and protection. If it is other than that, then move from it with sound resolution, and have regret for that part of your life which passed in heedlessness. Seek Allah's help in purifying your outward nature of wrong actions and cleanse your inward being from faults. Cut the shackles of heedlessness from your heart, and extinguish the fire of desires in your soul.

I agree
But it doesn't overpower "perfected in love"

Why do you need fear so you can love , when you can avoid the first one? Love is independent from Fear, two different feelings.. Or Love is dependent on Fear? They work , but they don't have to..


That's like when you are raising a kid and they do something stupid and you immedietly punish him and he will fear you in the future.And then you will buy him ice-cream and everything will be good aggain.
But that's the easyest way , and why do we choose the easy way? Because we don't want to bother ourselfs for something better..
We are so focused on the way to the result , that we don't pay attention on our actions..

When you put such things in life , the result is different.
I know that as written - you see it like - he has a point, and he is speaking wise.

But reality is tough to procces.

You miss small details and details are crucial in understanding , a little advice - try to learn something out of the box.

Peace

 

[Dimi95]

Clairvoyance is a wonderful thing



I would say it is the problem.

Values are also wonderful thing.

That's why there are different views.

But i see a problem in the problem.
And that's how i understand why you say it is a problem

 

[ChristineM]

Values are also wonderful thing.

That's why there are different views.

But i see a problem in the problem.
And that's how i understand why you say it is a problem

Values don't tell the future

The problem is that people follow the religion, it is not the religion that follows the people.

 

[Dimi95]

Values don't tell the future

The problem is that people follow the religion, it is not the religion that follows the people.

Yes , but values can change it.

Tell me what's your view of the world?
What do you think is best?

 

[ChristineM]

Yes , but values can change it.

Tell me what's your view of the world?
What do you think is best?

Bof!... That's French for meh! but with more feeling. Values are great personally but they are not going to have much sway on a dictatorship.

I don't particularly hold a view of the world, it's to big and politically varied and a mess but it's improving. When i was a child there were usually around 80 to 100 wars or conflicts going on at any one time, as of today there are just 32. I count that as a doubtful win.

As for best, a democratic republic.

 

[Dimi95]

Bof!... That's French for meh! but with more feeling. Values are great personally but they are not going to have much sway on a dictatorship.

I don't particularly hold a view of the world, it's to big and politically varied and a mess but it's improving. When i was a child there were usually around 80 to 100 wars or conflicts going on at any one time, as of today there are just 32. I count that as a doubtful win.

As for best, a democratic republic.

When you see what is dictatorship , the values that we stand for doesn't have anything in common with it.
So we use values to opose dictatorship , regardless of the outcome.
Otherwise , value would be meaningless.
We use good to opose bad..

Democracy - that's also plus one thing that we have in common.

Nice sharing toughts , i think that we stand for equality , and that's good.

 

[ChristineM]

When you see what is dictatorship , the values that we stand for doesn't have anything in common with it.
So we use values to opose dictatorship , regerdless of the outcome.
Otherwise , value would be meaningless.
We use good to opose bad..

Democracy - that's also plus one thing that we have in common.

Nice sharing toughts , i think that we stand for equality , and that's good.

And the dictatorship ignores your opposition, or silences it.

Also consider
Maybe your values are not the same as other people's who have their own set of values and consider your values inferior. Is is good to use your values to oppose them?


You are completely entitled to your values, your equality, your faith... Just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

so share your views...

and I'll read them tomorrow, its midnight and time for sleep... Nice chatting with you

 

[Dimi95]

And the dictatorship ignores your opposition, or silences it.

Also consider
Maybe your values are not the same as other people's who have their own set of values and consider your values inferior. Is is good to use your values to oppose them?


You are completely entitled to your values, your equality, your faith... Just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

so share your views...

and I'll read them tomorrow, its midnight and time for sleep... Nice chatting with you

Yes , it has the power , but i am not only for "me" , i am for "we" more then for "me".Because when there are more with similar values at least, the chance to opose is greater.

What can i do when i am showing , doing and feeling the values that way , and someone thinks that is inferior? What is my guilt in that..

Why is the nessecity to think something is inferior when it's good?
That's what we are focused more - on the bad , instead of the good.
We show more oftenly bad , then good.

If i see something good in other views , why i should not accept it and take it as benefit and learn something from it?
I said here i think few times that i lead myself when i speak about such things with : i Win or i Learn, and i mean it.

It lead us to something simple : What do we actaully seek?