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Concerning God: What do you mean, when you say, "I know for certain that he does/does not exist."?

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Concerning God: What do you mean, when you say, "I know for certain that he does/does not exist."?

Certainty can never mean 'perfect certainty'. The best we can say is 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

That's not certainty. Besides, how do you decide what is beyond reasonable doubt in the first place? What is reasonable for one person doesn't seem to be reasonable for others. If it's all just subjective, you're not talking about certainty, you're talking about opinion.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That's not certainty. Besides, how do you decide what is beyond reasonable doubt in the first place? What is reasonable for one person doesn't seem to be reasonable for others. If it's all just subjective, you're not talking about certainty, you're talking about opinion.
Note that I was arguing against the word 'certainty' if we are being technical and replacing it with 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

We each determine what is 'beyond reasonable doubt' to us (like in a criminal jury trial). Yes, different people may disagree when there is no undeniable proof.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I could just as well argue that you BELIEVE you love your husband and that you have no knowledge. Now granted, we do have the technical know-how to measure emotion, such that we could put you into an MRI and measure the parts of your brain that are active when you see a picture of your husband and that would indeed be evidence and thus, you could make a claim of knowledge. In this particular case though, because you're just making a claim about your internal emotional state, so long as I thought you were being honest and rational about it (how many teenagers say they love their boyfriend or girlfriend and don't really mean it), I'd accept that as presented.

However, that has nothing to do with things external to your emotional state. You cannot say you KNOW that Godzilla is real, or that you KNOW that you were abducted by an alien. Those are things that require more than a simple assertion. The same goes for claims of knowledge about gods.
I agree.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Note that I was arguing against the word 'certainty' if we are being technical and replacing it with 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

We each determine what is 'beyond reasonable doubt' to us (like in a criminal jury trial). Yes, different people may disagree when there is no undeniable proof.

Juries are simply giving their opinions based on evidence presented. They do not determine actual fact and often, they are wrong. That's not really anything to be proud of.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Juries are simply giving their opinions based on evidence presented. They do not determine actual fact and often, they are wrong. That's not really anything to be proud of.
The jury should be proud if they reasoned to the best of their ability.

What alternatives do we ever have to our best reasoning and judgment? We know very little of anything by absolute certain proof. Often the best we have is 'after considering the evidence, I believe XYZ is true beyond reasonable doubt'. That is what is called REASONING.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
The jury should be proud if they reasoned to the best of their ability.

What alternatives do we ever have to our best reasoning and judgment? We know very little of anything by absolute certain proof. Often the best we have is 'after considering the evidence, I believe XYZ is true beyond reasonable doubt'. That is what is called REASONING.

But reasoning only works when it's done by reasonable people, which a lot of people simply are not. Look back at the OJ Simpson trial. They had DNA evidence, yet the jury largely reacted emotionally, not intellectually. OJ is a hero! They can't find him guilty! Given the same evidence, reasonable people, or more correctly, people who use reason, ought to come to the same conclusion. We both know that isn't how it works though, and in a huge majority of cases, people don't care about evidence, they don't care about reason, they simply react emotionally. That's not reasoning. It's wishful thinking.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But reasoning only works when it's done by reasonable people, which a lot of people simply are not. Look back at the OJ Simpson trial. They had DNA evidence, yet the jury largely reacted emotionally, not intellectually. OJ is a hero! They can't find him guilty! Given the same evidence, reasonable people, or more correctly, people who use reason, ought to come to the same conclusion. We both know that isn't how it works though, and in a huge majority of cases, people don't care about evidence, they don't care about reason, they simply react emotionally. That's not reasoning. It's wishful thinking.
Reasoning is of course as valuable as one's objective reasoning skills. I thought OJ was guilty and rate my judgment above the jury's.

But what does your point mean to the thread topic? I hope you are not saying we should be agnostic on every subject where there is no hard proof; like OJ's guilt, Spiritual matter, etc.
 
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Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Reasoning is of course as valuable as one's objective reasoning skills. I thought OJ was guilty and rate my judgment above the jury's.

But what does your point mean to the thread topic? I hope you are not saying we should be agnostic on every subject where there is no hard proof; like OJ's guilt, Spiritual matter, etc.

