conflicted about strict monotheism (vs trinitarianism)

[IndigoChild5559]

Honestly? The trinity has always been something I either tried to explain in my own way, or ignored as best I could. In the past, I've explored various non-trinitarian (and non-Christian) belief systems, starting some twenty years ago I would say. Most recently, though, I spent the last three years or so really trying to "fake it till I make it" in the Catholic Christian identity. I really tried. I said I believed things that I doubted, trusting that they would work themselves out. This year I became more vocal in my church with several speaking opportunities, one in particular being my faith journey. Not long after this, all the old doubts returned. I believe God is a mystery, but I no longer believe that the Trinity is a mystery. It's confusion. That's not the same thing, and I don't believe God is a God of confusion, but of clarity, peace, and tranquility.

A follow up question to your comment regarding being "fine as a Gentile ethical monotheist" - I'm assuming that would mean not being involved in a Trinitarian church though? If so, a decision has to be reached - where do I worship God and with whom and how?

Well, obviously my recommendation is that you engage in monotheism without the Trinity. Viewing Jesus as God is a muddied sort of monotheism because it associates a person with God who is not God. There are strict monotheists that do worship in Christian churches, but I don't know how they manage, personally. However, I stay out of it.

You might want to message Rival, who is noachide, and see what he does as far as worship is concerned, whether he worships alone or as part of a Jewish community. He's a pretty friendly guy.

Did you say you had tried Unitarian Universalist? They would welcome you, although it tends to be a hodge podge of beliefs, including some that you might find offensive.

If you are willing to tolerate non-Western culture, ethical monotheism is embraced by Islam, Sikhism, and Baha'i. Each of those has their pluses and minuses, as always.

I think that no matter what, you have to come to terms with the fact that if you embrace a religious community, it means embracing others that will not agree with you on all things. Such is life, grasshopper. <3

 

[RabbiO]

Well, obviously my recommendation is that you engage in monotheism without the Trinity. Viewing Jesus as God is a muddied sort of monotheism because it associates a person with God who is not God. There are strict monotheists that do worship in Christian churches, but I don't know how they manage, personally. However, I stay out of it.

You might want to message Rival, who is noachide, and see what he does as far as worship is concerned, whether he worships alone or as part of a Jewish community. He's a pretty friendly guy.

Did you say you had tried Unitarian Universalist? They would welcome you, although it tends to be a hodge podge of beliefs, including some that you might find offensive.

If you are willing to tolerate non-Western culture, ethical monotheism is embraced by Islam, Sikhism, and Baha'i. Each of those has their pluses and minuses, as always.

I think that no matter what, you have to come to terms with the fact that if you embrace a religious community, it means embracing others that will not agree with you on all things. Such is life, grasshopper. <3

Rival is definitely not a pretty friendly guy. I’m surprised you have not noticed how Rival designates the religious path Rival follows.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Rival is definitely not a pretty friendly guy. I’m surprised you have not noticed how Rival designates the religious path Rival follows.

I can only judge based on the posts I have received from him, which have always been very pleasant and easy going.

 

[Rival]

I can only judge based on the posts I have received from him, which have always been very pleasant and easy going.

You're welcome.

 

[RabbiO]

@Rival

Do I tell @IndigoChild5559 or do you?

 

[Rival]

@Rival

Do I tell @IndigoChild5559 or do you?

@IndigoChild5559

I am currently menstruating.

​

 

[RabbiO]

@IndigoChild5559

I am currently menstruating.

​

It is not nice to make the rabbi laugh just as he starts to gulp his coffee.

 

[Rival]

It is not nice to make the rabbi laugh just as he starts to gulp his coffee.

I even know the bracha over coffee now. I'm such a good boy! One day I'll even know it in English.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Honestly? The trinity has always been something I either tried to explain in my own way, or ignored as best I could. In the past, I've explored various non-trinitarian (and non-Christian) belief systems, starting some twenty years ago I would say. Most recently, though, I spent the last three years or so really trying to "fake it till I make it" in the Catholic Christian identity. I really tried. I said I believed things that I doubted, trusting that they would work themselves out. This year I became more vocal in my church with several speaking opportunities, one in particular being my faith journey. Not long after this, all the old doubts returned. I believe God is a mystery, but I no longer believe that the Trinity is a mystery. It's confusion. That's not the same thing, and I don't believe God is a God of confusion, but of clarity, peace, and tranquility.

A follow up question to your comment regarding being "fine as a Gentile ethical monotheist" - I'm assuming that would mean not being involved in a Trinitarian church though? If so, a decision has to be reached - where do I worship God and with whom and how?

Well, obviously my recommendation is that you engage in monotheism without the Trinity. Viewing Jesus as God is a muddied sort of monotheism because it associates a person with God who is not God. There are strict monotheists that do worship in Christian churches, but I don't know how they manage, personally. However, I stay out of it.

You might want to message Rival, who is noachide, and see what he does as far as worship is concerned, whether he worships alone or as part of a Jewish community. He's a pretty friendly guy.

Did you say you had tried Unitarian Universalist? They would welcome you, although it tends to be a hodge podge of beliefs, including some that you might find offensive.

If you are willing to tolerate non-Western culture, ethical monotheism is embraced by Islam, Sikhism, and Baha'i. Each of those has their pluses and minuses, as always.

I think that no matter what, you have to come to terms with the fact that if you embrace a religious community, it means embracing others that will not agree with you on all things. Such is life, grasshopper. <3

Sorry to butt in but the Trinity is neither confused or muddled. I know it can be very hard to understand and we probably could completely understand it (although the point isn't to logically understand God, anyway), but the basics at least could be understood. The Trinity is basically three Persons with one Essence. The easiest way I can explain it is like 3 people having one soul, if you can imagine that.

 

[Rival]

Sorry to butt in but the Trinity is neither confused or muddled. I know it can be very hard to understand and we probably could completely understand it (although the point isn't to logically understand God, anyway), but the basics at least could be understood. The Trinity is basically three Persons with one Essence. The easiest way I can explain it is like 3 people having one soul, if you can imagine that.

It was explained to me like,

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It was explained to me like,

I like that analogy, too. Sure is pretty, at least.

 

[Rival]

I like that analogy, too. Sure is pretty, at least.

Like me. A pretty boy



There we go; now I have a better number of posts.

 

[Rival]

In all seriousness, I don't mind he or she. It's why I'm not always correcting folks.

 

[Karolina]

Did you say you had tried Unitarian Universalist? They would welcome you, although it tends to be a hodge podge of beliefs, including some that you might find offensive.

If you are willing to tolerate non-Western culture, ethical monotheism is embraced by Islam, Sikhism, and Baha'i. Each of those has their pluses and minuses, as always.

I think that no matter what, you have to come to terms with the fact that if you embrace a religious community, it means embracing others that will not agree with you on all things. Such is life, grasshopper. <3

This is what I need to come to terms with indeed. I have tried UU but as you say, there's a hodgepodge of beliefs, and while I enjoy interreligious dialogue, I find it difficult to worship with those who are not in agreement with me as to Whom we are worshiping, or how we ought to worship God.

I've researched pretty much everything that's out there, but I find partial revelation problematic. The idea that God revealed Himself to someone and told him (or her) to "pass it on". Any Joe Shmo can make that claim. I know in Christianity we are told to look at the fruits of someone's message to judge if they're a false prophet or not, but this too isn't always conclusive.

I keep rereading what you wrote about having to come to terms with the fact that if I embrace a religious community, I must be ok with the fact that we won't agree on everything. This is true in the Catholic church where I'm still affiliated, even though it was on issues that technically should've been a given since there are official church teachings that many people just opt not to focus on and instead assume they're merely political issues. I guess the question will come down to this - would I rather disagree on theology, morality, or practice? Because I will never find a place where we agree on all three.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry to butt in but the Trinity is neither confused or muddled. I know it can be very hard to understand and we probably could completely understand it (although the point isn't to logically understand God, anyway), but the basics at least could be understood. The Trinity is basically three Persons with one Essence. The easiest way I can explain it is like 3 people having one soul, if you can imagine that.

I didn’t say I didn’t understand the trinity. I said it was muddied monotheism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is what I need to come to terms with indeed. I have tried UU but as you say, there's a hodgepodge of beliefs, and while I enjoy interreligious dialogue, I find it difficult to worship with those who are not in agreement with me as to Whom we are worshiping, or how we ought to worship God.

I've researched pretty much everything that's out there, but I find partial revelation problematic. The idea that God revealed Himself to someone and told him (or her) to "pass it on". Any Joe Shmo can make that claim. I know in Christianity we are told to look at the fruits of someone's message to judge if they're a false prophet or not, but this too isn't always conclusive.

I keep rereading what you wrote about having to come to terms with the fact that if I embrace a religious community, I must be ok with the fact that we won't agree on everything. This is true in the Catholic church where I'm still affiliated, even though it was on issues that technically should've been a given since there are official church teachings that many people just opt not to focus on and instead assume they're merely political issues. I guess the question will come down to this - would I rather disagree on theology, morality, or practice? Because I will never find a place where we agree on all three.

Well I think there is something to be said for finding the community that you believe is closest to the truth. Then accept the ideosyncracies just as they accept yours.

Judaism makes the claim that God revealed himself to the entire people, not just an individual. I believe we are the only religion to make that claim.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn’t say I didn’t understand the trinity. I said it was muddied monotheism.

It's not, though. I mean, you can disagree but it's not a mess. There's different ways of explaining it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you all for your feedback. I may have been rushed in posting so perhaps I should clarify one thing: the reason I'm searching is to find a group of like-minded people to worship God with. It is not enough for me to stay home alone and pray to God as I understand Him. That's certainly a huge part of faith and spiritual practice for me, but not its entirety.

I also cannot tell for sure if I am motivated to "follow Jesus" because of my indoctrination and that's just the terminology I'm familiar with, or if I actually think there is a difference to following Jesus and following God. I believe that Jesus can lead us to "the Father" (aka God), but I also believe that Paul is the more influential figure in Christianity, and he has distorted Jesus's teachings to where it's quite tricky to discern what Jesus actually taught versus what has been put in his mouth, as it were.

I've watched and read The Case for Christ. I've gone through several intro to Christianity courses months long. I think there is a serious flaw in the premise that "Jesus is either a lunatic, a liar, or God". I think there is an overlooked fourth option - he indeed was a great teacher, but his teachings have been distorted. This, too, explains the apparent contradictions in the New Testament.

The other thing I may not have stated originally is that honestly, I do not think "ultimate truth" can be known this side of heaven, if you will. So it is a bit of an exercise in futility to try to find a place of worship that works, since I'm not really expecting "to find truth" outside of what I believe has been universally revealed to all of humanity through nature. I don't doubt the truth of God's existence, and I choose to believe that God is a personal entity Who loves me and created me for a reason. I also think God deserves to be worshipped, but this is where I run into trouble because... how/where/with whom?

I went through similar experiences except before I finally found truth it took 6 suicide attempts, periods in psychiatric institutions, drugged and in a strait jacket. And on top they administered 6 courses of electric shock therapy to try and ‘cure me’ of my insatiable belief that ‘something was not right’. I knew there was something very wrong. No unity or love but disunity and division within religions and between them.

I was on the verge of death after swallowing 50 sleeping tablets. I sensed a deep sickness in the world and didn’t want to stay here anymore. I was diagnosed as a chronic schizophrenic with no cure.

Then in my misery I came across something but as I had been so disillusioned in the past I believed to be just another sickness of humanity. But a very strong inner urge compelled me to take a closer look as I had almost sacrificed my own life having found nothing real, nothing to keep me here.

Just when I had given up I came across something real. So real it seemed impossible. Then as I came to discover it I became seized with joy and ecstasy. My tears of bitter anguish had been turned into weeping with joy. Inner peace was mine. Joy possessed my entire being and contentment greater than all the worlds wealth became mine.

That was 45 years ago. And today that joy and contentment, that inner peace and happiness is with me at every moment.

Now to me all humankind are my brothers and sisters and all religions teach truth. We are all one family and the sickness is the division and prejudices between people based on a mirage, an invisible barrier erected in the mind which turns us against one another. Once that barrier has been torn down it’s a beautiful world full of awesome people and religions and a life of joy and contentment awaits the mind and heart that loves all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not, though. I mean, you can disagree but it's not a mess. There's different ways of explaining it.

I'm simply saying it is not pure monotheism. It is a compromised monotheism. Sheesh. I would think that anyone could see that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm simply saying it is not pure monotheism. It is a compromised monotheism. Sheesh. I would think that anyone could see that.

And I'm going to disagree. One God is one God. The Nicene Creed even starts out saying "I/we believe in one God". I believe in the Trinity and I still believe in one God. You can think it's idolatry or whatever but I'm not too concerned about the opinions of others about it.