Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

I facepalmed because you wrote "Indian extremism".

I was referring to the Al Qaeda 'branch' in India; the members are Indian technically right? And this was also referring to the Khalistan (and other non Muslim) movements as Pakistan seemed to help all of them/ during 1984 had members dressed as Sikhs. While I don't doubt this, it'd only be one part of the equation.

And as stated numerous times (though people seem to ignore this completely) people could see Bhindranwale as harshly as Osama bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeini or Yasser Arafat. I go with #2 myself as I honestly don't know enough about Arafat and Khomeini wasn't THAT bad (simply because the Shah wasn't that good either).

Look at the similarities between their messages:

'Indira and Congress have labelled me a terrorist. If getting Sikhs to take amrit and stay away from drugs, alcohol, meat, abstain from trimming their hair and beards, defending the honor of our sisters and the spilling blood of the shaheeds is the work of a terrorist then yes I am a terrorist'

“When the time comes for confrontation, don't kill the poor, don't molest the women and don't trouble the old, but don't spare anyone who insults Guru Ji!"

Read more: Sant jarnail singh ji khalsa bhindranwale – famous quotes

'I have declared that if there is someone who drinks while wearing a kirpaan, and you catch him drunk, the punishment I have announced is that you should get him examined by a doctor (to make sure he has been drinking) and then pour kerosene over him and burn him alive. I shall fight your court case. This is regardless of the party affiliation of the person in such a garb doing such a thing. My appeal to all is that no one should drink but this does not apply to the others, it is only for those with the kirpaan. ... If any raagi, sant, mahatma, granthi & even if he is from Bhindranwale (group), who wears a kirpaan and drinks, wherever you find him, blacken his face, put a garland of old shoes around his neck, put him on a donkey and parade him throughout the village.'
​

These last 2 quotes were a bit 'shocking' as they seemed a bit extreme. He says that any Sikh who drinks alcohol should be burned alive and anyone who disrespects Sri Guru Granth Sahib must be punished. Any Sikhs' take on this?

And of course, the obvious one. One could argue it is him coaxing Indi(r)a

'If the Indian government attacks the Golden Temple, it will lay the foundation stone of Khalistan'

Khomeini

Religion and the state not being separate entities.

"People have to learn from the mother who brought her own son to court and then her son was hanged. This is one of the paradigms of Islam, that everyone has to be the same. Children, brothers, kids-if they do not accept advice, introduce them to government officials so that they can receive their punishment ... this is their Islamic responsibility and their faith responsibility. This must be done." -Ayatollah Khomeini

"Those who have not voted for the Islamic Republic, it means that they want the previous system. Those who boycott the election so no one votes for the Islamic Republic are seditious. We will treat them like enemies, and we will oppress them. You are enemies that you want to cause trouble. You are enemies that you are conspiring against Islam and against the country. Your comings and goings are controlled. We have been informed that you are in contact with those who want to bring our country back to its previous system. Now that your conspiracy has been proven, we will destroy you all. If you don't stop your evilness, we will mobilize an even higher mobilization, and we will clean out all of you. We will not allow you groups of corrupt people to remain and continue your activities. -Ayatollah Khomeini (in a message at the end of the month-long Islamic fasting celebration, September 3, 1979)

"Don't listen to those who speak of democracy. They all are against Islam. They want to take the nation away from its mission. We will break all the poison pens of those who speak of nationalism, democracy, and such things." -Ayatollah Khomeini (in a meeting with Iranian students and educators, Qom,[3] March 13, 1979)

Arafat

Willingness to fight until the bitter end

• The Israelis are mistaken if they think we do not have an alternative to negotiations. By Allah I swear they are wrong. The Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice until either the last boy and the last girl raise the Palestinian flag over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem.
  • In a speech given on 6 August 1995, at a party to celebrate the birth of his daughter, reported in Haaretz (6 September 1995) and in The Jerusalem Post (7 September 1995)

The PLO will now concentrate on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps... We plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs. I have no use for Jews. They are and remain Jews. We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under Arab rule.

• In a speech to Arab diplomats in Stockholm; Quoted in the Jerusalem Post (23 February 1996)

bin Laden

Arguably the most similar ideology wise. ESPECIALLY the view about arming people of his religion; remember when Bhindranwale armed Harmandir Sahib to the teeth? Obviously he felt threatened but so did bin Laden:

If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.

Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims.

Some have argued that "without the writings" of Islamic author and thinker Sayyid Qutb, "al-Qaeda would not have existed."[80] Qutb preached that because of the lack of sharia law, the Muslim world was no longer Muslim, having reverted to pre-Islamic ignorance known as jahiliyyah.


To restore Islam, he said a vanguard movement of righteous Muslims was needed to establish "true Islamic states", implement sharia, and rid the Muslim world of any non-Muslim influences, such as concepts like socialism and nationalism. Enemies of Islam in Qutb's view included "treacherous Orientalists"[81] and "world Jewry," who plotted "conspiracies" and "wicked[ly]" opposed Islam.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Khalistan, Tamil Nadu, Manipur, Nagaland, Bodo, Assam, the quick answer without looking into grievances:

You might have heard the proverb "Ghar mein das bartan hote hain to kharakte hain" (If there are ten utensils in the house then they clang (with each other)." We take it in our stride. India stands strong today and will be so in future.

Dr Zawahiri launched the Indian branch of Al Qaeda today. What is Islamic extremism like in India as it's the country with third largest Muslim population in the World?

Send them to us. They seem to have a death wish. We will deal with them. It will only cause harm to Indian muslims because a few will be fooled by your Saudi-trained maulanas. Yes, we have a few misguided people.

Was Indian Punjab partitioned to preserve Sikh culture as Ludhiana and Haryana used to be part of it didn't they?

They insisted on Punjabi and the whole area was not Punjabi speaking. They were given what they wanted.

 

[ronki23]

You might have heard the proverb "Ghar mein das bartan hote hain to kharakte hain" (If there are ten utensils in the house then they clang (with each other)." We take it in our stride. India stands strong today and will be so in future.Send them to us. They seem to have a death wish. We will deal with them. It will only cause harm to Indian muslims because a few will be fooled by your Saudi-trained maulanas. Yes, we have a few misguided people.They insisted on Punjabi and the whole area was not Punjabi speaking. They were given what they wanted.

Wait a minute, doesn't Haryana speak Punjabi as its main language? Same as Himachal Pradesh? Was this partition partly because that was one of the Sikh demands along with Anandpur Sahib? Was prevention of Khalistan demand one of the reasons the state was partitioned if Haryana speaks Punjabi and many Hindu Punjabis come from Haryana and Himachal Pradesh?

I see that the buildup to the 1984 riots was because of the Punjabi language issue but I also see that the farmers were not paid properly? I assume back then a lot of this was state ownership as opposed to private enterprise so the farmers had limited bargaining power. But why was the water drained out of the Punjab? Were the crops and water issues part of Anandpur Sahib Resolution as that's a lot of reading to do! It can't be because of the language if the Punjab was already divided internally for the Sikhs

and why isn't Delhi considered part of Punjab since sooo many of Delhi's inhabitants are Punjabi? The majority of those killed in the 84 riots were Delhi Sikhs (3000 plus at least 2000 in other parts of India). There are also Hindu Punjabis there right?

Last, but by no means least, a young fellow who I discussed 1984 with said that Sikhs only wanted to be treated as equals and it's his seva for the march against the genocide of Sikhs. He said Bhindranwale was not a terrorist. So is this why the whole INC was corrupt? Because the appease some minorities (like Muslims and untouchables) but not others (like Sikhs)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, Haryana does not speak Punjabi as its main language. Himachal language is called Pahari and is different from Punjabi. Creation of Punjab was because of their language demand. Delhi too is not a Punjabi majority state. Punjabi is one of the state languages of Delhi along with Hindi and Urdu (Do you know that Urdu is one of the national languages in India?). Punjabi is a state language in Haryana and Himachal Pradesh. There are Punjabi Hindus all over India, in Punjab too.

Farmers and other people are eternally on the opposite side. Farmers want the sky, other people want cheap food. Government has to find a middle point. It is so everywhere. If government does not interfere, farmers will not get even what they get now. Traders will import food grains. Water again is an issue. Just as Punjab wants it, so do Haryana and other states. Again, government has to satisfy all sides. Pong and Gobind Sagar Dams are in Himachal Pradesh. It cannot give all water to Punjab or all electricity.

Sikhs are at no disadvantage in India (Remember Manmohan Singh and General Bikram Singh). India is not Pakistan that it would treat Baluchis, Sindhis and Pakhtoons differently. If there was a genocide of Sikhs, there was a genocide of Hindus in Punjab too during the insurgency. The young fellow should not forget this.

 

[ronki23]

No, Haryana does not speak Punjabi as its main language. Himachal language is called Pahari and is different from Punjabi. Creation of Punjab was because of their language demand. Delhi too is not a Punjabi majority state. Punjabi is one of the state languages of Delhi along with Hindi and Urdu (Do you know that Urdu is one of the national languages in India?). Punjabi is a state language in Haryana and Himachal Pradesh. There are Punjabi Hindus all over India, in Punjab too.

Farmers and other people are eternally on the opposite side. Farmers want the sky, other people want cheap food. Government has to find a middle point. It is so everywhere. If government does not interfere, farmers will not get even what they get now. Traders will import food grains. Water again is an issue. Just as Punjab wants it, so do Haryana and other states. Again, government has to satisfy all sides. Pong and Gobind Sagar Dams are in Himachal Pradesh. It cannot give all water to Punjab or all electricity.

Sikhs are at no disadvantage in India (Remember Manmohan Singh and General Bikram Singh). India is not Pakistan that it would treat Baluchis, Sindhis and Pakhtoons differently.If there was a genocide of Sikhs, there was a genocide of Hindus in Punjab too during the insurgency. The young fellow should not forget this.

LFirstly, was India state planned before this? Could farmers not set their own prices for grain? Why was water drained out?

But if this was true then why are there no marches and protests about this? Why no demand for an investigation or appeal for there to be classed as a genocide.

5000 Sikhs were killed by Hindu rioters after Indira's death in 1984; and numbers go as high as 10,000 to 50,000 before and after. But who would kill Hindu Punjabis and for what reason

 

[Aupmanyav]

Farmers cannot decide prices. It is a matter of demand and supply. Government declares a minimum purchase price to help farmers. If India were to sign FTA (Free Trade), the prices will go downwards, and that is not going to help farmers. From where the water was drained out? I could not understand your question.

Not only Hindus but the Sikhs too suffered. The Pakistanis masquerading as Sikhs separatists caused a lot of sorrow among Sikhs too. Why should we rake up only our loss, now that they are dead and gone? Let the foreign Sikhs keep on making hue and cry, we care two hoots about them.

The separatists killed Hindus for the simple reason that they were Hindus. That is how terrorists work. Why should Islamic State soldiers should kill Kurds, al-Quaeda Sunnis, Shias, Yazidis, Christians, and Jews? Why are Pakistan terrorists and government are at each other's throat? The same is happening in many other Muslim countries. Islam knows nothing other than this.

When would your questions stop, Ronki? If you are not able to understand the situations, just leave it and engage yourself in some other thing. You are not ever going to make me trip. You are just repeating questions.

 

[Poeticus]

When would your questions stop, Ronki?

Never. It's like a disease. :sad:

 

[ronki23]

Farmers cannot decide prices. It is a matter of demand and supply. Government declares a minimum purchase price to help farmers. If India were to sign FTA (Free Trade), the prices will go downwards, and that is not going to help farmers. From where the water was drained out? I could not understand your question.

Not only Hindus but the Sikhs too suffered. The Pakistanis masquerading as Sikhs separatists caused a lot of sorrow among Sikhs too. Why should we rake up only our loss, now that they are dead and gone? Let the foreign Sikhs keep on making hue and cry, we care two hoots about them.

The separatists killed Hindus for the simple reason that they were Hindus. That is how terrorists work. Why should Islamic State soldiers should kill Kurds, al-Quaeda Sunnis, Shias, Yazidis, Christians, and Jews? Why are Pakistan terrorists and government are at each other's throat? The same is happening in many other Muslim countries. Islam knows nothing other than this.

When would your questions stop, Ronki? If you are not able to understand the situations, just leave it and engage yourself in some other thing. You are not ever going to make me trip. You are just repeating questions.

The water and electricity were drained out of Punjab. And I question how 'Khalistan won't work' because there used to be an i dependant Sikh nation before India unified and the SGPC and Tara Singh proposed it/Gandhi said 'yes'

Aupmanyav, you blame Muslims for everything. Yet you sympathise with Palestinians. Shirdi Sai Baba was Muslim too, as was Malcolm X
And the Bosnian Genocide was committed against Muslims

WHO killed Hindus during the 80s? We know at least 5000 Sikhs were killed by mob riots, a Sikh army official helped Bhindranwale, and Bhindranwale and Chauhan were Sikhs! But who killed Hindus

And using that analogy, expat Hindu Punjabis would protest too but they don't
If Nazi Germany existed today then you wouldn't expect German Jews living there to protest would you?

I don't understand your views Aupmanyav, you are clearly learned about Hindu and Indian history but 'modern' events i'm not so sure about! You say ISI was to blame about everything in 1984 but the 2 documentaries show that Congress is to blame (even you yourself dislike Congress)

[youtube]JXqH0AFBYkU[/youtube]

[youtube]bR6THxPMWH8[/youtube]

[youtube]FiQlfQw111o[/youtube]

 

[ronki23]

Why is it Sikhs praise Bhindranwale and/or hate Indira Gandhi, yet Muslims hate individuals like Khomeini (Iranians hate him), Arafat (Palestinians think he's a thief) and bin Laden (Northern Alliance and Saudis/Emiratis hate him)

See similarity in messages.

I was referring to the Al Qaeda 'branch' in India; the members are Indian technically right? And this was also referring to the Khalistan (and other non Muslim) movements as Pakistan seemed to help all of them/ during 1984 had members dressed as Sikhs. While I don't doubt this, it'd only be one part of the equation.

And as stated numerous times (though people seem to ignore this completely) people could see Bhindranwale as harshly as Osama bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeini or Yasser Arafat. I go with #2 myself as I honestly don't know enough about Arafat and Khomeini wasn't THAT bad (simply because the Shah wasn't that good either).

Look at the similarities between their messages:

'Indira and Congress have labelled me a terrorist. If getting Sikhs to take amrit and stay away from drugs, alcohol, meat, abstain from trimming their hair and beards, defending the honor of our sisters and the spilling blood of the shaheeds is the work of a terrorist then yes I am a terrorist'

“When the time comes for confrontation, don't kill the poor, don't molest the women and don't trouble the old, but don't spare anyone who insults Guru Ji!"

Read more: Sant jarnail singh ji khalsa bhindranwale – famous quotes

'I have declared that if there is someone who drinks while wearing a kirpaan, and you catch him drunk, the punishment I have announced is that you should get him examined by a doctor (to make sure he has been drinking) and then pour kerosene over him and burn him alive. I shall fight your court case. This is regardless of the party affiliation of the person in such a garb doing such a thing. My appeal to all is that no one should drink but this does not apply to the others, it is only for those with the kirpaan. ... If any raagi, sant, mahatma, granthi & even if he is from Bhindranwale (group), who wears a kirpaan and drinks, wherever you find him, blacken his face, put a garland of old shoes around his neck, put him on a donkey and parade him throughout the village.'
​

These last 2 quotes were a bit 'shocking' as they seemed a bit extreme. He says that any Sikh who drinks alcohol should be burned alive and anyone who disrespects Sri Guru Granth Sahib must be punished. Any Sikhs' take on this?

And of course, the obvious one. One could argue it is him coaxing Indi(r)a

'If the Indian government attacks the Golden Temple, it will lay the foundation stone of Khalistan'

Khomeini

Religion and the state not being separate entities.

"People have to learn from the mother who brought her own son to court and then her son was hanged. This is one of the paradigms of Islam, that everyone has to be the same. Children, brothers, kids-if they do not accept advice, introduce them to government officials so that they can receive their punishment ... this is their Islamic responsibility and their faith responsibility. This must be done." -Ayatollah Khomeini

"Those who have not voted for the Islamic Republic, it means that they want the previous system. Those who boycott the election so no one votes for the Islamic Republic are seditious. We will treat them like enemies, and we will oppress them. You are enemies that you want to cause trouble. You are enemies that you are conspiring against Islam and against the country. Your comings and goings are controlled. We have been informed that you are in contact with those who want to bring our country back to its previous system. Now that your conspiracy has been proven, we will destroy you all. If you don't stop your evilness, we will mobilize an even higher mobilization, and we will clean out all of you. We will not allow you groups of corrupt people to remain and continue your activities. -Ayatollah Khomeini (in a message at the end of the month-long Islamic fasting celebration, September 3, 1979)

"Don't listen to those who speak of democracy. They all are against Islam. They want to take the nation away from its mission. We will break all the poison pens of those who speak of nationalism, democracy, and such things." -Ayatollah Khomeini (in a meeting with Iranian students and educators, Qom,[3] March 13, 1979)

Arafat

Willingness to fight until the bitter end

• The Israelis are mistaken if they think we do not have an alternative to negotiations. By Allah I swear they are wrong. The Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice until either the last boy and the last girl raise the Palestinian flag over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem.
  • In a speech given on 6 August 1995, at a party to celebrate the birth of his daughter, reported in Haaretz (6 September 1995) and in The Jerusalem Post (7 September 1995)

The PLO will now concentrate on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps... We plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs. I have no use for Jews. They are and remain Jews. We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under Arab rule.

• In a speech to Arab diplomats in Stockholm; Quoted in the Jerusalem Post (23 February 1996)

bin Laden

Arguably the most similar ideology wise. ESPECIALLY the view about arming people of his religion; remember when Bhindranwale armed Harmandir Sahib to the teeth? Obviously he felt threatened but so did bin Laden:

If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.

Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims.

Some have argued that "without the writings" of Islamic author and thinker Sayyid Qutb, "al-Qaeda would not have existed."[80] Qutb preached that because of the lack of sharia law, the Muslim world was no longer Muslim, having reverted to pre-Islamic ignorance known as jahiliyyah.


To restore Islam, he said a vanguard movement of righteous Muslims was needed to establish "true Islamic states", implement sharia, and rid the Muslim world of any non-Muslim influences, such as concepts like socialism and nationalism. Enemies of Islam in Qutb's view included "treacherous Orientalists"[81] and "world Jewry," who plotted "conspiracies" and "wicked[ly]" opposed Islam.

More:

In Punjab, Sant Bhindranwale went from village to village as a religious missionary talking with Sikhs. He asked them to live according to the rules and tenets of Sikhism. He would give long speeches and encourage numerous youths to take Amrit, the holy nectar. Bhindranwale preached to the young Sikhs who had lost their path, encouraging them to return to the path of the Khalsa by giving up vices like alcohol, tobbacco, drugs, prostitution or any other addictions which would effect them mentally or physically. His focus on fighting beside the then akali party under Sant Harchand singh Longowal for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution (see contents, Proof of Discrimination against Sikhs).

 

[Aupmanyav]

The water and electricity were drained out of Punjab. And I question how 'Khalistan won't work' because there used to be an i dependant Sikh nation before India unified and the SGPC and Tara Singh proposed it/Gandhi said 'yes'.

Aupmanyav, you blame Muslims for everything. Yet you sympathise with Palestinians. Shirdi Sai Baba was Muslim too, ..

WHO killed Hindus during the 80s? We know at least 5000 Sikhs were killed by mob riots, a Sikh army official helped Bhindranwale, and Bhindranwale and Chauhan were Sikhs! But who killed Hindus? And using that analogy, expat Hindu Punjabis would protest too but they don't.

If Nazi Germany existed today then you wouldn't expect German Jews living there to protest would you?

I don't understand your views Aupmanyav, you are clearly learned about Hindu and Indian history but 'modern' events i'm not so sure about! You say ISI was to blame about everything in 1984 but the 2 documentaries show that Congress is to blame (even you yourself dislike Congress).

This is absolutely childish. Neither water nor electricity belongs to Punjab. As I have already said both are in Himachal Pradesh, Pratap Sagar dam and Gobind Sagar dam. And there are commissions who decide who gets what, Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryan, Rajasthan, and Delhi depending on their needs. No one should claim more than their due. It is government of India money which was used to build these dams, paid by tax-payers all over India. And at one time Pakistan and half of Afghanistan were under Hindu Kings. Should we now try to go back to that? If Gandhi said yes, it was his opinion. Who gave the authority to Gandhi to speak for all Hindus?

In case of Palestine, it is not a question of Judaism or Islam. It is about the right of one people. Hindus should not worship any babas as equivalent of Gods and Goddesses. If they do, it is wrong, dilution of Hinduism. The sikh separatists and the infiltrators from Pakistan disguised as separatists killed Hindus. The whole problem has now been decimated, why should we remember a sorry closed chapter? I am least concerned about German Jews.

It hardly matters if you think that I do not know about modern history. Yes, the main purpose of ISI is to act against India in whatever way possible. If it was not for Pakistan, ISI, terrorist organizations and politicians like Azam Khan in Uttar Pradesh, even Hindus and Muslims would live in peace in India. If Congress was to be blamed for things, India has summarily rejected it in the current elections. It is going to loose heavily even in the Haryana and Maharashtra in the forth-coming elections. Congress and all trouble-mongers are now history. It is the Modi/BJP era, India's second independence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why is it Sikhs praise Bhindranwale and/or hate Indira Gandhi, yet Muslims hate individuals like Khomeini (Iranians hate him), Arafat (Palestinians think he's a thief) and bin Laden (Northern Alliance and Saudis/Emiratis hate him).

Half the young boys in Pakistan are named Osama, Saddam and Arafat. Don't try to fool us.

 

[ronki23]

This is absolutely childish. Neither water nor electricity belongs to Punjab. As I have already said both are in Himachal Pradesh, Pratap Sagar dam and Gobind Sagar dam. And there are commissions who decide who gets what, Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryan, Rajasthan, and Delhi depending on their needs. No one should claim more than their due. It is government of India money which was used to build these dams, paid by tax-payers all over India. And at one time Pakistan and half of Afghanistan were under Hindu Kings. Should we now try to go back to that? If Gandhi said yes, it was his opinion. Who gave the authority to Gandhi to speak for all Hindus?

In case of Palestine, it is not a question of Judaism or Islam. It is about the right of one people. Hindus should not worship any babas as equivalent of Gods and Goddesses. If they do, it is wrong, dilution of Hinduism. The sikh separatists and the infiltrators from Pakistan disguised as separatists killed Hindus. The whole problem has now been decimated, why should we remember a sorry closed chapter? I am least concerned about German Jews.

It hardly matters if you think that I do not know about modern history. Yes, the main purpose of ISI is to act against India in whatever way possible. If it was not for Pakistan, ISI, terrorist organizations and politicians like Azam Khan in Uttar Pradesh, even Hindus and Muslims would live in peace in India. If Congress was to be blamed for things, India has summarily rejected it in the current elections. It is going to loose heavily even in the Haryana and Maharashtra in the forth-coming elections. Congress and all trouble-mongers are now history. It is the Modi/BJP era, India's second independence.

You saw the video of how Congress deliberately pitted Hindus against Sikhs in Punjab didn't you? Dr Swamy

And as I stated before, Bhindranwale was Sikh and Shabeg Singh and Jagjit Singh Chauhan were Sikh, Amrik and Shabeg Singh too. Indira's own bodyguards were Sikh. Sikh soldiers also mutinied. So how can it be the fault of Pakistan if many Sikhs were involved. Yes ISI had a hand in it but were not the primary reason.

And you didn't address the Bosnia genocide either. That was a massacre of Muslims by non Muslims

What I meant about bin Laden and Arafat was that Bhindranwale preached a message of orthodoxy against liberalism e.g stop the infiltration of drugs,alcohol, pornography into the religion and physically fight forthe religious rights (by the way, Pakistan shouldn't represent the Muslim world- Afghanistan's Northern Alliance, Kurdish fighters, Kuwaitis, Jordanians, Lebanese, Emiratis, Qataris, Bahrainis, Saudis, all are allies against Al Qaeda and ISIS although Saudi Arabia has a lot of anti Westerners)

And the reason I looked up Punjab's division was that Bluestar was the result of Congress not adopting the Anandpur Sahib Resolution and Bhindranwale defecting from Congress after seeing their corruption. But WHY does Congress choose some minorities over others? Muslims and untouchables. And is THAT the reason people say Congress is super corrupt?

And I thought the Punjab partition within India WAS Congress meeting Sikh demands. Yet there still were problems as the Sikhs wanted Anandpur Sahib resolution and saw it as a big deal enough for Bluestar to have occurred. Must have been a reason for the demand for a resolution to have turned to armed conflict...


Happy 60th page

 

[Aupmanyav]

Bosnia is too far from India. I think most of the demands made in Anandpur resolution have been adopted. Yes, Congress chose the minorities according to what suited them at a particular time. Before the present elections they included the Jats among 'Other Backward Classes'. Congress was a divisive force and it is good that it is finished for good, thanks to their heir-apparent, Rahul Gandhi. The boy destroyed Congress single-handedly.

 

[ronki23]

Bosnia is too far from India. I think most of the demands made in Anandpur resolution have been adopted. Yes, Congress chose the minorities according to what suited them at a particular time. Before the present elections they included the Jats among 'Other Backward Classes'. Congress was a divisive force and it is good that it is finished for good, thanks to their heir-apparent, Rahul Gandhi. The boy destroyed Congress single-handedly.

But why did Congress choose Muslims in particular? Is it because it is a particularly large minority? Same as the 'untouchables'?

and regarding the Sikh genocide, Punjab Suba was a met demand but it was in the 1950s. Anandpur Sahib Resolution I do not know too much about but the Sikhs felt strongly about it for it to escalate. I assume that the Punjab Suba movement was to preserve Sikhism and Punjabi culture but what was Anandpur Sahib for? Did the Sikhs say 'we want either Anandpur Sahib passed or give us Khalistan ?'

Is this an example of Congress' corruption - selectively choosing minorities?

and if a Punjabi speaker could 'back me up' on this. What makes Sant Ji any better than bin Laden, Khomeini or Arafat?

About one occasion when he met Sant Bhindranwale, Khushwant Singh reports : ‘Bhindranwale’s short speech was largely addressed to me as I had been hauled out of the congregation to sit on the dais. He towered above me; a steel arrow in one hand, the microphone in the other. Pointing to me he said: “This Sardar Sahib here writes that I spread hatred between Hindus and Sikhs. This is wrong. What I do is to preach the gospel of the Gurus; I do amrit parchar and persuade young Sikhs to stop clipping their beards, stop smoking and drinking. If I had my way, I would get hold of all these Sardars who drink bhisky-shisky in the evening, pour kerosene oil on them, and set the bloody lot ablaze.” This statement was greeted with loud acclamations of boley so nihal! Sat Sri Akal. It was ironic that more than half the Sardars sitting on the dais with me, and a sizable proportion of the peasant audience, were hard-drinking men.’ We have not been able to locate these comments in any of Sant Bhindranwale’s speeches available to us. Sant Bhindranwale’s speeches indicate that he hardly knew Khushwant Singh. In any case, the following statements by Sant Bhindranwale regarding consumption of alcohol appear to completely contradict Khushwant Singh’s report: ‘I have declared that if there is someone who drinks while wearing a kirpaan, and you catch him drunk, the punishment I have announced is that you should get him examined by a doctor (to make sure he has been drinking) and then pour kerosene over him and burn him alive. I shall fight your court case. This is regardless of the party affiliation of the person in such a garb doing such a thing. My appeal to all is that no one should drink but this does not apply to the others, it is only for those with the kirpaan. … If any raagi, sant, mahatma, granthi even if he is from Bhindranwale (group), who wears a kirpaan and drinks, wherever you find him, blacken his face, put a garland of old shoes around his neck, put him on a donkey and parade him throughout the village or the district.’ Contrary to Khushwant Singh’s diatribe, Sant Bhindranwale never held out any punishment for persons like him. His appeal was only for those with the kirpaan. It did not apply to the others. His disapproval was limited to hypocritical Sikh preachers who themselves violated the Sikh Rehit Maryada. Quoting the following line from Siri Guru Granth Sahib, “First the noose was placed around the teacher’s (neck) and later around the (necks) of the disciples”, he explained: ‘The noose will be put around the necks of the jathedars, the sants, the leaders, and people in responsible positions; around the necks of such of them as use intoxicants.’ Sant Bhindranwale’s use of the words ‘pouring kerosene and setting the on fire’ is merely a common Punjabi idiom equivalent to ‘chewing somebody up’ in colloquial English. In Punjab villages, mothers would often use this phrase while scolding their children.

If one were to draw a line with 'freedom fighter' on one end and 'terrorist' on another, where would Bhindranwale be?

I'd put it like so

Nelson Mandela-----George Washington------Ayatollah Khomeini-----------Yasser Arafat-----------Ben Gurion--------Menachem Begin------------Osama bin Laden

Freedom Fighter on left terrorist on right

I'd put Bhindranwale at exactly the same place as Khomeini. Because the Shah of Iran wasn't great. And here is something else i'd like a Punjabi to translate properly/ a Sikh to elaborate upon

[youtube]CNwqhTWd8Jw[/youtube]

He didn't really talk about Khomeini/ Iran similarities. Perhaps a Punjabi could help out?

and back to the topic, Udasism is what links Hinduism to Sikhism. That and Punjabi Hindu Sons converted to Sikhism BEFORE the Raj

 

[Aupmanyav]

But why did Congress choose Muslims in particular? Is it because it is a particularly large minority? Same as the 'untouchables'?

Muslims are not 'untouchables'. The Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes get special facilities. 'Other Backward Classes' get some facilities but not equal to SC/St as they are known in India. The Muslim quota where it comes, comes from 'Other Backward Classes', which stands at 27.5 %. Of course, Muslims are heavily wooed by all parties, even the BJP. It was the party that selected APJ Abdul Kalam as President and Justice Hidayatullah as Vice-president. At present Mrs. Najma Heptulla, grand-niece of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad is the Minority Affairs Minister in the BJP government. I expect a few more in the next Cabinet reshuffle.

 

[ronki23]

Muslims are not 'untouchables'. The Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes get special facilities. 'Other Backward Castes' get some facilities but not equal to SC/St as they are known in India. The Muslim Quota where it comes, comes from 'Other Backward Classes', which stands at 27.5 %. Of course, Muslims are heavily wooed by all parties, even the BJP. It was the party that selected APJ Abdul Kalam as President and Justice Hidayatullah as Vice-president. At present Mrs. Najma Heptulla, grand-niece of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad is the Minority Affairs Minister in the BJP government. I expect a few more in the next Cabinet reshuffle.

so you now agree that Santa & Banta Singh, Shabeg Singh, Amrik Singh, Bhindranwale and Chauhan were not Muslims?

By the way, what was Zail Singh's role in India as President? Isn't it an important position or has it now been eclipsed? Because people say Manmohan Singh is a puppet to the Gandhis yet they blame the Gandhis for Blue Star when Zail Singh was President

 

[Treks]

Happy 60th page

Further proof you're not interested in anyone's actual answers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

so you now agree that Santa & Banta Singh, Shabeg Singh, Amrik Singh, Bhindranwale and Chauhan were not Muslims?

By the way, what was Zail Singh's role in India as President? Isn't it an important position or has it now been eclipsed? Because people say Manmohan Singh is a puppet to the Gandhis yet they blame the Gandhis for Blue Star when Zail Singh was President

Congratulations. You have conquered the Everest of stupidity. You are at the peak waving the Pakistani flag. Get a selfi for keeps.

Yes, Indira wanted a person who would do what she wanted and so did Sonia. They found suitable people in Gyani Zail Singh and Manmohan Singh. The position of a President is constitutionally weak in India. A President is more or less a figure-head. A strong person is never selected as a President by the party in power. Sonia made the position of Prime Minister weak too.

 

[ronki23]

Congratulations. You have conquered the Everest of stupidity. You are at the peak waving the Pakistani flag. Get a selfi for keeps.

Yes, Indira wanted a person who would do what she wanted and so did Sonia. They found suitable people in Gyani Zail Singh and Manmohan Singh. The position of a President is constitutionally weak in India. A President is more or less a figure-head. A strong person is never selected as a President by the party in power. Sonia made the position of Prime Minister weak too.

How is it stupidity if you said the majority of Sikh militants (not a bad word) were Pakistani Muslims undercover? I said Santa and Banta, Bhindranwale, Chauhan, Amrik Singh and Shabeg Singh were not Muslims and they were the main people involved in Blue Star.

and I asked you about the President/ Prime Minister thing because Prime Minister is the main position in India but everyone blames Sonia Gandhi for Manmohan Singh's weaknesses as a Prime Minister. And they blame Indira Gandhi and not Zail Singh for Bluestar

 

[ronki23]

Further proof you're not interested in anyone's actual answers.

Who said i'm not. It's just the newer answers aren't given a proper explanation.

1. Hinduism and Sikhism are different religions yet Hindus celebrate Baisakhi and Sikhs celebrate Rakhi and Lohri (I actually don't know what Lohri is about)

2. The first born son of Hindu Punjabi families was made a Sikh- during the British Raj this was for family benefiting having their relative as part of a 'martial race' but in the days of Sikhism's inception this was the case too. And don't say it's because they did it to fight the Mughals because i'm sure there were 'Hindu regiments' like the Rajputs or Gurkhas

3. Both religions celebrate Diwali albeit for different reasons

4. Guru Arjun Dev, Guru Ram Das, Guru Har Krishan named after Arjun, Rama and Krishna

5. Three Gurus' sons choosing Hinduism yet all I get are answers saying 'that's their choice and nothing to do with their fathers'. There must have been a reason they didn't follow Sikhism initially as they could still follow Sikhism even if they weren't made Gurus (some say it was out of protest of not being chosen they chose Hinduism instead)

6. The proponents of Khalistan in the 40s change their mind after seeing the pain of partition, even though the idea came about after they saw Jinnah do it for Muslims. Somehow they all decided to live in a Hindu country except a Muslim one (although this could link to points 1,2 and 5 as the religions have been close)

7. Bhindranwale being seen as a martyr in Sikh eyes and hated by the rest of the world. But I 'opened my eyes' and saw that he took up arms as he was threatened by the government after getting released from prison. No website says he was a bad guy, except one written by a Hindu Punjabi and it's been debunked.Still doesn't explain why:

7.1 He wasn't executed in prison if Gandhi hated him and doesn't explain:

7.2 He chose Harmandir Sahib if he knew it being attacked was a possibility

7.3 Indira Gandhi chose a day where there were thousands of pilgrims

7.4 Those who drink alcohol and smoke should be beaten and paraded around on donkies while Sikhs who do so should be burned alive with kerosene. Unless these are hyperboles?

If we had more Sikhs and Hindu/Muslim PUNJABIs answering questions it would help as i'm 'only' a Gujarati PIO

Off topic but Gujaratis are underrated- Mahatma Gandhi was a Gujarati, Vallabhai Patel was one, and so is Modi. And most African Indians are Gujaratis, as are the infamous Patels. Yet in Britain and abroad, even though Patels are popular, everyone thinks Indians speak PUNJABI or HINDI?!!! Even the Indian students and workers in the West think that people who've been here for decades speak Hindi due to brown skin. Gujarati (considering the father of the nation is Gujarati) should be the third NATIONAL LANGUAGE!!