Connecticut School Shooting

[Enoch07]

Last night while speaking with a friend I thought it would be a good idea to have one or two cops/soldiers armed and on duty to deter and or stop any more senseless attacks like in Newton. But now after being alone with my thoughts for a few hours, I am afraid that while it would work at first, eventually it would only lead to an escalated event, with even more death. Because eventually someone would involve one or more people, and bring heavier firepower to help them overtake the cop(s).

More stringent gun laws/background checks (even though I am all for background checks) would have done absolutely nothing to change anything in Newton had they been in place before this tragedy. Had the mother locked the firearms away in a safe the boy would have just tortured here to get the combination/key before killing her and then steal her weapons. If AR-15's were banned she would have had something else in its place probably same caliber, semi-automatic, only difference is the number of bullets in the magazine. The number of bullets in a magazine is a moot point in itself. Whether he carried 3-30 round magazines, 5-20 round magazines, or 10-10 round magazines, it would have not made much of a difference. You would still be looking at the same result probably with even more death, because he would waste less ammo on superfluous shots, to avoid reloading so often.

The people of CT are just lucky the kid did not know how to obtain fully automatic weapons or this could have been much much worse. Which anybody already involved in illegal activities can do quite easily, which we know most teens are. In fact its just as easy as buying dope and usually the same person can sell you both or at least put you into contact with someone that can as long as you have the cash.

That being said. He used a semi-automatic rifle. That means (for you people ignorant of firearms) that he had to pull the trigger a single time for each shot fired (holding the trigger down does still fire 1 and only 1 shot). There seems to be some confusion as to the difference between semi-auto (most civilian guns AR-15, Chinese SKS, most hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols) which are legal, and full auto (real deal military weapons M-16, AK-47, etc), which are illegal in most states.

The core of the problem lies in the minds of the deranged individuals who commit these horrible acts. Its obvious he wanted to kill for whatever reason, and if not with guns, then a bomb, not a bomb, then poisoning, and on and on. Someone with mass murder on the mind will find a way regardless. This idea that they would resort to knives or clubs is just silly rhetoric.

So the only way to resolve the problem is to stop the individuals. Either with treatment before the act or with force if all else fails.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This reminds me of the infomercials that create imaginary problems and make everyday happening overly-complicated in order to make you think you need whatever they're trying to peddle you.

Sure, metaphors usually are over-exaggerated, doesn't mean they don't have a meaning.

Here on Earth, having a handful of cops on a college campus is more than sufficient enough, having one or two cops was sufficient for my high school and would be at most other grade schools. As for your statement about cops causing way more trouble than armed school teachers, well that's right in line with your some of your other logic I've questioned.

How so? And by trouble I meant governmental, fiscal trouble.

I know what disarming a cop consists of, and your strawman response to it completely avoids trying to answer the points raised.

It wasn't a strawman I'll get back to it in the meantime

Let's see here, you have teachers in every school becoming amateur gunslingers, and hundreds of kids with very potential access to dozens of firearms...does anyone really need to connect the dots for you and explain why that's a very bad idea?

Teachers should be trained, obviously, just as they are trained to use computers.

Really, I don't think a kid is ridiculous enough to take a firearm from a teacher, if one does, the same thing would happen if a preschooler took a gun out of the police officer's holder.

As someone who owns well over 1000 comics and has worked a a comic book store, comic books are entertainment first and philosophical cliff notes a distant second.

Have you heard "Entertainers lie to tell the truth, the government lies to tell lies"? You keep forgetting the first part of that phrase.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

In fact, I actually already got back to the post you complained was a strawman; I never dodged it.

It doesn't make sense to have someone who lives three blocks away from you to have a gun to protect you in case of somebody breaking into your house with a gun, when you could simply have a gun yourself and protect yourself BEFORE anything goes down.

 

[Iti oj]

Last night while speaking with a friend I thought it would be a good idea to have one or two cops/soldiers armed and on duty to deter and or stop any more senseless attacks like in Newton. But now after being alone with my thoughts for a few hours, I am afraid that while it would work at first, eventually it would only lead to an escalated event, with even more death. Because eventually someone would involve one or more people, and bring heavier firepower to help them overtake the cop(s).

More stringent gun laws/background checks (even though I am all for background checks) would have done absolutely nothing to change anything in Newton had they been in place before this tragedy. Had the mother locked the firearms away in a safe the boy would have just tortured here to get the combination/key before killing her and then steal her weapons. If AR-15's were banned she would have had something else in its place probably same caliber, semi-automatic, only difference is the number of bullets in the magazine. The number of bullets in a magazine is a moot point in itself. Whether he carried 3-30 round magazines, 5-20 round magazines, or 10-10 round magazines, it would have not made much of a difference. You would still be looking at the same result probably with even more death, because he would waste less ammo on superfluous shots, to avoid reloading so often.

The people of CT are just lucky the kid did not know how to obtain fully automatic weapons or this could have been much much worse. Which anybody already involved in illegal activities can do quite easily, which we know most teens are. In fact its just as easy as buying dope and usually the same person can sell you both or at least put you into contact with someone that can as long as you have the cash.

That being said. He used a semi-automatic rifle. That means (for you people ignorant of firearms) that he had to pull the trigger a single time for each shot fired (holding the trigger down does still fire 1 and only 1 shot). There seems to be some confusion as to the difference between semi-auto (most civilian guns AR-15, Chinese SKS, most hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols) which are legal, and full auto (real deal military weapons M-16, AK-47, etc), which are illegal in most states.

The core of the problem lies in the minds of the deranged individuals who commit these horrible acts. Its obvious he wanted to kill for whatever reason, and if not with guns, then a bomb, not a bomb, then poisoning, and on and on. Someone with mass murder on the mind will find a way regardless. This idea that they would resort to knives or clubs is just silly rhetoric.

So the only way to resolve the problem is to stop the individuals. Either with treatment before the act or with force if all else fails.

thank you for sharing. I found your thoughts open honest and comprehensive ...though the fact that i agree may color my view...

 

[Iti oj]

I posted this else where and.i know a gun in a car trunk would not have helped but. Ever hear of the pear river ms shooter who was stopped by a principle with a gun?

 

[Revoltingest]

I would feel much better about a taser.

A mass murderer would also be pleased as punch to face that instead of a real weapon.
Still, it would be better than nothing.

 

[oldbadger]

A mass murderer would also be pleased as punch to face that instead of a real weapon.
Still, it would be better than nothing.

Hi again......... I wonder whether kevlar-type body armour is insulated against tazers? It might not be.

I think tazer-issue sounds interesting. Mrs Go-lightly could be trained in its use, etc, and if it works through armour (might even work better) then she doesn't have to worry about what to avoid hitting.

I'm off to find out more about military body armour.........

 

[oldbadger]

Ha ha! No! Nearly all body armours are not insulated against Tazers. Which means that a tazer is more useful for a, say, teacher, who would only get occasional retraining, simply because that teacher would not have to worry so much about what part of an assaillant to miss. At this time research is being undertaken into linings which can be added to uniforms and armour to protect police/military from tazer use.

I like tazers a bit more now.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hi again......... I wonder whether kevlar-type body armour is insulated against tazers? It might not be.
I think tazer-issue sounds interesting. Mrs Go-lightly could be trained in its use, etc, and if it works through armour (might even work better) then she doesn't have to worry about what to avoid hitting.
I'm off to find out more about military body armour.........

Body armor could defeat a Taser.....you gotta find skin or thin clothing.
Heavy clothing makes'm less reliable.
How Does a Stun Gun Work Through Clothes? | eHow.com
And you only get one shot.

 

[Rakhel]

I posted this else where and.i know a gun in a car trunk would not have helped but. Ever hear of the pear river ms shooter who was stopped by a principle with a gun?

The story is a little blurred and only partially accurate. It was not Pearl River, MS. It was Pearl, MS. Luke Woodham actually managed to get to Pearl High School, where he did kill to girls, one of which was an ex, and wound 7 other people.
He had planned on going to the junior high school when the Assistant Principal rammed his car into Woodham's mother's car, who was killed earlier in the morning.
Facts, people, Facts.

(I was living just outside of Hattiesburg,MS where the trial took place.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
There is a good 75 mile difference between the two.

