confUUsed

[cheddarsox]

I like the idea of Unitarian Universalism, and I attended and was very active in a UU congregation for seven years. But after seven years of what felt like spinning my wheels, I left.

After one year away, I went back one Sunday to get a feel for the place and see if it was as I suspected, or if my perception had been colored by my own issues. In the "message" that week, the speaker said at least five times "We're UU, we can believe whatever we want to." to which the congregation (on cue) laughed, clapped and said "Amen".

And I have not been back, because my question for the seven years of my attendance was "So what do you WANT to believe?" (other than the fact the no one is the boss of you?)

We talked about other faiths, and taught the kids how many interesting religions there are all around the world, but never helped them develop their own faith. (Two of my kids were active in the UU church as well, and they agree...they were never encouraged to believe anything or develop a spirituality, the lesson always was about what OTHER people believed.)

The thing is I do have beliefs, and when I'd voice them, people thought it was odd that I bothered with such a thing (after all, aren't we supposed to be rational) or got offended saying that I shouldn't "push" my beliefs on others.

the only belief that seemed to be encouraged at the church (that is what they call themselves, not fellowship but church) is that we are totally free to believe whatever we want...as long as it fits the liberal agenda. There is, apparently, no such thing as rational conservatism EVER, or rational ethics if they encourage a person to not do what they want.

Honestly, the principles seemed to be boiled down to the Wiccan rede...do what you will as long as it harm none, (harm being defined by the individual themselves according to what suits them). And in practice played out as don't ever call someone on their behavior, because that constitutes judging and that is what the Christians do.

The shenanigans that took place and were tolerated due to the 'judge not' rule I found intolerable.

I guess this is amounting to a rant, but it's a rant of frustration. I'd like to be part of what UU is on paper. I'd like to be part of a community that is challenging and respectful and yes, spiritual. But not one that supports "anything goes" behavior under some misguided idea of what "freedom" is.

True freedom is the fruit of self discipline and an understanding of oneself not merely as an individual, but as a member of a larger community that we contribute to and benefit from being a part of.

Does that UU exist out there somewhere?

I got so tired of hearing "finally, a church where I can believe whatever I want" from people.

I think the real role of UU is to encourage people to thoughtful, dynamic responsibility, not to spiritual apathy and self indulgence.

Is this a systemic issue, or did I just happen upon a weak link in the chain?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Your frustration is in dealing with people. Churches are made of people and if you go into one with the expectation that you'll find a bunch enlightened folks existing on a higher plane then you're bound to be disappointed.

 

[Percival]

I certainly hope the kind of church you described is out there, cheddarsox, because I am looking for something similar. I was raised in a faith with strict dogma, and it seemed to place too much stress on believing correctly to be spiritually correct. I felt that a willingness to help out one's fellow human beings and to offer support during difficult times was a more important emphasis. However, when I began exploring different faiths, I found that I became disillusioned with too much "freedom to interpret". I didn't want the rigid, unyielding structure of a dogmatic faith, but I didn't want to feel as if whatever path I chose was irrelevant because they were pretty much all the same thing.

The UU church is one I've been interested in for some time now, though I've yet to visit one. I'm looking forward to hearing from UU members. I would imagine that some churches within the faith would be more conservative than others, since they DO allow for freedom of religious expression. Wanting to be part of a larger whole and help others is not solely a liberal approach. In any case, I wish you much luck in your search.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

UU Churches almost have themes. Here in Houston there's like 5 of them, 8 if you go as far as Galveston and Beaumont. Each of the churches is unique and has it's own flavor. There is one that leans towards Pagan, another that is very Humanist and mine is very similar to what I envision Chaos incarnate to be like. If you're lucky enough to live in an area that has multiple choices then I would recommend visiting several to see which congregation feel right for you.

 

[cheddarsox]

I certainly hope the kind of church you described is out there, cheddarsox, because I am looking for something similar. I was raised in a faith with strict dogma, and it seemed to place too much stress on believing correctly to be spiritually correct. I felt that a willingness to help out one's fellow human beings and to offer support during difficult times was a more important emphasis. However, when I began exploring different faiths, I found that I became disillusioned with too much "freedom to interpret". I didn't want the rigid, unyielding structure of a dogmatic faith, but I didn't want to feel as if whatever path I chose was irrelevant because they were pretty much all the same thing.

The UU church is one I've been interested in for some time now, though I've yet to visit one. I'm looking forward to hearing from UU members. I would imagine that some churches within the faith would be more conservative than others, since they DO allow for freedom of religious expression. Wanting to be part of a larger whole and help others is not solely a liberal approach. In any case, I wish you much luck in your search.

After I left the UU, I participated in a local Presbyterian congregation for awhile. I found I have more in common with people who believe something, than with people who are revelling in not having to believe anything.

It is not the liberal/conservative issue I had problems with as much as the lack of...substance. Many people have the "not all who wander are lost" bumper sticker, and I agree...but sometimes the wanderers ARE lost. From the principles, I was led to believe that we are to encourage one another in responsible search for truth, that is what I am hungry for, a challenging and encouraging community. I know those exist, I've been graced to be part of some.

