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Concerning the Islamic Conception of Jesus

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Any time that you have the time, there is no need to rush it, what I'm lookig for ideally is the most depth, symbols, thoughts, memories, insights, miracles all throughout your life,
That would take too long, but thanks for asking.

As far as what some may call "miracles" are concerned, the "premonitions" I had started out in me having a very strong feeling that my old girlfriend was praying at 11:00 mass at a Catholic church near her home, and I was able to verify that. These feelings came out of nowhere, were very strong, and they continued irregularly about every 2-4 weeks apart with no precondition.

When I went to our place in the U.P., they stopped, and I didn't know why? But then went to another Catholic church at the suggestion of some friends because of their choir, and at that 10:30 mass the "premonition" hit again like a gang-buster, I looked at my watch and it was 11:00. The previous church had mass at 9:30, thus no premonition occurred for almost three months because of the different timing.

And then they gradually tapered off, but then the strong feeling I had to go to 11:00 mass at the church that I had attended with my old girlfriend back in Kalamazoo in 1964.

paranormal events
None other than the above.

why you believe certain things while rejecting others possibly
I'm a scientist (anthropology), now retired, so I tend to use objectivity more than belief. My nature is to question basically everything, which is why what I went through with the above really threw me a "curve ball".

whole birth story and maybe even your ancestry,
I was born in 1945, and I am a Me'tis (French + Amerindian) and Swedish, and I always tended to look like and more emulate the latter personality-wise, especially the insecurity part when I was young.

I grew up going to Catholic school and I love these accounts!
Thanks, and please feel free to tell me about your experiences as I'd be very interested in them.

Anyhow, I hope the above at least gives you a general picture of what I went through that forever changed my life, and falling in love with two beautiful and devout Italian Catholic women, who for some reason loved me back in return, was something that I could never have anticipated. And both of them have my heart.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I’ve encountered many different perspectives on Jesus and the Gospel, from the beauty of the Bahá’ís (which is rather close, in my opinion, to the NT), to the mind-blowing conception of certain Hindus as an expansion or plenary portion of God (namely, Krishna or Vishnu) in the material world, to others as another rising-and-dying deity worshipped alongside their own as followers of indigenous religions do, to others as a holy man or a renegade. No sweat here.

(By religion, I myself am no Christian, merely sympathetic to it.)

Yet, concerning Islam, my anger has been kindled. Why, you may ask? Well, they not only differ with the New Testament (which, again, is perfectly fine. Understandable.), but they claim that the Christians have it all wrong about Jesus, Jesus didn’t say what He’s recorded as having said about who He was and what He would do. He said something different from what they believe He said.

My question here is this: if Muslims say that Jesus was a prophet, would a prophet lie about his identity and his message?



Jesus in the New Testament claims to be the Son of God, many times referring to God as “[My] Father”. Those around Him understood that He made such claims. Why do Muslims ignore these passages? Additionally, He had foretold his own death (by crucifixion), and the New Testament makes it abundantly clear this is what became of Jesus, not to speak a word to His Resurrection from the dead and eventual return. Yet, Muslims claim that it was fabricated. He was not crucified, but was taken up to Heaven. Why, when both scripture and history confirm the Crucifixion of Jesus as having taken place?

I invite my Muslim friends to read His Words from themselves and evaluate whether or not He was a liar. If you’re willing to concede that He was telling the truth, logically speaking, it would nullify your religion’s claims, would it not?

I believe the devil is the father of lies and since the Muslims are lying about Jesus we know exactly here they are coming from.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
@Mauricius Modestus -

You make no sense.

You acknowledge that Muslims believe that much of Christian scripture is fabricated/corrupted. Yet you then expect Muslims to simply read and accept what you say are Jesus’ words, even though you know that Muslims believe that what is written in Christian scripture is not accurate.

I believe he was inviting them to read and see if they could detect a lie but the fact is that they can't read without bias and do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe the devil is the father of lies and since the Muslims are lying about Jesus we know exactly here they are coming from.
And exactly how do you supposedly know that?

IOW, "beliefs" and "facts" are not synonymous terms, though a "belief" can be a "fact" if it's objectively confirmed.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe the devil is the father of lies and since the Muslims are lying about Jesus we know exactly here they are coming from.
Huh?
What about all the additions, editions and deceptions in your NT, eh?
All fibs come from where.....?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe he was inviting them to read and see if they could detect a lie but the fact is that they can't read without bias and do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
Wow ! And there was me, thinking exactly that about some Christians.
Holy Spirit guiding you? How come you haven't clicked on the many oddities about the NT, eh?
You're on slipping surface here, methinks.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe I can say: So what?
All the Jews thought of their God as their Father.
Jesus usually referred to himself as Son of Man.

The first verse of G-Mark is a deception. The words 'Son of God' were not in earliest bibles.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
the beauty of the Bahá’ís (which is rather close, in my opinion, to the NT),

retrofitting wouldn’t hold up

Jesus was subsequently resurrected

Whenever He’s supposed to come back, much will be made evident to all.

They were no doubt redacted accounts to meet the needs of the church at the time but would have some degree of reliability in conveying what Christ actually taught.

Wrong. Both Bahai and Islam do not accept that Jesus was resurrected.
All the Abrahamic religions seem to be "retrofitting" their beliefs into the Bible.

It isn't Jesus we consider the liar, but the writers of the New Testament and teachers and interpreters of it.

Ditto for the Baha'is. Jesus was just an innocent bystander when Paul and the Church fathers revamped His teachings and purpose.
So the NT is not the "Word" of God but the words of the followers of Jesus.

Concerning the Resurrection, I absolutely agree with you, OB. There’s no extra-biblical evidence for it. However, it is plainly evident that the New Testament teaches about a bodily resurrection. To say that it teaches anything else is dishonest, as I have been saying. I have no problem with any religion or scriptures that teaches what it does or that it teaches things different than what I believe. However, I’m not too fond of people who say that a religion or scripture teaches something different than what is evident that they teach. It’s dishonest. Again, it’s the same problem people of various religious persuasions have expressed with Bahá’ís.
They all do it.

What about all the additions, editions and deceptions in your NT, eh?
All fibs come from where.....?
The Jews would probably agree... nothing but "fibs" about Jesus being the Messiah. Christians explain their way out of any problematic verses to make it "God's Word". Islam says it has been corrupted and says that Jesus didn't die, so then he was "resuscitated"? And not "resurrected"? Then the Baha'is say that it's "inspired" by God, but God meant it to be taken symbolically? 1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not [the author] of confusion? Are you sure?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Whenever He’s supposed to come back, much will be made evident to all.
Jesus is not supposed to come back, Christians just "believe" He will come back.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Wrong, the NT is the Word of God but not the words of the followers of Jesus who prefer to believe in Christian doctrines.

so Mathew, Mark, Luke, John were not followers of Jesus, if so what were they??
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Concerning the Resurrection, I absolutely agree with you, OB. There’s no extra-biblical evidence for it. However, it is plainly evident that the New Testament teaches about a bodily resurrection. To say that it teaches anything else is dishonest, as I have been saying.
What does that mean, that the New Testament "teaches" about a bodily resurrection?

There are resurrection stories men wrote long after Jesus walked the earth but stories are not proof that anything in the stories ever actually took place.

Also, what is in the stories can be interpreted in more than one way, so what people actually believe is all a matter of interpretation.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died."

Beliefs of progressive Christians, secularists, etc. about Jesus' resurrection
 
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The Muslims probably have mixed opinions about the Bible as the word of God leaning towards it not being the word of God at this point but made by several writers as it claims, rather than the direct products of the "Book Bringing" Prophets.

"
In two surah (chapters), which are dated from the first Meccan period, there is a reference to the 'Leaves, Scrolls, Journals' (Suhuf) of Abraham (and the Scrolls of Moses), by which presumably certain divinely inspired texts handwritten by the patriarchs are meant. "

The Book Bringing Prophets are usually considered to be Abraham and his Suhuf, Musa and his Tawrat, David and his Zabur, Jesus and his Injeel, and Muhammed and his Qur'an.

A part of the Bible is just traditionally thought to be by Moses but pretty clearly is not by Moses because of how it was written, the other writings that have similar sections not associated with Moses directly like from writings of neighboring cultures and then bypasses his life and also speaks of him and not to him.

Its also unlikely that the Zabur are the Psalms, though its possible that is what was intended, there were other words that might have corresponded better.

"
The Arabic word zabūr means "book" "inscription," or "writing." [2]

An alternate, less accepted origin for the titlezabuur in the meaning of "psalm" is that it is a corruption of the Hebrew zimrah (Hebrew:זִמְרָה) meaning "song, music" or sipur(Hebrew: סִפּוּר‎), meaning "story." "

So the Qur'an seems to suggest there were books in resemblance of the Qur'an which had come from the "Mother Book".

43:4
"And Verily, it (this Quran) is in the Mother of the Book (i.e. Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before Us, indeed Exalted, full of Wisdom."

13:39
"Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book."

These were expected not to be written in the style that the Psalms or Tanakh is written, but in the style of the Qur'an, namely "Spoken To" and spoken in rhythmic and rhyming language easy for memorization and transmission and locking its careful structure making it difficult to change words without breaking the rhyme structure, rhythm, or meaning.

All the texts were also generally expected to be written in the Semitic Tongue which resembles Arabic, but may have been in other tongues, though this was probably not imagined by people.

The New Testament was knowm even in the earliest times not to be written by or dictates by Jesus but about Jesus and written as collected stories after his death, thus making it most similar to the Hadiths, which are popular among Muslims but supposedly was requested by Muhammed not to write those things but they did anyway.

So, the New Testament are some books written about Jesus and letters sent by Paul and stuff like that, and the Book of Revelations and whatever else. No one educated even thinks it was written by or dictated by the living human Jesus.

The Qur'an is the only scripture where academics suspect it really was authored by someone who was likely the Muhammed who is mentioned within the text.

The Torah, Psalms, and New Testament are the three most important Pre-Islamic scriptures, and the Torah or Tanakh makes no attempt to even appear like it was actually written by Moses or direct revelation to Moses.

So many Muslims who actually read these books and topping it off with reading the Qur'an further defaming the books and the followers of the books are unlikely to believe these are really the same as the Qur'an.

Yet! The Qur'an seems to feel no trouble in taking into its contents some very unusual things, such as a chunk from the Syriac Alexander Romance, the alleged dialogue of a Jinn convert, and stories that appear in the other scriptures. It also includes answers to questions posed by locals and local issues happening at the time supposedly and contemporary and sometimes perhaps petty seeming issues. Likewise, the Qur'an says that God does not have any trouble using even examples like gnats or mosquitos to demonstrate things or to make references to popular notions and literature that people were familiar with or asking about.

The style remains very consistent though and does not break from the impression that Muhammed is being spoken to and directed rather than speaking for himself ever.

That style is not at all present or reflected in practically any otherm scripture around the time or before (as far as I am aware).

My personal stance is heterodox to the mainstream, which is that God necessarily generates all experiences and everything in any experience in every detail down to how we interpret such, an idea that is strongly implied or outright repeatedly stated through the Qur'an but not very strongly accepted or seemingly comprehended by mainstream Muslims in that way. Thus, Moby Dick, Paradise Lost, The Holy War by John Bunyan, or even a Hustler magazine are all created by God but not necessarily good or for good, and can be used to mislead people as well.

The mainstream view though, which I also pretty much share, is that the Qur'an is especially a revelation which claims other revelations before it which we expect would be the same or very similar in style to the Qur'an.

I personally think the Bible is almost immediately a pretty terrible book and anyone "Islamified" by a strong positive feeling for the text and translations of the Qur'an, I believe in reading the Bible carefully would want to destroy the book as truly evil, easily misleading, slanderous and vile text. Even the psalms are often quite hateful and annoying:

Psalm 78:65
Then the Lord rose up as though waking from sleep, like a warrior aroused from a drunken stupor.

If I thought that David really wrote such a hideous thing, or even God, I'd despise them even more. No true Muslim in my opinion could ever accept such trash as the words supposed to be from God directly or a real Prophet. The Muslims typically accept these things only because of the opinion presented to them that these are the scriptures of the Prophets they heard about, but they would likely shoo away any of this by saying its changed or corrupted, in case they don't feel confident enough in stating that it is trash and descipable writing by people with really terrible minds / hearts.

So, Unlike the Bahai people and many Muslims as well who might claim these are really supposed to represent the words of God, to a "true Muslim" like I deem myself to be, they cause nothing but total revulsion and hatred really because of how different they are from the Qur'an, not only in its original language but also in translation and content, style, and description.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
All the Abrahamic religions seem to be "retrofitting" their beliefs into the Bible.

The Gospel writers certainly emphasised the consistency of Christ’s message with the Hebrew Bible and that Christ fulfilled prophecies concerning the expected Messiah. Matthew for example has over 60 references to Hebrew Scriptures.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

Mainstream Islam as evidenced from the above post has scant regard for the Torah and Gospel as presented in the Bible. There will be little hesitation for many Muslims in referring to both the Tanakh and New Testament as both corrupted and superseded by the Quran.

The Baha’is see the Torah and Gospel as having conveyed all the God wanted though Moses and Jesus and sees these books as being Divinely Inspired and protected. That isn’t to say we can be certain these books contain the exact Words spoken by Jesus or Moses, nor should they be taken literally.

Neither the Baha’i Revelation, not the Quran have been redacted to retrofit the Bible. They have been authenticated and can reasonably be considered the actual Words of The Bab, Bahá’u’lláh and Muhammad.
 
Islam says it has been corrupted and says that Jesus didn't die, so then he was "resuscitated"? And not "resurrected"? Then the Baha'is say that it's "inspired" by God, but God meant it to be taken symbolically? 1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not [the author] of confusion? Are you sure?

Hi, Islam here again. The Muslims largely believe Jesus never went through any sort of incident where he needed to be resuscitated, but rather that his prayer at Gethsamene was answered, and God saved him from all suffering and that the people who say he really was crucified or put on the stake or killed then by them are only conjecturing about something they know nothing about. There are varieties of personal beliefs but most Muslims seem to believe an illusion or someone else (Jesus Bar Abbas)
Barabbas - Wikipedia was thought to be Jesus Son of Mary and killed instead.

God is the author of confusion according to the Old Testament in clear examples, and the Qur'an, and through manipulating experiences and creating chaos supposedly brings about whatever God wants to bring about.

The Muslims reject the Trinity, the Death and Crucifixion of Jesus, the Divine Status of Jesus as God incarnate, the Descent of Jesus into Hades to preach to the dead, the "scapegoat" ideology of Jesus' blood sacrifice to cover the sin debt owed by mankind, original sin, basically every single defining Christian doctrine is completely rejected by Islam as false, illogical, even abhorrent or abominable, destructive to minds and the whole of reality if they were ever true, calamitous, despicable, unjust, false, exaggerates, erroneous, "false hope", and Satanic deception which deprecates the true and total easy power of Islam's model or concept of God.

The Muslims, being familiar with the Qur'an and familiar with the Christian beliefs and doctrines, would tend to look down on their conception as one of the worst in human history, but most Muslims are not very educated in the Qur'an or the Bible in much detail, which is probably for the best, so they happily assume it must be similar and saying the same kind of stuff, which it may be to some small degree but if they go in-depth, it very quickly becomes clear there is no way a devout Muslim can ever swallow what they would like that we should swallow, and the appropriate reaction to it ism treating it like absolute poison or toxic waste material or sewage.

That is also the way some fundamentalists view the Qur'an, though there is really far less justifiably objectionable content in the Qur'an, so their hate is different from a person finding the actual content really very wicked and twisted. They are always just grasping, like that "log in your own eye" thing.

The revulsion to the Qur'an seems unwarranted, prejudicial, and based on ugly freaks on television making everyone disgusted because of Islam being associated with criminals and marauding. Yet the contents, which anyone can read for free but people are too lazy to ever do anything, are clearly different, and the Bible starts right away with confusion as soon as it uses the term "Elohim" and the "im" being a plural, even though this is explained away quickly by various means, it is still immediately frustrating by introducing a problematic term almost immediately, and then going into a number of confusing and then downright unfair, unjust, vile, senseless stories, and confusing and corrupting, right from Genesis onwards.

Having read so many scriptures, the greatest of them all, the most clear, easy, usable, pragmatic, relevant, is the Qur'an. Its not a ton of blah blah blah blah, its bullet points repeated, emphasized, and in Arabic all while rhyming and rapping in a paced fashion. Its just awesome, but few will ever recognize it, which the Qur'an (like many bad artists) claims "is supposed to be that way" and that Allah has made people think what they can do and made them metaphorically cross eyed when looking at the Qur'an or even unable to even pick it up or read it at all, let alone ever understand it or like it or use it.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi, Islam here again. The Muslims largely believe Jesus never went through any sort of incident where he needed to be resuscitated, but rather that his prayer at Gethsamene was answered, and God saved him from all suffering and that the people who say he really was crucified or put on the stake or killed then by them are only conjecturing about something they know nothing about. There are varieties of personal beliefs but most Muslims seem to believe an illusion or someone else (Jesus Bar Abbas)
Barabbas - Wikipedia was thought to be Jesus Son of Mary and killed instead.

God is the author of confusion according to the Old Testament in clear examples, and the Qur'an, and through manipulating experiences and creating chaos supposedly brings about whatever God wants to bring about.

The Muslims reject the Trinity, the Death and Crucifixion of Jesus, the Divine Status of Jesus as God incarnate, the Descent of Jesus into Hades to preach to the dead, the "scapegoat" ideology of Jesus' blood sacrifice to cover the sin debt owed by mankind, original sin, basically every single defining Christian doctrine is completely rejected by Islam as false, illogical, even abhorrent or abominable, destructive to minds and the whole of reality if they were ever true, calamitous, despicable, unjust, false, exaggerates, erroneous, "false hope", and Satanic deception which deprecates the true and total easy power of Islam's model or concept of God.

The Muslims, being familiar with the Qur'an and familiar with the Christian beliefs and doctrines, would tend to look down on their conception as one of the worst in human history, but most Muslims are not very educated in the Qur'an or the Bible in much detail, which is probably for the best, so they happily assume it must be similar and saying the same kind of stuff, which it may be to some small degree but if they go in-depth, it very quickly becomes clear there is no way a devout Muslim can ever swallow what they would like that we should swallow, and the appropriate reaction to it ism treating it like absolute poison or toxic waste material or sewage.

That is also the way some fundamentalists view the Qur'an, though there is really far less justifiably objectionable content in the Qur'an, so their hate is different from a person finding the actual content really very wicked and twisted. They are always just grasping, like that "log in your own eye" thing.

The revulsion to the Qur'an seems unwarranted, prejudicial, and based on ugly freaks on television making everyone disgusted because of Islam being associated with criminals and marauding. Yet the contents, which anyone can read for free but people are too lazy to ever do anything, are clearly different, and the Bible starts right away with confusion as soon as it uses the term "Elohim" and the "im" being a plural, even though this is explained away quickly by various means, it is still immediately frustrating by introducing a problematic term almost immediately, and then going into a number of confusing and then downright unfair, unjust, vile, senseless stories, and confusing and corrupting, right from Genesis onwards.

Having read so many scriptures, the greatest of them all, the most clear, easy, usable, pragmatic, relevant, is the Qur'an. Its not a ton of blah blah blah blah, its bullet points repeated, emphasized, and in Arabic all while rhyming and rapping in a paced fashion. Its just awesome, but few will ever recognize it, which the Qur'an (like many bad artists) claims "is supposed to be that way" and that Allah has made people think what they can do and made them metaphorically cross eyed when looking at the Qur'an or even unable to even pick it up or read it at all, let alone ever understand it or like it or use it.
Cut the writer some slack. Don't be so quick to accuse them of lies. Many people often mistakenly view the NT stories as either lies or truths. That is a mistake. They are commentary on Torah, parables within parables. When people write things they don't always mean literally what they say. Sometimes they use figures of speech and images, and it helps to convey a meaning. A lie, on the other hand, is when you write with intent to deceive.

Consider the resurrection story -- the story of the cross of of the communion of blood and flesh. Anyone faintly familiar with Torah knows that its forbidden for all people to eat human flesh or drink blood, yet in the gospels Jesus says to eat and drink his. Its not literal is it? The few Muslims I have encountered online seem to ignore or be unaware of some of the things Jesus is quoted to say about death. He views death as living in sin and life as repentance, or at least he says things to that effect. Muslims (and many Christians) seem to ignore this, and then you say that the crucifixion is a lie when it conveys deep meaning. I think it means that a person must cease from sin in order to be alive in Christ, and I source that from gospel writers. You ignore this, and you lose value by doing so. You and too many other people I think take this the wrong way and think that there is some battle to be fought about whether the writer is telling lies or truths.

I think its because you're so focused upon the afterlife. Honestly I think Muslims are just not getting it. Its like nothing matters unless you get to have an afterlife! Afterlife afterlife afterlife give me that sweet afterlife. In the gospels there is a lot of emphasis upon denying ourselves, so what can the writer mean? A Christian is supposed to deny themselves, and how can they do that if they are in pursuit of living an afterlife? So what can the crucifixion and resurrection mean? It can't possibly mean that a person should live in selfish pursuit of an afterlife. That makes no sense. That seems to be mere selfishness with a thin coating of pretending to be doing something else.

It seems obvious why Muslims and Christians came to be at odds about the NT writings. They were each at war, and the Christians were angry. They didn't explain anything to the Muslims about these writings, and the Muslims appeared at a bad time when the Christians were all bickering among ourselves and had been for centuries. You got the mistaken impression that the NT writers were lying, that the resurrection was not a meaningful thing but a meaningless lie and had nothing to teach. Nobody cared enough or trusted the Muslims enough to correct this. The Muslims saw a bunch of warrior Europeans and assumed they were stupid enough to believe any lie. That's all that happened. Its comical except that its tragic.

People take the gospels too literally, but the writers go out of their way not to be taken literally. Its like they are shouting "Hello this is not literal OK? Notice that I am talking about things which are unthinkable for Jews, and its a clue." I think it is unfair to call writers liars when they are trying to convey truth. Are there no figures of speech permitted, no stories, no allegories? Is the reader to be treated as a stupid animal? I don't think so. I encourage you to take another approach when speaking about NT writers, because calling them liars is taking them literally unnecessarily and only flares tempers that need not be stirred up. Its true that many people take them too literally, but these writers aren't trying to lie to anyone -- pretty sure. Maybe they are deeply misunderstood.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@ CG Didymus

I suggest you read what @ Brickjectivity said in his post, especially the last part below. Then come back to me and tell me about Baha'is and how we do not “really believe” in the Bible just because we do not interpret it “literally.”

People take the gospels too literally, but the writers go out of their way not to be taken literally. Its like they are shouting "Hello this is not literal OK? Notice that I am talking about things which are unthinkable for Jews, and its a clue." I think it is unfair to call writers liars when they are trying to convey truth. Are there no figures of speech permitted, no stories, no allegories? Is the reader to be treated as a stupid animal? I don't think so. I encourage you to take another approach when speaking about NT writers, because calling them liars is taking them literally unnecessarily and only flares tempers that need not be stirred up. Its true that many people take them too literally, but these writers aren't trying to lie to anyone -- pretty sure. Maybe they are deeply misunderstood.

#78 Brickjectivity, 18 minutes ago
 
Cut the writer some slack. Don't be so quick to accuse them of lies. Many people often mistakenly view the NT stories as either lies or truths. That is a mistake. They are commentary on Torah, parables within parables. When people write things they don't always mean literally what they say. Sometimes they use figures of speech and images, and it helps to convey a meaning. A lie, on the other hand, is when you write with intent to deceive.

Consider the resurrection story -- the story of the cross of of the communion of blood and flesh. Anyone faintly familiar with Torah knows that its forbidden for all people to eat human flesh or drink blood, yet in the gospels Jesus says to eat and drink his. Its not literal is it? The few Muslims I have encountered online seem to ignore or be unaware of some of the things Jesus is quoted to say about death. He views death as living in sin and life as repentance, or at least he says things to that effect. Muslims (and many Christians) seem to ignore this, and then you say that the crucifixion is a lie when it conveys deep meaning. I think it means that a person must cease from sin in order to be alive in Christ, and I source that from gospel writers. You ignore this, and you lose value by doing so. You and too many other people I think take this the wrong way and think that there is some battle to be fought about whether the writer is telling lies or truths.

I think its because you're so focused upon the afterlife. Honestly I think Muslims are just not getting it. Its like nothing matters unless you get to have an afterlife! Afterlife afterlife afterlife give me that sweet afterlife. In the gospels there is a lot of emphasis upon denying ourselves, so what can the writer mean? A Christian is supposed to deny themselves, and how can they do that if they are in pursuit of living an afterlife? So what can the crucifixion and resurrection mean? It can't possibly mean that a person should live in selfish pursuit of an afterlife. That makes no sense. That seems to be mere selfishness with a thin coating of pretending to be doing something else.

It seems obvious why Muslims and Christians came to be at odds about the NT writings. They were each at war, and the Christians were angry. They didn't explain anything to the Muslims about these writings, and the Muslims appeared at a bad time when the Christians were all bickering among ourselves and had been for centuries. You got the mistaken impression that the NT writers were lying, that the resurrection was not a meaningful thing but a meaningless lie and had nothing to teach. Nobody cared enough or trusted the Muslims enough to correct this. The Muslims saw a bunch of warrior Europeans and assumed they were stupid enough to believe any lie. That's all that happened. Its comical except that its tragic.

People take the gospels too literally, but the writers go out of their way not to be taken literally. Its like they are shouting "Hello this is not literal OK? Notice that I am talking about things which are unthinkable for Jews, and its a clue." I think it is unfair to call writers liars when they are trying to convey truth. Are there no figures of speech permitted, no stories, no allegories? Is the reader to be treated as a stupid animal? I don't think so. I encourage you to take another approach when speaking about NT writers, because calling them liars is taking them literally unnecessarily and only flares tempers that need not be stirred up. Its true that many people take them too literally, but these writers aren't trying to lie to anyone -- pretty sure. Maybe they are deeply misunderstood.

Great post! Yes, it is true, the Muslims are obsessed with the afterlife, as are apparently the "world rejecting" Christians who are told to give up on the world and martyrs were highly praised and a sought after status in Early Christianity apparently.

I don't think the Muslims necessarily misunderstood, but were threatened by how ordinary people who were illiterate may have seemed to take things at large rather than refined commentaries which few even had access to or were able to even read amongst Christian communities. For the longest time, Christians in many communities had no access or knowledge of what the scripture or liturgy was even saying at all.

"Falsehoods" meaning, relaying events which never occurred, literally or figuratively, because the Muslims do not believe Jesus was killed in that way or died then, nor that he needed to die that way or that forgiveness occurs in such a way, the whole thing being false.

I do believe it was metaphorical and mystical language as you say, but it was also not dictated by Jesus, so is not even appropriately considered the revelation received and spoken by Jesus, which the Muslims would expect resembling the direct "speaking to the Prophet" style of the Qur'an.

None of the books resemble that style, nor do they even claim to be such, and the writings of Baha'Ullah, though they seem to have a clear Islamic influence in style and content, also don't appear in the "talking TO the Prophet" style or the metric rhyming verses.

There is no evidence Jesus ever said those things, and if Muhammed or Bob Seers wrote the Qur'an would not matter a bit, since Muhammed is not the focus nor even important in the view of the Qur'an which makes him out to be an expendable pawn overall, effortlessly replaced, its the content of the Qur'an itself which it says in a non-chalant manner, may be used to help or harm, which one never knows. It makes the message of the Qur'an highly unique and the worldview it presents which makes out the human beings to be totally unimportant. There is no emphasis on being particularly "chosen" or anything, that is why the emphasis falls on the afterlife, because this life is not expected to last, even as the Universe is expected not to last or this Sun or planet, so all hope then is directed into trying to attain a better state later, and putting faith in a man who supposedly died and because he died this apparently does something? Sounds absurd and dangerous, a bad horse to bet on. The Muslim is wagering with their soul, and they wager with making a case towards a hopefully kindly and just God who will credit us for a life filled with all sorts of measures meant to make punishment highly unlikely by most standards.
 
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