 

[Mister_T]

Don't be silly, there is no reason whatsoever that a cop is somehow an expert marksman whom I would trust to shoot an apple off my head. In all the police take downs you've read o lately, there are often a score of bullets fired and one or two hits, at most. Cops are no marksmen, they panic and fire blindly, often first, and being in a position of authority are exactly as likely, if not more so, to shoot someone over their own emotional issues. It happens all the time. Hell, they don't need lethal weapons to do it, since they have other weapons on them, and immunity from prosecution in 90%-odd of the cases.
And a small note: police brutality is certainly part of the issue if it's committed with a firearm.

I never said cops were expert marksman, I said one is more likely to be better with a gun than the other.

You are mischaracterizing the fact that citizens who go through the trouble to get all the red tape permits to own firearms, don't train nor are a conscientious as a cop would be; they did, after all, go through the effort of seeking out ownership, too.
Perhaps you are not exposed to such people, but anecdotally I can tell you that once you receive your permits, there is a sort of duty-like reverence that often comes on the gun owner - no, not in all cases. But still, the fact that you went thru the government to get this license, often imbues the entire zone of interest with the household firearm you now have, with a different solemnity than other things. I also know hunters who go through this.

I am a gun owner and I'm not mischaracterizing anything. It's a simple fact that cops have regular training with a firearm since that is their job requirement, whereas a school teacher wouldn't. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

There's no reason to presume that somehow only military or law personnel somehow get this.

There's plenty of reason. Regular training is one of them.

 

[Mister_T]

A mass murderer would also be pleased as punch to face that instead of a real weapon.
Still, it would be better than nothing.

If they were so worried about getting shot, they wouldn't be doing such a thing in the first place because the cops are going there with the intent to shoot you already.

 

[Mister_T]

This is silly obviously teachers would receive regular training and mental health checks. If this were to be.

The only silly thing I see here is people seriously considering we give teachers guns in a school full of children.

 

[Mister_T]

Teachers should be trained, obviously, just as they are trained to use computers.

Teachers are there to be teachers, not part time commandos.

Really, I don't think a kid is ridiculous enough to take a firearm from a teacher, if one does, the same thing would happen if a preschooler took a gun out of the police officer's holder.

I'm sure teachers think the same thing about locking test answers in there desk, and yet there's always going to be some kids who manage to take those, just like I'm sure the parents of kids who have shot themselves thought there kids wouldn't be able to take their guns and find the bullets, etc. Like I said, you're not living in reality.

Have you heard "Entertainers lie to tell the truth, the government lies to tell lies"? You keep forgetting the first part of that phrase.

I'm not forgetting anything. They're comic books and not based at all in reality. It's called being realistic, something you're obviously not interested in.

In fact, I actually already got back to the post you complained was a strawman; I never dodged it.

That is your strawman, since we were talking about cops on campus compared to teachers, and you're talking about people that " live three blocks away" protecting you. No, not a dodge at all.

 

[Apex]

The only silly thing I see here is people seriously considering we give teachers guns in a school full of children.

I might have missed some posts, but I haven't seen anyone advocate this. A better representation is that individual teachers who wish to CC, may do so provided they go through training that, more than likely, is much more rigorous than your standard CCWP training.

You are describing it as if they are going to hand a gun to every teacher, regardless if they want it or have the training.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Teachers are there to be teachers, not part time commandos.

Isn't the job of a teacher, not only to learn the kids, but also protect them?

I'm sure teachers think the same thing about locking test answers in there desk, and yet there's always going to be some kids who manage to take those, just like I'm sure the parents of kids who have shot themselves thought there kids wouldn't be able to take their guns and find the bullets, etc. Like I said, you're not living in reality.

A kid will only get it if they try hard enough to, and if they try hard enough to get, it's probably because they're trying to kill others, and if they're trying to kill others, they really wouldn't need a gun, like I said earlier.

I'm not forgetting anything. They're comic books and not based at all in reality. It's called being realistic, something you're obviously not interested in.

Well, thanks for being hostile about it.

My point was, in comparison to the joker, in a world with people afraid to kill the criminal without being an officer, an insane man will have the ability to take you out.

If you were a student, and a man breaks into the school with a gun; would you prefer the staff to have guns to shoot him on spot, or to wait for the police to get there, when your life could end at any second between the time the killer gets there and the cops get there.

That is your strawman, since we were talking about cops on campus compared to teachers, and you're talking about people that " live three blocks away" protecting you. No, not a dodge at all.

Please answer it or ignore it

 

[Mister_T]

I might have missed some posts

I think you may have, yes.

A better representation is that individual teachers who wish to CC, may do so provided they go through training that, more than likely, is much more rigorous than your standard CCWP training.

I don't think a teacher should have a gun in any classroom with children period. Keep it locked up in a safe or something in the school office where kids aren't in there by the dozen at the very least, but a gun in a classroom? No, that doesn't fly with me.

You are describing it as if they are going to hand a gun to every teacher, regardless if they want it or have the training.

No I'm not, like I said above there shouldn't be guns sitting all day in any classroom full of children. As for training, whatever training they receive is not going to be no where near the amount that a cop receives, since they have regular firearms training as part of their job, it doesn't take some giant leap in logic to think that a cop is always going to be better with a gun than most of your average gun owners because of that. But that besides the point that teachers are there to be teachers, not marksman.

 

[esmith]

As much as I am in favor of the right to carry I do not advocate that teachers be armed in a classroom. Do any of you that advocate this realize that in a threat environment that the heart rate increases drastically, adrenaline surges in the body and unless you train rigorously a weapon is almost useless. Ask any police officer who has been in a life or death situation with a weapons what their physical and mental conditions were. The majority will tell you that their shot placement was inaccurate. Why do you think that those that deal in these situations, Spec.-Ops for one, train continuously in a high-threat training environments. The mind has to be conditioned to react almost without thinking, this type of training is not possible or desirable for teachers. No arming teachers, or more restrictive gun laws are not the answer. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but if I was armed with a 9mm Glock with a 10 round magazine and had 10 additional magazines readily available how long would it take to go through 111 rounds. The answer is less than a minute. So, what difference would it make if you made the sale of semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 illegal?

 

[Mister_T]

Isn't the job of a teacher, not only to learn the kids, but also protect them?

Yes it is, that's why you don't have a gun in a classroom.

A kid will only get it if they try hard enough to, and if they try hard enough to get, it's probably because they're trying to kill others, and if they're trying to kill others, they really wouldn't need a gun, like I said earlier.

Take a look at all the dead children that got a hold of their parents guns and had a mishap, they obviously tried hard enough. And saying that kids will only try and get guns to kill people is more of your comic book-based reality. Kids are naturally curious, but I keep forgetting that you're not interested in reality.

Well, thanks for being hostile about it.

Calling you out on being intellectually dishonest and being hostile are two different things. No one here is being hostile with you.

My point was, in comparison to the joker, in a world with people afraid to kill the criminal without being an officer, an insane man will have the ability to take you out.

And my point is that it's a comic book, i.e. fantasy meant for entertainment, and not meant for deciding gun policies back here in reality.

If you were a student, and a man breaks into the school with a gun; would you prefer the staff to have guns to shoot him on spot, or to wait for the police to get there, when your life could end at any second between the time the killer gets there and the cops get there.

I'd prefer not to have the far more likely occurrence accidental deaths, than the very rare chance that some nut job is A) going to attack choose my school and attack me, and B) Even if that rare occurrence happens, some how manage to get by the cops patrolling he campus. There is far more accidental gun deaths in this country than there is mass-school shootings, and if you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself, which apparently you are fine with.

Please answer it or ignore it

And now you're dodging your dodges. That's about par for the course.

 

[Mister_T]

As much as I am in favor of the right to carry I do not advocate that teachers be armed in a classroom. Do any of you that advocate this realize that in a threat environment that the heart rate increases drastically, adrenaline surges in the body and unless you train rigorously a weapon is almost useless. Ask any police officer who has been in a life or death situation with a weapons what their physical and mental conditions were. The majority will tell you that their shot placement was inaccurate. Why do you think that those that deal in these situations, Spec.-Ops for one, train continuously in a high-threat training environments. The mind has to be conditioned to react almost without thinking, this type of training is not possible or desirable for teachers. No arming teachers, or more restrictive gun laws are not the answer. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but if I was armed with a 9mm Glock with a 10 round magazine and had 10 additional magazines readily available how long would it take to go through 111 rounds. The answer is less than a minute. So, what difference would it make if you made the sale of semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 illegal?

Exactly. :yes: