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confUUsed

applewuud

Active Member
...anyway...I am TRYING to give this church/faith another chance...but I get these e-mails that scream "Stay Away!Lest you be swept into the river of nonsense."

And now, the minister has decided to alter her sabbatical...instead of taking off six months in one year, she's going to give herself two extra months of vacation..for the next three years! How creative! How UU!

Just curious: Who's sending you those emails? Other former members of that church? Or people from outside? Are they secular or Christian?

It bears noting that when CUUPS was petitioning to be an authorized group in the UUA, a former president of the Association gave a controversial speech at General Assembly where he said something like, "the world already looks at Unitarian Universalism as a fringe movement, and this will confirm their prejudice and cause us to be discounted as a serious religious movement". (Anyone who can dig up the right quote?) So, rest assured there are other UUs who aren't comfortable with pagan ideas.

For myself, the CUUPS group in my church is very centered and brings their worship experience to us periodically; I enjoy it and am open to it, although some friends I have brought to those worships roll their eyes. :cover: I make a point that this is just one aspect of being open to the deeply felt values of others, and they shouldn't judge us on that one service. It's just one color of the rainbow.

As for the minister...sounds like she's in trouble. Churches [of all denominations] are notorious for getting rid of ministers after a long sabbatical...which is specifically against a minister's standard contract...and she might be defensive in not being away for too long continuously. Or, trying to keep the momentum going in a congregation where a majority seem to need a ministerial presence.
 
Just curious: Who's sending you those emails? Other former members of that church? Or people from outside? Are they secular or Christian?

It bears noting that when CUUPS was petitioning to be an authorized group in the UUA, a former president of the Association gave a controversial speech at General Assembly where he said something like, "the world already looks at Unitarian Universalism as a fringe movement, and this will confirm their prejudice and cause us to be discounted as a serious religious movement". (Anyone who can dig up the right quote?) So, rest assured there are other UUs who aren't comfortable with pagan ideas.

For myself, the CUUPS group in my church is very centered and brings their worship experience to us periodically; I enjoy it and am open to it, although some friends I have brought to those worships roll their eyes. :cover: I make a point that this is just one aspect of being open to the deeply felt values of others, and they shouldn't judge us on that one service. It's just one color of the rainbow.

As for the minister...sounds like she's in trouble. Churches [of all denominations] are notorious for getting rid of ministers after a long sabbatical...which is specifically against a minister's standard contract...and she might be defensive in not being away for too long continuously. Or, trying to keep the momentum going in a congregation where a majority seem to need a ministerial presence.

I get some of the e-mails via CUUPs, other info through the newsletter that comes to the home because my hubby is a member.

I don't have an issue that there is a pagan group, I AM pagan, what upsets me is that the CUUPs group is "doing whatever they want"...I mean...Egyptians didn't do Yule. Willy nilly mixing of other religion's traditions doesn't support a free and responsible search for truth.

Anyway...I think I am coming to the conclusion, all over again, that this really isn't where I belong. I hate that, I miss the people, but I can't seem to get past some of these other issues.

I went to a discussion group at the church the other night (very nice by the way) and an old friend was there and she asked me back to her place and said how much she and some other old friends wish I'd come back.

I told her about a few of the things I was having trouble accepting, and she said "Yeah,I just accept that I'm not going to get my spiritual needs met there, I just go completely for the social aspects, the people and the sub groups that are interesting"
And she wants me to do the same.

I am under the delusion than UU does have something to do with spirituality, and that a place that calls itself a church and belongs to the UUA should hold itself to higher standards. I am sad that many longtime UU's who attend there seem to have given up on many aspects of it. Maybe I am way too idealistic?

Anyway, in my current state, I have nothing to offer them but a headache, and it has already been made clear to me that me and my concerns are welcome to either shut up or stay away.
 

krishnano

Member
I always had an interest in the UU philosophy, and I did attend a church community, although I did feel that it was rather dry for my taste. I was always afraid that its ideals in its values can be easily misconstrued, and that apathy in spiritual inquisition rather than the strive towards self-realisation would be easily adopted.

Being a Hare Krishna, our philosophy is by nature fundamentalistic, and I would not be able to balance between the two. In any case, I have profound respect for the UU church, and I regret not having been part of it and exploring, and even identifying as a UU myself, despite the seeming problems that you are describing right now.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Cheddarsox,
I am under the delusion than UU does have something to do with spirituality, and that a place that calls itself a church and belongs to the UUA should hold itself to higher standards. I am sad that many longtime UU's who attend there seem to have given up on many aspects of it. Maybe I am way too idealistic?

You have to understand what religion is all about. Though you have problems about your church discussing things that you may feel not spiritual or religious then must say that RF is also similar where everyone is open to anything like this big universe which is so diverse that it takes courage to accept that they exists; but one cannot close their eyes and wish them away.
Religion is about doing what you feel is right. If you meet with your friends and behave what is proper and participate in whatever is correct to you am sure none will object to that.
Remember you accept that you are an idealist so one has to be REAL.
Wake Up! and get Real!
Love & rgds
 
Friend Cheddarsox,


You have to understand what religion is all about. Though you have problems about your church discussing things that you may feel not spiritual or religious then must say that RF is also similar where everyone is open to anything like this big universe which is so diverse that it takes courage to accept that they exists; but one cannot close their eyes and wish them away.
Religion is about doing what you feel is right. If you meet with your friends and behave what is proper and participate in whatever is correct to you am sure none will object to that.
Remember you accept that you are an idealist so one has to be REAL.
Wake Up! and get Real!
Love & rgds

I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

I do not feel I am wishing anything away, but maybe I lack perspective to see what I am doing.

I know I AM wishing that even when we do not/cannot live up to the ideals of the tradition we choose, we are still striving, that we still hold those ideals before us as a guide, rather than say "eh, we'll never achieve them, so let's just have fun, shall we?"

I don't think striving is unrealistic.

Otherwise, what is the point of gathering in faith communities if we are not going to establish some sort of ideals and encourage one another to reach them? Maybe that is where I am idealistic, in thinking that is the purpose of real time faith communities, that pursuit and encouragement in our own freely chosen ideals.
 

applewuud

Active Member
...I told her about a few of the things I was having trouble accepting, and she said "Yeah,I just accept that I'm not going to get my spiritual needs met there, I just go completely for the social aspects, the people and the sub groups that are interesting"
And she wants me to do the same.

I am under the delusion than UU does have something to do with spirituality, and that a place that calls itself a church and belongs to the UUA should hold itself to higher standards. I am sad that many longtime UU's who attend there seem to have given up on many aspects of it. Maybe I am way too idealistic?

This is a really important thread for Unitarian Universalists, because it's an underlying problem for us to address. In a religion that has a strong humanist component, how do we define "spiritual needs" and "spirituality"? I don't think we've "given up" on that aspect, but we are struggling to meet those needs consistently.

I believe that "spirituality" involves a feeling of contact with something larger and transcendent, something mysterious and infinite, and then acting upon those feelings in the world. But it's in the nature of human beings to personify and objectify our ideas...to worship the rock, not what made the rock; confusing the symbol with what is signified; and to repeat ritualistically the behaviors that gave us that feeling of transcendence even when our feelings have moved on and the rituals have become empty.

A lot of people who come to UU churches and fellowships have, as a spiritual act, become aware of the limitations of objectifying spirituality. A key element of their quest for truth and a higher standard is to reject theologies, symbols, and rituals that have become empty for them and don't truly represent the transcendent. The desire for transcendence is still there, but focused on the rejection of old limitations on where we could look for it, e.g., only in the Bible, only through Jesus, only through a literal, personal God, only through lighting incense and drawing pentagrams in the forest.

The problem of a "spiritual deficit" is that if we reject any use of symbols or ritual at all, we're deprived of the poetry that allows us to evoke deep feeling. Others play with and misappropriate the ideas, rituals and symbols of cultures we don't understand very deeply--as you're seeing with burning Yule logs in an Egyptian ceremony.* In that sense, we're just repeating the problem of confusing the symbol with the symbolized, but it seems fresh and helps us to "directly experience that transcending mystery and wonder" because it is new to us.

More particularly, why do people see spirituality as NOT social, not involved with interesting people and sub groups? The UU theologian James Luther Adams said, "by their groups ye shall know them", e.g., true spirituality has to be forged in the fire of a social association. As difficult it is to deal with, it is the heart of congregational religion. It's fair to say that Unitarian-Universalists may have times when we are "spiritual" all by ourselves, going on retreat to have contact with those deeper streams within; but if we don't feel it's also spiritual to come back into community with others and work to forge common ideals and actions, Unitarian-Universalism isn't the place for us.

Going from the theoretical to the personal, it sounds like you have a problem with the minister. What's that about? Does the minister not offer any ideas from the pulpit that connect in any transcendent way? Or is it that the community has let her "take over" instead of being co-ministers with her? :confused:


*Footnote: There is some kind of theological connection between ancient Celtic rites and the Egyptian forms of worship...so I would allow the possibility that there's more to this than we think.
 
This is a really important thread for Unitarian Universalists. In a religion that has a strong humanist component, how do we define "spiritual needs" and "spirituality"?

I agree, this is an important thread. Part of my struggle is between UUism as a faith, and how it is played out in my local church. Our family receives the "World" magazine, and I've read up on UUism, so I feel I have a sense of what it is about, what it seeks to be as an organization and as a faith movement. I have a lot of respect for that.

Spirituality is a tricky word, it means different things to different people, and there is conflict within UUism about what it is and how much energy should be put into it as a congregation...should the congregation support people to privately develop their spirituality while spending fellowship time to address more humanistic concerns, or should the congregation use fellowship time to try to provide spiritual experience for the group.

One of my issues with the local congregation is that it has chosen to call itself a church, rather than fellowship. When this is brought up, that maybe "fellowship" would be a more appropriate term for the group, it is argued that "church" will attract more people from the area due to the culture,even if it is not an accurate description of the group. Same with calling the Sunday meeting time "Worship Service" rather than "fellowship time" or "meeting time",they use the term to entice people in.
I believe that "spirituality" involves a feeling of contact with something larger and transcendent, something mysterious and infinite, and then acting upon those feelings in the world. But it's in the nature of human beings to personify and objectify our ideas...to worship the rock, not what made the rock; confusing the symbol with what is signified; and to repeat ritualistically the behaviors that gave us that feeling of transcendence even when our feelings have moved on and the rituals have become empty.

A lot of people who come to UU churches and fellowships have, as a spiritual act, become aware of the limitations of objectifying spirituality. A key element of their quest for truth and a higher standard is to reject theologies, symbols, and rituals that have become empty for them and don't truly represent the transcendent. The desire for transcendence is still there, but focused on the rejection of old limitations on where we could look for it, e.g., only in the Bible, only through Jesus, only through a literal, personal God, only through lighting incense and drawing pentagrams in the forest.

The problem of a "spiritual deficit" is that if we reject any use of symbols or ritual at all, we're deprived of the poetry that allows us to evoke deep feeling. Others play with and misappropriate the ideas, rituals and symbols of cultures we don't understand very deeply--as you're seeing with burning Yule logs in an Egyptian ceremony.* In that sense, we're just repeating the problem of confusing the symbol with the symbolized, but it seems fresh and helps us to "directly experience that transcending mystery and wonder" because it is new to us.

I see what you mean about this,it's a sort of spiritual angst, like a twentysomething rejecting the "tired" ways of their parents, but not sure what to replace it with, and also feeling nostalgic and remembering that some of the stuff their family did was sort of cool,trying to find a way to make the old stuff new, and hang onto the genuinely real feelings that some of those old ways stirred up.

It's like tofurkey...wanting to adopt new ways, for genuine and valid reasons, but not wanting to let go of the familiar tastes and textures either.

More particularly, why do people see spirituality as NOT social, not involved with interesting people and sub groups? The UU theologian James Luther Adams said, "by their groups ye shall know them", e.g., true spirituality has to be forged in the fire of a social association. As difficult it is to deal with, it is the heart of congregational religion. It's fair to say that Unitarian-Universalists may have times when we are "spiritual" all by ourselves, going on retreat to have contact with those deeper streams within; but if we don't feel it's also spiritual to come back into community with others and work to forge common ideals and actions, Unitarian-Universalism isn't the place for us.

I do find it spiritually satisfying to join with others on all sorts of topics and tasks. I had some deeply "connected" times in that congregation setting up for the Unicef Halloween Carnival, discussing...well, almost anything, etc. I think in the end what kills this is an overload of self conciousness...like learning to ride a bike, we do fine until we realize that we're doing it on our own, and then we start thinking too hard and CRASH! Sometimes too much analysis, too much assessment, etc end up killing the thing it's trying to support.

We had a interim minister that really worked us over. We had assessment workshops and leadership trainings and video series identifying the different "types" of people in congregations and we labeled ourselves and one another, and we found out we were doing everything wrong according to some smart person's standards and we were told to change things just for the sake of changing them to see how we responded, and,we discovered how dysfunctional we were. And then somehow we were supposed to put ourselves back together again, but I'm not sure that last part ever happened.

Going from the theoretical to the personal, it sounds like you have a problem with the minister. What's that about? Does the minister not offer any ideas from the pulpit that connect in any transcendent way? Or is it that the community has let her "take over" instead of being co-ministers with her? :confused:


*Footnote: There is some kind of theological connection between ancient Celtic rites and the Egyptian forms of worship...so I would allow the possibility that there's more to this than we think.

That whole thing is complicated. I had some "personal" issues, in the sense that I don't agree with some of the minister's views and ways of doing things, fair enough. I was still able to function and serve and not let my personal issues stop me from participating. But what did me in is the relationship between the minister and the congregation. I think it has abdicated way too much of it's identity to this one person.

I have removed myself personally, but when I hear some of the things going on between the minister and the congregation, via my spouse, who serves on committees, etc I can't believe intelligent people are allowing these things to happen. When I ask if others think some of this stuff is ridiculous, he says yes, many people recognize the same things I do...but no one is willing to make an issue of it. Or when someone does bring it up, the minister's supporters rush in and say "don't you realize how lucky we are to have them?!" and shuts the discussion down.

My friend tells me to just ignore all that, but I don't seem able or willing to do so. I guess that is my issue, I can't just make nice while I see things going on that I think are bad for the church, I think it's irresponsible to do so.

I had a friend there, a lifelong UU, who I discussed several issues with before I stopped participating. She agreed with me, that these things were serious,ongoing issues, but she was raised UU and wants her kids to be raised UU and this is the only congregation in town...so, she's not going to make trouble.

I've heard the quote many times from that church's own pulpit "The only thing neccessary for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing"...and while I'm not ready to label these things as "evil"...the rest holds true. There are lots of good people there who, for all sorts of reasons...don't want to make waves.

From all I know of Unitarian Universalism's own history, from the very stories that the ministers of that church have shared from the pulpit, from the forefather's they teach about with pride...not speaking up when one perceives injustice is NOT the UU way, it is the antithesis of UUism!

I see no point in "just going along" when that is precisely what UUism is against. It's not about settling for a comfortable social group, it's all about speaking out, even when one's voice is shaking, for what one believes is just. But after years of doing just that and being told..."yes, but..." I guess I decided I'd leave with my principles intact rather than cave to taking the easy route.

I know it sounds like I'm being a spoiled child, demanding my way, but I've spoken to so many long time members, lifelong UU's, etc in that very congregation that tell me that I am seeing things clearly...but...They haven't told me I'm wrong, or that the situations are not an issue, they agree they are, but then suggest maybe it's not worth it to confront them.

They say the congregation needs to be a safe haven for people fleeing other religions. But I don't think that is what UU is about. It's not the "whatever you need us to be" faith for the disenchanted, it has a set of strong and challenging principles. It's about rolling up our sleeves and doing the hard work others shy away from, not about keeping quiet so no one's feelings get hurt.

Or, at least that is what I was led to believe.

It's not about doing whats fun or creative or inclusiveor easy, it's about doing what's right, according to the principles.

Or have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
 

applewuud

Active Member
No, your interpretation seems right on.

The ministry issue you're describing is extremely difficult to navigate. My bias tends to be the other way--that UU congregations are better off with professional leaders that get to set their own tone. It's their whole life, after all, and only Sundays for us. Any minister doing their job will always rub some people the wrong way, and after any ministerial transition 5% or so will leave.

But you are in a difficult situation. It is better, in my experience, for "dissenters" to be open, and never work behind the scenes. Otherwise, the whole church and ministry blows up. There is a point in an organization when we've lost to the majority, or to the leader, and we can either decide to separate ourselves, or "just go along". Fight your battle, make your points, and then, majority rules. It's one thing to dissent, and quite another to undermine a minister. The latter just leads to pain even if the minister leaves...people who liked her will resent you and you'll be out of community even worse.

The best model for the future is to have a covenant between the minister and congregation, so the minister always has a bit of distance and lets the congregation grow, instead of being dependent. But this kind of ministry runs counter to the traditional role people want ministers to play, and that most ministers are expecting when they start their career.
 
No, your interpretation seems right on.

The ministry issue you're describing is extremely difficult to navigate. My bias tends to be the other way--that UU congregations are better off with professional leaders that get to set their own tone. It's their whole life, after all, and only Sundays for us. Any minister doing their job will always rub some people the wrong way, and after any ministerial transition 5% or so will leave.

But you are in a difficult situation. It is better, in my experience, for "dissenters" to be open, and never work behind the scenes. Otherwise, the whole church and ministry blows up. There is a point in an organization when we've lost to the majority, or to the leader, and we can either decide to separate ourselves, or "just go along". Fight your battle, make your points, and then, majority rules. It's one thing to dissent, and quite another to undermine a minister. The latter just leads to pain even if the minister leaves...people who liked her will resent you and you'll be out of community even worse.

The best model for the future is to have a covenant between the minister and congregation, so the minister always has a bit of distance and lets the congregation grow, instead of being dependent. But this kind of ministry runs counter to the traditional role people want ministers to play, and that most ministers are expecting when they start their career.

I really can't go into the situation with the minister and the church on a public forum. The minister is a well known professional member of the UU community, and it's not my desire to defame someone in that way. There are some serious issues, that have nothing to do with me, taking place. I am long gone. If I knew these things were happening in someone else's church of any denomination, I would be likewise troubled.

One of the problems I see, and that others who are members there see is that the church HAS contracts, covenants, procedures, etc and is not using them. All that seems to be tossed aside lately, and people who say "hey wait...we're not following procedure." get chastised by those around them or told to keep their mouth shut. That is not the minister's issue, that is the church choosing to ignore their own behavioral and procedural covenants with one another. The congregational leaders have allowed this to happen in areas that have to do with the minister and the minister has chosen to take advantage of that.

That was indeed one of my personal frustrations with committee work in that congregation, the lack of willingness to follow procedure. People spent a lot of time, energy and good will to create the procedures, and then more of the same to follow them to create programs, and it's pretty deflating to see all of that ignored and after all one's efforts to see things done another way on someone else's whim. The excuse being "well, you know UU's...lol, it's like herding cats". That is what I mean about people demanding so little of themselves and having such sorry expectations within the congregation. Their idea of UUism truly IS. "we can do/believe whatever we want", they don't even care to respect what they themselves agreed upon and covenanted with one another to do. I am not kidding, I have heard "lack of commitment" labeled a UU trait there.

The minister has repeatedly preached that UU's will automatically do the opposite of anything someone tells them to do, so instead, everything must be couched in terms of suggestions. The entire idea is that UU's are anarchists that refuse all rules and council, including their own. And again, that is NOT the history of UUism, it is a mockery. On the one hand they parade about the stories of UU forerunners, who have shown great commitment and sacrifice in the name of social justice...while laughing over their coffee about how uncommitted and disorganized they are, but, oh well, you know how Unitarians are...

I disagree, I think UUism is not about caving in to our human weaknesses, but rather reaching out to help one another be the best that we can be, constantly encouraging all people to a higher standard, not reveling in liberality for liberality's sake, but working for true freedom for all.

I spoke my piece and bowed out. Other's have seen what has happened to those who spoke up, and they want to stay in the congregation, so they shut up. That's the dynamic. Accept it or leave. I don't think that is healthy. I was willing to accept that I might just have been one of those 5% who find they don't like the "new order" and drift away. From what I hear of things taking place, by people who are involved in the leadership of the congregation, it goes deeper than that.

I guess they will either choose to act or not. It's their church now. I'd like to go back, I'd like to be part of something meaningful, but I find it's not in my personality to contribute time, energy, good will and money to an organization that has no respect for it's own process. It's like throwing money down a well, hoping a wish will be granted.

Thanks for hashing this out with me.
 
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