Consciousness before physical creation

[Enai de a lukal]

Not at present, can any scientific equipmnt sense consciousness, most people will say it can only be intuitively sensed.

Define consciousness, for starters.

That's why many confuse awareness with the
movements within the brain, which is thought & impulse.

You've yet to show that its a confusion in the first place (if anything the confusion appears to be your own). But there's no better time than now to start.

But its a rational theory. To clarify further only a brain can have
a personality, but everything has silent witnessing.

In what sense is it rational? It appears to be a claim that is not only not supported by any evidence, but is unfalsifiable in principle; thus, it is entirely vacuous, and not at all warranted.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Consciousness can be conceptualized as an omnipresent feild that is the internal witness in all forms.
It is always one with energy, so its never seperate from Nature, like sweetness in a candy.
The subtle aspect of nature as a whole.

Millions of people have experiential evidence, testamony. With reason these people have found words to describe the non dual experience of awareness. You see that you are not "this body" but your "all bodies".

It used to be based solely on faith in experience, but nowadays several conclusions have been theorized based on mathmatics, and astrophysics. Namely Quantum physics, and electromagnetic feild theory.
Im not really qualified to discuss these scientiic aspects in detail, sorry.
But the reason for belief in this theory is experience plus reasonable theories(such as QPh).

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Consciousness can be conceptualized as an omnipresent feild that is the internal witness in all forms.

What is "the eternal witness"? You've just replaced consciousness with an equally ambiguous phrase. Until you just say what you mean, this could go on for a while; eventually, you're going to have to give an explicit definition of what you're talking abiut.

Millions of people have experiential evidence, testamony.

Of what?

It used to be based solely on faith in experience, but nowadays several conclusions have been theorized based on mathmatics, and astrophysics. Namely Quantum physics, and electromagnetic feild theory.

I'm afraid you're going to have to be more specific than that, and so far as I'm aware, there are no credible scientific hypotheses (much less theories) in any of these fields that suggest anything remotely like what you're claiming here.

In any case, this was likely sort of a dodge anyways- rather than answer the tough question, you just point and say "science!" as if this was a magic word. Let's try again. If your claim is that consciousness is some "silent witness" (whatever that means), which can exist apart from any neural or cognitive activity, sensory input, and so on, how could we have tell if this is the case or not; suppose it is true, what would the world look like? What observable differences would exist if this claim were true as opposed to if it were false? If none, then this claim is unfalsifiable and vacuous- it tells us no less and no more than we knew already.

 

[Milton Platt]

Many arguments of the soul can stretch on forever but the most puzzling one is not what happens to the supposed existing soul after death but before life itself.

The soul according to almost all theists is the immortal essence of a person and continues for eternity. If this was so then why is it hard to believe that the soul and spirit end after physical existence?

If god creates the soul and what theists perceive as the true core of conscious experience then why is it hard to believe that god can dismantle and destroy it?

I recall of nobody who remembers the events that occurred while the soul preceded the physical avatar for the body.

Atheists and Deists like myself are looked at in a bizarre fashion for entirely disacknowledging the existence of the soul yet the question still occurs to exist about the relative nature of the soul/spirit's existence before physical life.

I recall interesting theology from Muslims describing the existence of the spirit before entering the dunya and how our soul is born Muslim from the beginning and gives testament that Allah is the only deity before entering the entrapment of the dunya.

This can be said so and indeed such a concept may be true but why would god erase the experience of the soul before casting it into physical existence. If the spirit/soul is the true and primary core of experience then it is absurd to state that the experiences of the soul can be lost. If one looses the foundation for A then one cannot proceed to B.

This destroys the foundation of the purpose and conceive of the soul and spirit outside of physical reality?

Better to actually provide some sort of credible evidence that such a thing exists before deliberating about it's nature???

 

[Runewolf1973]

Life and death do not exist because matter (which is everything basically) neither lives nor dies, it only changes form. We are interactive energy/material forms and we will continue to interact in some way, shape, or form even after that transformation of energy we call death. There is no real "soul", but information and energy is not lost, it is recycled, perhaps even thrown into a different dimension or reality.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Wow, I didn't realize this was an old thread and looking back I see now how some of my ideas have changed since. Before I used to have this idea that consciousness was a part of everything, even matter. I have since realized that consciousness is no more that a complex form of interaction that goes on in the brain. I no longer see consciousness as fundamental. I see interaction as fundamental. Everything in the universe is driven by the Fundamental Interactions and it is from those interactions that all forms and all further complex interactions such as life and consciousness arise.

 

[Milton Platt]

Well, here’s another way to look at it; a more ‘eastern’ view.

The soul is eternal before and after this short life. It transmigrates and reincarnates to advance itself through new challenges. Our soul’s home is on a higher plane/realm of nature. It has memory of all its past incarnations.

If the soul desires further and new experiences on the physical plane for its advancement, it births a new astral form (a realm between the soul and physical planes). This astral form will unite with a fetus and start a new experience. The new human will start as a blank slate with no memories. The soul guides this new form with its development.

What you’re calling ‘memory’ is our normal physical memory which can only include events that happened to that physical body. The soul memory includes all.

And you can support these assertions with what???

 

[George-ananda]

And you can support these assertions with what???

The eastern/Indian wisdom tradition that I accept as the most complete understanding of man's place in the universe (including atheist-materialist views).

Just some of the reasons why I accept this tradition's views over other traditions (including atheist-materialism) are:

The cumulative evidence that paranormal things do occur; Near Death Experiences; Ghost phenomena, Verifiable Reincarnation memories of children; spirit communications, etc..

The quality of the minds and character of many seers/masters who I have studied from that tradition.

The dovetailing of paranormal phenomena actually experienced with the model of the universe held under the tradition.

I don't claim proof but evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

 

[Milton Platt]

The eastern/Indian wisdom tradition that I accept as the most complete understanding of man's place in the universe (including atheist-materialist views).

Even though it is unsupported by any sort of falsifiable evidence?

Just some of the reasons why I accept this tradition's views over other traditions (including atheist-materialism) are:

The cumulative evidence that paranormal things do occur; Near Death Experiences; Ghost phenomena, Verifiable Reincarnation memories of children; spirit communications, etc..

There has never been a scientifically verifiable paranormal occurrence of any kind. Lots of claims, though.

The quality of the minds and character of many seers/masters who I have studied from that tradition.

The dovetailing of paranormal phenomena actually experienced with the model of the universe held under the tradition.

Again, no paranormal phenomena.

I don't claim proof but evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

That is all that is required, even in science. But so far you have only made assertions and not submitted evidence.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The eastern/Indian wisdom tradition that I accept as the most complete understanding of man's place in the universe (including atheist-materialist views).

Just some of the reasons why I accept this tradition's views over other traditions (including atheist-materialism) are:

The cumulative evidence that paranormal things do occur; Near Death Experiences; Ghost phenomena, Verifiable Reincarnation memories of children; spirit communications, etc..

The quality of the minds and character of many seers/masters who I have studied from that tradition.

The dovetailing of paranormal phenomena actually experienced with the model of the universe held under the tradition.

I don't claim proof but evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

According to your traditions, wouldn't these ghosts or spirits amount to nothing more than "illusions" or maya anyways? I thought everything was pure nothingness?

 

[George-ananda]

According to your traditions, wouldn't these ghosts or spirits amount to nothing more than "illusions" or maya anyways? I thought everything was pure nothingness?

You must be confusing me with one of those black-hearted materialist Buddhists on the forum.

I am pretty much the opposite of what you say! We are pure infinite consciousness; being-bliss-awareness. What is illusion/Maya is the sense of separateness (ego) and finite awareness. These ghosts/spirits are the infinite still under the illusion of ego/separateness.

 

[George-ananda]

That is all that is required, even in science. But so far you have only made assertions and not submitted evidence.

The evidence was outlined in my previous post and can not be submitted as a short reply post here as it is the cumulative evidence of millions of human experiences. No one experience would suffice. This evidence would require any interested party to do homework as it is based on cumulative evidence and not a logical argument.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You must be confusing me with one of those black-hearted materialist Buddhists on the forum.

I am pretty much the opposite of what you say! We are pure infinite consciousness; being-bliss-awareness. What is illusion/Maya is the sense of separateness (ego) and finite awareness. These ghosts/spirits are the infinite still under the illusion of ego/separateness.

That's possible. Do you view that Consciousness/Being/Bliss as an active, creative force or aspect of the universe?

 

[George-ananda]

Do you view that Consciousness/Being/Bliss as an active, creative force or aspect of the universe?

Well, even beyond that I would say.

Consciousness/Being/Bliss is all there is. As a creative sport He separates Himself from Himself as becomes all this in Act I. In Act II He returns Himself to Himself (we become One with Brahman; Self-Realization/Brahman-Realization).

 

[Milton Platt]

The evidence was outlined in my previous post and can not be submitted as a short reply post here as it is the cumulative evidence of millions of human experiences. No one experience would suffice. This evidence would require any interested party to do homework as it is based on cumulative evidence and not a logical argument.

Okay, so your arguement is not logical in nature. Shouldn't a good argument be logical??? But I don't need years of cumulative evidence (which I must guess is anecdotal, subjective in nature, not testable, and not falsifiable). I will be happy with a couple of peer reviewed scientific papers (or an article that cites one of them).

 

[George-ananda]

Okay, so your arguement is not logical in nature. Shouldn't a good argument be logical???

Logical arguments and debates about God and the nature of man's existence will end in stalemate. I need evidence from the human experiences analyzed for quantity, quality and consistency and the things I discussed in my previous posts to form my position as to the most reasonable worldview..

But I don't need years of cumulative evidence (which I must guess is anecdotal, subjective in nature, not testable, and not falsifiable). I will be happy with a couple of peer reviewed scientific papers (or an article that cites one of them).

Papers on what exactly? Anyway, such things can be wrestled to a tiring stalemate by people partial to their own worldview and it would be never-ending. At some point we each have to take all the evidence and arguments from all sides and form our own worldview. For me, I believe beyond reasonable doubt that events do occur that are antithetical to the materialist philosophy and that the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition is man's most evolved position. To show this to a skeptic I would have to have lengthy discussions about several types of phenomena, and the lives and teachings of many masters of the Indian tradition. As I already said, this is beyond a single paper or the scope of an RF reply post. Any interested person would have to spend time to do a serious investigation and form their own position.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well, even beyond that I would say.

Consciousness/Being/Bliss is all there is. As a creative sport He separates Himself from Himself as becomes all this in Act I. In Act II He returns Himself to Himself (we become One with Brahman; Self-Realization/Brahman-Realization).

I believe that what is generally referred to as consciousness is a form of interaction. With that said though, there may in fact be an essence or nature to the cosmos that is beyond physical functions and beyond interaction. I am curious about this. I like your views and I think my views may be changing yet again. Thanks.

 

[Donmax]

Many arguments of the soul can stretch on forever but the most puzzling one is not what happens to the supposed existing soul after death but before life itself.

The soul according to almost all theists is the immortal essence of a person and continues for eternity. If this was so then why is it hard to believe that the soul and spirit end after physical existence?

If god creates the soul and what theists perceive as the true core of conscious experience then why is it hard to believe that god can dismantle and destroy it?

I recall of nobody who remembers the events that occurred while the soul preceded the physical avatar for the body.

Atheists and Deists like myself are looked at in a bizarre fashion for entirely disacknowledging the existence of the soul yet the question still occurs to exist about the relative nature of the soul/spirit's existence before physical life.

I recall interesting theology from Muslims describing the existence of the spirit before entering the dunya and how our soul is born Muslim from the beginning and gives testament that Allah is the only deity before entering the entrapment of the dunya.

This can be said so and indeed such a concept may be true but why would god erase the experience of the soul before casting it into physical existence. If the spirit/soul is the true and primary core of experience then it is absurd to state that the experiences of the soul can be lost. If one looses the foundation for A then one cannot proceed to B.

This destroys the foundation of the purpose and conceive of the soul and spirit outside of physical reality?

The key word is past, foundation is a build up of communication that is still searching and won't find the right words because foundation is a build up of communication in other words god wants a conversation

 

[Milton Platt]

Logical arguments and debates about God and the nature of man's existence will end in stalemate. I need evidence from the human experiences analyzed for quantity, quality and consistency and the things I discussed in my previous posts to form my position as to the most reasonable worldview..


Papers on what exactly? Anyway, such things can be wrestled to a tiring stalemate by people partial to their own worldview and it would be never-ending. At some point we each have to take all the evidence and arguments from all sides and form our own worldview. For me, I believe beyond reasonable doubt that events do occur that are antithetical to the materialist philosophy and that the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition is man's most evolved position. To show this to a skeptic I would have to have lengthy discussions about several types of phenomena, and the lives and teachings of many masters of the Indian tradition. As I already said, this is beyond a single paper or the scope of an RF reply post. Any interested person would have to spend time to do a serious investigation and form their own position.

papers supporting your views???

 

[George-ananda]

papers supporting your views???

I am not a person who studies 'papers' ...I am not a scientist.