Some of my best church experiences have been in the United Church of Christ, but there are none in our area. That is how we ended up at UU, when we moved here, there were no UCC churches within a reasonable distance.

The next nearest UU church is about 45 minutes away, which is prohibitive to being very active, especially with gas prices these days. I know several people have left our local church to attend that one.

 

[cheddarsox]

UU Churches almost have themes. Here in Houston there's like 5 of them, 8 if you go as far as Galveston and Beaumont. Each of the churches is unique and has it's own flavor. There is one that leans towards Pagan, another that is very Humanist and mine is very similar to what I envision Chaos incarnate to be like. If you're lucky enough to live in an area that has multiple choices then I would recommend visiting several to see which congregation feel right for you.

I thought a lot about your earlier post, that my frustrations are people related. And you make a good point. I need to always examine my own behavior first.

I've been part of other faith communities, and I have a sense of what I am after, and I've experienced it. I guess I am just hoping/wondering if it is found among UU's.

Some of my frustration is just with normal human behavior, but I do think it is fair to expect more from the pulpit than "we can believe whatever we want." I don't think that is what the principles are about. They are not a creed, but they are still challenging and worthwhile and provide a solid foundation that I would be happy to get behind.

As I mentioned, we don't have much in the way of UU options in our locale. I've been away for about two years now...maybe I'll give it another look see.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I've been away for about two years now...maybe I'll give it another look see.

Yes, it's always good to check again and reasses. Also, have you tried a Quaker congregation? They might be more along the lines of what you're looking for.

 

[cheddarsox]

Yes, it's always good to check again and reasses. Also, have you tried a Quaker congregation? They might be more along the lines of what you're looking for.

I've been thinking about that a lot the past six months or so. I need to find out if they have more to their groups than the worship service (in my area). I'm feeling the need for more community in my life just now.

 

[lilithu]

In the "message" that week, the speaker said at least five times "We're UU, we can believe whatever we want to." to which the congregation (on cue) laughed, clapped and said "Amen".

I strongly, STONGLY disagree with this statement. We CANNOT believe whatever we want to. Even a bit of reflection would show how ridiculous that statement is. Are we free to believe that murder and torture is ok??

Cheddarsox, unfortunately, I do not think your former congregation is an isolated case. I too have heard some UUs say such things. In fact, this issue that you raise is exactly what kept me from being a committed UU for years. But when I moved to DC I decided to give UU just one more try. On the first Sunday that I visited my current church, there was an informational meeting after service with the associate minister, and someone said again, "What I like about UU is that we can believe anything we want to." I was just in the middle of rolling my eyes and making a mental note to not come back when the minister asked, "But is that really true?" My ears perked up. She went on to suggest that what we really mean is that we are free to believe what our consciences call us to believe. It was because of Rev. Lynngood that I came back the next week, and then signed the book.

As UUs, we believe in freedom of conscience, which means that we can believe what our consciences call us to believe. We are free to believe what we feel is right. This is a statement of justice - that no one can force you to hold to a creed that your conscience does not affirm. It is not free license to believe whatever feels good at the moment. With freedom always comes responsibility. That is a religion worth getting behind. Otherwise, as you say, what is the point?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

What I like about UU is that we can believe anything we want to.

This is basically just being sloppy and even a bit lazy with communication. People take it for granted that "anything but the bad stuff" is implied. Personally, I agree with you, say what you mean and mean what you say. But I did learn a long time ago that the majority of people aren't that way and are very sloppy with what they say and what it actually means. Of course you would expect a little better from a minister and I'm glad you found a good one.

 

[lilithu]

This is basically just being sloppy and even a bit lazy with communication. People take it for granted that "anything but the bad stuff" is implied.

This may be true. But it begs the question, what does one consider to be the "bad stuff"?

I used intentionally clear cut examples earlier when I said we can't believe that torture and murder is ok. Of course the vast majority of people would say that one can't believe they're ok. But what about same-sex marriage? What about a woman's right to choose? A lot of people would consider those things to be "bad stuff."

To say "We can believe anything we want." is to say that we don't stand for anything (except for an unrestricted freedom). It's not just lazy communication, it's lazy thinking.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It's not just lazy communication, it's lazy thinking.

Yep, sure is. At least I think so. The thing is, so many people do this. Think about the number of people you know or have met who are guilty of this kind of lazy thinking compared to the number who make the effort to think at all.

I think we assume the UU church will be full of thinkers rather than the lazy sort, (and I do think the ratio of thinkers to non-thinkers is much higher in the UU world), but still, humans are humans. Sometimes I have to work hard at the inherent worth and dignity part.

Have you seen this article from Rev Meg Barnhouse:

uuworld.org : love can't fix everything

She is not afraid to clarify lazy thinking.

 

[YmirGF]

To say "We can believe anything we want." is to say that we don't stand for anything (except for an unrestricted freedom). It's not just lazy communication, it's lazy thinking.

That reminds me of something Richard Dawkins mentions in "The God Delusion". He talked about the idea that all religions are equally wonderful views of God but was somewhat insistant that by defining them as equally valid necessarily robs each of what makes them unique. The point being, if they are all wonderful, then in fact none of them are special, in any way, compared to the others. This flies in the face of simple fact that (practically) all religions openly claim that they are unique and have THE "hot line" to "god/nirvana or whatever".

What puzzles me about the UU boat is how it is deemed to be meaningful to cherry pick the world's religions for their commonalities while consciously ignoring their important and quite non-negotiable differences.

 

[cheddarsox]

What puzzles me about the UU boat is how it is deemed to be meaningful to cherry pick the world's religions for their commonalities while consciously ignoring their important and quite non-negotiable differences.

UU doesn't cherry pick from other religions, at least from what I can tell. They do affirm that there is wisdom and truth to be found in them, and do pick some readings from a variety of faiths...but the readings have to be in line with the seven UU principles.

They don't really pick beliefs though, those, they work out for themselves, wrestling with both the hard cold facts, and the human element of various situations. They allow themselves to be informed by other faiths, and the ethical thinking that has been done in other faiths, but commit to none of them, except as useful information to consider.

When UU works, when people are willing to do the work of challenging themselves and others to be informed, to work together in spite of differences, to make the principles something more than a filler of space in the bulletin...it is a beautiful thing.

I know UU serves as a haven for many people fleeing some versions of Christianity, or other faiths that don't encourage thinking, and try to enforce conformity. And that is a good thing, to serve in that role. But that is not the main role/purpose or goal of UU. It is easy for congregations to succumb to being the "non-Christian" alternative in an area, rather than being truly UU. It's important to provide healing to hurting people, but also important to provide sustenance and challenge to grow.

UU HAS a backbone, it is not a mish mash of beliefs or practices chosen from other faiths, it IS it's own thing. Which is why it is so alarming and disappointing when that thing is watered down to "we can believe whatever we want".

And sometimes there is an inherent egotism that isolates UU's and causes them to try to be everything to everyone. They have a tendency to think they are the only liberal game in town. They see themselves as the one and only hope for all those hurting thinkers out there, and sometimes play that up more than they should.

I've belonged to a number of liberal faith communities. UU has a lot to offer, but it's not the only religious option for intelligent people, liberal people, or non-Christian people. It is not the fellowship of the last resort, that has to play chameleon or mock other faiths, or insult other faiths to hold onto it's own. But too often it resorts to that.

I have heard way more about how UU is not like them, than I've heard about what UU actually is.

 

[cheddarsox]

To say "We can believe anything we want." is to say that we don't stand for anything (except for an unrestricted freedom). It's not just lazy communication, it's lazy thinking.

I think this lazy thinking is exactly what UU promises to challenge in it's members. When it fails there, the rest is pretty much done for.

My kids participated in religious ed there for years and their UU elevator speech is "we can believe whatever we want". They can tell you what Buddhists believe, and all about several interesting Jewish holidays, and about some pagan beliefs...they learned about those, but they don't know what a UU believes.

When that is what is being preached from the pulpit, and that is what gets the congregation to applaud...it's more than lazy communication or thinking, it's reinforcing exactly the opposite of what UU stands for.

 

[YmirGF]

UU doesn't cherry pick from other religions, at least from what I can tell. They do affirm that there is wisdom and truth to be found in them, and do pick some readings from a variety of faiths...but the readings have to be in line with the seven UU principles.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply cheddar, but how exactly is this process NOT "cherry picking", if elements are chosen that adhere to a preformatted set of principles? That would almost seem to be the very definition.

 

[lilithu]

What puzzles me about the UU boat is how it is deemed to be meaningful to cherry pick the world's religions for their commonalities while consciously ignoring their important and quite non-negotiable differences.

What puzzles me is how you feel confident to continue to criticize other traditions without really knowing what they're about. UU affirms that there is truth in the world's religions - ie, that there is something meaningful and worthwhile in traditions of various sources. That is not the same thing as saying that they're all the same.

 

[zenzero]

Friend cheddarsox,

confUUsed

Sorry, you may keep shifting organisations the end result may remain the same.
Because. The root of all problems lie within our own minds.
We are guided by our own minds and are its prisioner, which we do not accept.
Besides it is difficult to reach god through the same mind which needs to be quitened or stilled to reach him.
The only way is meditation.
Love & rgds

 

[Father Heathen]

I think the UU is supposed to be about exploring and developing your own personal path rather than have a pre-canned path spoon-fed to you (i.e. just passively sit back and be indoctrinated).

 

[Storm]

I think the UU is supposed to be about exploring and developing your own personal path rather than have a pre-canned path spoon-fed to you (i.e. just passively sit back and be indoctrinated).

Exactly so, as stated in the Third and Fourth Principles:

• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning