Concerning God: What do you mean, when you say, "I know for certain that he does/does not exist."?

[Quintessence]

This question is directed at people that would say that they know for certain that God exists or does not exist. If you do not fit in that category, then this question is not for you.

Did you not read my earlier post?

But to give a specific example, since I suspect you created this thread to specifically address god-concepts, my gods are one of those things I'm certain of.

 

[outhouse]

In other news, the sun may not even exist...

Reducing it to the subjective, seems very obvious to me.

The sun is a fact.

Your faith existing outside of faith is not.

 

[Quintessence]

Reducing it to the subjective, seems very obvious to me.

The sun is a fact.

Your faith existing outside of faith is not.

Huhwut? I have no idea what it is that you're attempting to communicate to me here. Clarify if you so desire.

 

[Akivah]

Not looking for science, perhaps some logic. So, how do you know which revelations are valid? Our Muslim friends also have generational and national revelations. Why do you accept one set over another? Another question could be why do you reject other revelations?

I consider myself to be a very logical person.

In my case, I originally believed that I had scientific and logical reasons to prove that G-d didn't exist. I wasn't looking for a replacement or a better god. During my life, I had experiences that slowly convinced me that I was wrong. When I finally reached my tipping point, I became convinced that G-d exists. It was just natural that it would be the G-d in accordance with Judaism. No other religion's god makes the slightest bit of sense to me. The more I experience, learn, and read, the more certain I become.

 

[tkdrocks]

And I was pointing out that saying that you know something that you cannot possibly claim to have knowledge of is absurd. It's cool to discuss what people believe and especially why they believe it, but absolutely nobody knows that any gods exist, that's just the way it works.

You do realize that I agree with you on this, correct? I am attempting to use a Socratic method of asking questions to help others realize this without making statements like, "You don't know what the hell knowledge is." or stating that something is absurd. My goal is to help people find that out for themselves. Make sense?

 

[tkdrocks]

I consider myself to be a very logical person.

In my case, I originally believed that I had scientific and logical reasons to prove that G-d didn't exist. I wasn't looking for a replacement or a better god. During my life, I had experiences that slowly convinced me that I was wrong. When I finally reached my tipping point, I became convinced that G-d exists. It was just natural that it would be the G-d in accordance with Judaism. No other religion's god makes the slightest bit of sense to me. The more I experience, learn, and read, the more certain I become.

I would suppose that this is a function of how you were raised. In my opinion, most people stay within their comfort zone when picking a God/Religion. Human nature, I suppose.

 

[Hawkins]

I would suppose that this is a function of how you were raised. In my opinion, most people stay within their comfort zone when picking a God/Religion. Human nature, I suppose.

Ironically, it remains your own faith to believe so.

That being said, humans basically rely on human witnessing to get to a truth. While there are those kinds of truths which can only be reached by human witnessing.

 

[tkdrocks]

Ironically, it remains your own faith to believe so.

That being said, humans basically rely on human witnessing to get to a truth. While there are those kinds of truths which can only be reached by human witnessing.

Interesting perspective. Do you have any other examples (outside of religion) where we rely solely on human witnesses to obtain truth? It could very well be that way, I just am unable to come up with an example.

Cheers.

 

[Nietzsche]

I consider myself to be a very logical person.

In my case, I originally believed that I had scientific and logical reasons to prove that G-d didn't exist. I wasn't looking for a replacement or a better god. During my life, I had experiences that slowly convinced me that I was wrong. When I finally reached my tipping point, I became convinced that G-d exists. It was just natural that it would be the G-d in accordance with Judaism. No other religion's god makes the slightest bit of sense to me. The more I experience, learn, and read, the more certain I become.

So what of someone who goes through that same process but comes out the other end with Odin and the Aesir & Vanir rather than YHWH?

 

[Akivah]

So what of someone who goes through that same process but comes out the other end with Odin and the Aesir & Vanir rather than YHWH?

What of it? Everyone has their own unique experiences and knowledge. I believe there are even scientists that disagree with each other.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

(I am sure that this question has been asked before on this forum, but the members come and go. So, I think it would be fun to serve it up again.)

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language.

Agreed.

So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

It must mean "without any possibility whatsoever for error," correct?

Does it mean that you are fully convinced?

Apparently so. Imagine a Bible that came with a guarantee. It must be like that.

Q. - Has anyone ever had the cojones to print a Bible with a money-back guarantee?

Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)

Individual personal experiences don't qualify as evidence. They're just additional claims.

Having said that, here is a resource for people struggling to write out their religious testimony.

Sadly, they don't include a simple, "fill-in-the-blanks" form letter. It'd save a lot of time.

Is it just strong faith?

Is "strong faith" just another name for 100% certainty? Isn't faith typically viewed as belief without the guarantee of 100% certainty?

Something else?

Setting religious convictions aside, I'll admit that it's difficult to conjure up any scenarios where statements of absolute certainty based upon zero evidence aren't typically classified as some sort of delusion or mental illness.

"But I really am Napoleon! Beyond a doubt! Honestly!"

 

[NulliuSINverba]

What of it? Everyone has their own unique experiences and knowledge. I believe there are even scientists that disagree with each other.

Are you trying to claim that they disagree with each other based on unique personal experiences?

 

[Akivah]

Are you trying to claim that they disagree with each other based on unique personal experiences?

Among other things.

 

[tkdrocks]

What of it? Everyone has their own unique experiences and knowledge. I believe there are even scientists that disagree with each other.

Sure, scientists disagree on many things, but not established facts (things they are certain about). There is not a lot of argument over what temperature water boils at or the speed of light. In this case, facts are verifiable, reproducible, and falsifiable. If these weren't the case, they wouldn't be facts.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Among other things.

Why not cite a few examples?

 

[Akivah]

Why not cite a few examples?

You mean, other reasons for disagreements? Their learning and knowledge, the place they learned it from, their personalities, their upbringing are some other things.

 

[Katzpur]

(I am sure that this question has been asked before on this forum, but the members come and go. So, I think it would be fun to serve it up again.)

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

• Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
• Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
• Is it just strong faith?
• Something else?

I will share my thoughts later, but I thought that I would just get the ball rolling first.

To me, it means you are fully convinced. Now as to by what means you are fully convinced, that's another matter. When it comes to spiritual matters, I almost never say, "I know." Being a theist, I suppose it's possible for someone to "know," but I'd say that 99.9999% of those who say they do really don't. They simply have a very, very strong faith. I could say that "I know God exists," but do I really? Well, there is something inside of me that says, "Yes, I do." Until I can provide proof of His existence to a non-believer, though, I'd be strongly inclined to simply say, "I am convinced that God exists; it's a gut feeling I have tried unsuccessfully to deny, but I don't expect my belief to influence you in the slightest."

 

[Katzpur]

No, it means you don't know what the hell knowledge is.

I think that all depends upon what kind of knowledge we're talking about. I know that I love my husband. I know that the feelings I have for him are genuine and not pretend. Knowledge of other kinds of things, however, is a different matter.

 

[Cephus]

I think that all depends upon what kind of knowledge we're talking about. I know that I love my husband. I know that the feelings I have for him are genuine and not pretend. Knowledge of other kinds of things, however, is a different matter.

I could just as well argue that you BELIEVE you love your husband and that you have no knowledge. Now granted, we do have the technical know-how to measure emotion, such that we could put you into an MRI and measure the parts of your brain that are active when you see a picture of your husband and that would indeed be evidence and thus, you could make a claim of knowledge. In this particular case though, because you're just making a claim about your internal emotional state, so long as I thought you were being honest and rational about it (how many teenagers say they love their boyfriend or girlfriend and don't really mean it), I'd accept that as presented.

However, that has nothing to do with things external to your emotional state. You cannot say you KNOW that Godzilla is real, or that you KNOW that you were abducted by an alien. Those are things that require more than a simple assertion. The same goes for claims of knowledge about gods.

 

[George-ananda]

Concerning God: What do you mean, when you say, "I know for certain that he does/does not exist."?


Certainty can never mean 'perfect certainty'. The best we can say is 'beyond reasonable doubt'.