As they should have. Reasoning requires following the evidence to a conclusion, not picking a conclusion and only paying attention to evidence that gets you there. The point is, nobody can possibly "know" that gods, any gods, actually exist. They have no basis upon which to make that claim. That claim requires evidence; objective, demonstrable, producible evidence. Theists have none. Therefore, it is nothing more than opinion, based on nothing more than wishful thinking. The fact remains that virtually every agnostic out there is also an atheist. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. If you claim you do not know if gods exist, something that is true of everyone, then you do not have a belief that they do, hence you are an atheist whether you want to call yourself one or not.

Rational people only believe things for which there is actually evidence, they give credence to ideas that are defensible and demonstrated, only once they are actually shown to be reasonable. Rational people do not believe in anything, be it gods or ghosts or Bigfoot or alien abductions until there is a good reason to think that these things actually exist.

Theists are not, by definition, rational people because they believe something for which they can produce no objective, demonstrable evidence of any kind. They are emotional. They are not rational.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

When I do say that (possible under certain circunstances, unlikely under others) it usually means that I'm certain to my own satisfaction that there is no point in attempting to believe or to raise an artificial doubt about the existence of any meaningful form of deity.

In recent months I have come to feel that people usually lend way too much importance to the matter of whether there are any deities.

Does it mean that you are fully convinced?

There isn't much to convince me off, but I suppose you could put it that way.


Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)

Those conceptions of God that somehow are bothered by my disbelief (nearly always the Abrahamic ones) are sometimes possible to evidence against, basically because they are supposedly opposed to the existence of atheism, yet made a point of ensuring its continued existence. That makes them either contradictory, insane or fictional.

Is it just strong faith?

Actually, I have come to conclude that the matter of whether there are any gods is not important enough to require much if any faith at all. We all should simply decide how many and which deities we feel confortable believing in (if any), change our minds as we see fit, and let the matter end there.

That ought to be enough either way. Deities may or may not exist, but they can't be both in need of our validation and worth a lot of our worries. We all have the right to simply not be up to the task of deciding which deities "truly exist", as well as of not much caring on what the accurate answer would be.

Not too many people have a reason to even want to be god's mouthpiece, I think. Let he speak for himself if he has something to say.
Something else?

Sometimes something else as well. It comes and goes. I'm not all that worried about that specific matter, for it is decidedly minor IMO.


I will share my thoughts later, but I thought that I would just get the ball rolling first.

Did you already? I'm curious.
 

mainliner

no one can de-borg my fact's ...NO-ONE!!
  • Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
  • Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
  • Is it just strong faith?
  • Something else?
.
•yes

•yes ( but i don't share anymore sorry :) )

•no its fact

• no


Ps.....this is for the " does exist" :)


good luck :)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Reasoning requires following the evidence to a conclusion, not picking a conclusion and only paying attention to evidence that gets you there. The point is, nobody can possibly "know" that gods, any gods, actually exist.
So far, so good. But....
They have no basis upon which to make that claim. That claim requires evidence; objective, demonstrable, producible evidence.
Here you start going wrong. I'll speak for someone like myself. The only claim I make is that my opinion is that God exists beyond reasonable doubt. I don't claim proof.

Theists have none. Therefore, it is nothing more than opinion, based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
Wrong. I have evidence from my study of the paranormal and the teachings of many masters objectively considered.


Rational people only believe things for which there is actually evidence, they give credence to ideas that are defensible and demonstrated, only once they are actually shown to be reasonable. Rational people do not believe in anything, be it gods or ghosts or Bigfoot or alien abductions until there is a good reason to think that these things actually exist.
Technically, I agree with the reasoning above but differ from you in believing quality evidence DOES exist.

Theists are not, by definition, rational people because they believe something for which they can produce no objective, demonstrable evidence of any kind.
I already stated I believe quality evidence (not proof) does exist.

They are emotional. They are not rational.
That can equally be true for atheists.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
You mean, other reasons for disagreements? Their learning and knowledge, the place they learned it from, their personalities, their upbringing are some other things.

Would any of that personal baggage impact the temperature at which water boils at sea level, for instance? Would any of that personal baggage impact the speed of light? Would any of that personal baggage impact the number of electrons in a hydrogen atom?

Would any of that personal baggage impact the cold, hard facts of science?

If not, could you please stop trying to imply that it does?
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Would any of that personal baggage impact the cold, hard facts of science?

If not, could you please stop trying to imply that it does?

We weren't talking science, I only mentioned that scientists have different opinions as well. I believe you asked me why people have different opinions. Your question has been answered.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Reasoning requires following the evidence to a conclusion, not picking a conclusion and only paying attention to evidence that gets you there.

You've already done that by claiming that most juries aren't reasonable. Your only basis for that is that they reach a verdict that differs from your opinion.

The point is, nobody can possibly "know" that gods, any gods, actually exist. They have no basis upon which to make that claim.

How do you know what people are thinking?

That claim requires evidence; objective, demonstrable, producible evidence.

Why? Do you require objective, demonstrable, producible evidence before deciding who you will fall in love with?

Therefore, it is nothing more than opinion... .

So?

The fact remains that virtually every agnostic out there is also an atheist.

I once told an atheist that I didn't believe in G-d when I was younger and considered myself an atheist at the time. He told me that since I currently believe in G-d that I was never a "true" atheist back then.

If you claim you do not know if gods exist, something that is true of everyone,

How can this be true of everyone, when many people myself included, are claiming that we know G-d exists? Now your opinion takes precedence over everyone else's? Are you the only rational person?

Rational people only believe things for which there is actually evidence, they give credence to ideas that are defensible and demonstrated, only once they are actually shown to be reasonable. Rational people do not believe in anything, be it gods or ghosts or Bigfoot or alien abductions until there is a good reason to think that these things actually exist.

That's silly. Most people are rational and have many reasons to support their beliefs. To state that beliefs must be limited to physical evidence is irrational.

Theists are not, by definition, rational people because they believe something for which they can produce no objective, demonstrable evidence of any kind. They are emotional. They are not rational.


Emotional and Rational are not antonyms. Most people are both emotional and rational, we are people. I suppose it makes you feel superior to call everyone that disagrees with you irrational.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You've already done that by claiming that most juries aren't reasonable. Your only basis for that is that they reach a verdict that differs from your opinion.

They are supposed to be, that's the whole point of having juries, that they will look at the evidence in an unbiased manner and come to a conclusion based on the evidence. That's what being rational is. Unfortunately there are far too many juries we can point to which do not act rationally, they have preconceived notions and conclusions based on emotion, not intellect, where they only pay attention to evidence that supports their preconceived conclusion and ignore the rest. In that, they work pretty much like religions.

How do you know what people are thinking?

Clearly they have to tell us. Luckily, there are lots of people who have no problem explaining what they think at the drop of a hat.

Why? Do you require objective, demonstrable, producible evidence before deciding who you will fall in love with?

No, that's an emotional state based on brain chemistry. It is, by definition, irrational. However, you should consider a lot of other factors objectively and demonstrably before you make any rational decisions about wanting to spend your life with this person. That's why the divorce rate is so high, most people never stop to consider the actual ramifications of spending the rest of their lives with an individual, they only go with the chemical high. That's a problem.


Opinions are ****-poor for determining actual reality. Opinions based solely on emotion don't actually get you anywhere demonstrably real. They're doing the same thing that people who get married just because they feel good are doing. Maybe that explains why the religious get divorced at a rate much higher than atheists.

I once told an atheist that I didn't believe in G-d when I was younger and considered myself an atheist at the time. He told me that since I currently believe in G-d that I was never a "true" atheist back then.

I can't respond to what someone else says, other than to say I consider him wrong. Anyone who doesn't believe in a god, any god, is an atheist. That doesn't mean they're a rational atheist, one who has come up with reasons why they reject the claims of the religious. Every baby born is, by definition, an atheist because they don't pop out of the womb believing in gods. That doesn't put babies on the same intellectual level as well-educated atheists who have studied religion for years and found it to be bunk.

How can this be true of everyone, when many people myself included, are claiming that we know G-d exists? Now your opinion takes precedence over everyone else's? Are you the only rational person?

But you don't know anything. You are claiming it. You cannot know God exists because you cannot provide any evidence whatsoever that God is actually real. Knowledge is not "I have an extraordinary amount of faith." That's not what knowledge is. Knowledge requires some demonstrable and rational basis in reality. You've got to be able to back up where you got this supposed knowledge. Christians claim to have "knowledge" that God is real. Hindus claim to have "knowledge" that Vishnu is real. Every religion claims to "know" their gods are real, yet every other religion discounts that claim of "knowledge" for one of their own. If there was any actual knowledge of God, there would be a massive amount of objective evidence supporting it. There isn't.

That's silly. Most people are rational and have many reasons to support their beliefs. To state that beliefs must be limited to physical evidence is irrational.

"Having a reason" and "being rational" are two different things. To be rational requires that you use the established laws of logic to construct proper arguments, using objective evidence. It doesn't mean that coming up with any cockamamie excuse to believe a proposition is rational. The problem here is that you people don't have the slightest clue how to use the terminology that you're using, you're just making claims because you think it makes your beliefs look better without having any idea what your statements really mean. If you are going to use "rational" in your arguments, you need to be able to back up your claims using the laws of logic and critical thinking and you can't. All you're doing is throwing around word salad.

Emotional and Rational are not antonyms. Most people are both emotional and rational, we are people. I suppose it makes you feel superior to call everyone that disagrees with you irrational.

There is a time and a place for being emotional, certainly, but that is not all the time and everyplace. This has nothing to do with superiority, it has everything to do with being factually correct. Words have meanings for a reason. If you use the words incorrectly, as you are doing with "rational", then the person who is wrong is you. When you find out that you're wrong, the only proper course of action is to correct it. I suspect you will not do so.
 

daguit

New Member
(I am sure that this question has been asked before on this forum, but the members come and go. So, I think it would be fun to serve it up again.)

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

  • Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
  • Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
  • Is it just strong faith?
  • Something else?
I will share my thoughts later, but I thought that I would just get the ball rolling first.

I guess it depends on which source or mechanism of knowledge you're referring to, and if you choose to accept it. A spiritual(personal) testimony of God is different from any empirical source. This knowledge cannot be imparted by physical or sensory evidence - only by personal revelation which is given to those that earnestly seek it (James 1:5-6).
 
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NulliuSINverba

Active Member
We weren't talking science

Oh really?

Akivah previously said:
What of it? Everyone has their own unique experiences and knowledge. I believe there are even scientists that disagree with each other.

When you mentioned scientists, it seemed like "we" were talking science. Sorry. My bad.

I only mentioned that scientists have different opinions as well.

Yes. However, you've also said (in this very thread) that people arrive at their feelings on a subject in advance of determining the facts and then dredge up whatever information they can find to prop up their preconceived opinion.

Most people determine how they feel about a topic and then look for evidence to support their view.

What you're describing there isn't science (nor is it how scientific disagreements are framed). It's institutionalized ignorance.

And before you attempt a strategic retreat back to "We weren't talking science" ... it follows that no one should ever be making up their minds in advance of the facts and then backtracking to find information to support their uninformed opinion. Because if the uninformed opinion is pure drivel ... it doesn't matter what <<<ahem>>> "facts" you can find to prop up your ignorance.

Creationism is a great example of this sort of deeply flawed, "make-the-facts-fit-the-opinion" approach to reason. It's why creationism isn't science.

I believe you asked me why people have different opinions.

Your belief is erroneous. I asked you if differing opinions have any impact whatsoever on the facts. Do we need to review? Observe:

NulliuSINverba said:
Would any of that personal baggage impact the cold, hard facts of science?

I'll ask again: Do differing opinions change the facts of a matter?

Your question has been answered.

Actually, it hasn't. You didn't even get into the ball park.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I guess it depends on which source or mechanism of knowledge you're referring to, and if you choose to accept it. A spiritual(personal) testimony of God is different from any empirical source. This knowledge cannot be imparted by physical or sensory evidence - only by personal revelation which is given to those that earnestly seek it (James 1:5-6).

But that's not knowledge, that's faith. There is a significant difference. If someone came up to you and told you that they knew that 2+2=147, you'd ask them where they got that knowledge. If they told you that an invisible flying monkey told them, you'd dismiss that claim of knowledge as irrational. We do the same thing to anyone who claims some unproven experience with a supposed deity gave them information. That's how rationality works.
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
I am convinced that gods to do not exist.
  • Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
89% convinced but open to be proven wrong with real evidence.

  • Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
My only evidence is anecdotal and an understanding of psychology

  • Is it just strong faith?
Nope it is lack of.
  • Something else?
It is logic.
 

daguit

New Member
But that's not knowledge, that's faith. There is a significant difference. If someone came up to you and told you that they knew that 2+2=147, you'd ask them where they got that knowledge. If they told you that an invisible flying monkey told them, you'd dismiss that claim of knowledge as irrational. We do the same thing to anyone who claims some unproven experience with a supposed deity gave them information. That's how rationality works.

Theologically speaking, personal revelation is by definition a perfect knowledge, if you are the recipient of the revelation. It would be futile to argue about the validity of such a claim with someone that does not accept said revelation. So, if you believe in the Bible, you have to take on the challenge in James 1:5-6 to know with a surety that which is true.
 
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