Consciousness before physical creation

[Milton Platt]

I am not a person who studies 'papers' ...I am not a scientist.

Nor am I but you consistently dodge providing anything but your opinion.

 

[George-ananda]

Nor am I but you consistently dodge providing anything but your opinion.

Well that's been my point; that we consider all information and argumentation and form our own view. What else does anyone do?

Some of the many subjects that have contributed to my opinion are Miracle experiences involving a Spiritual Master I have studied; Near Death Experiences, Veridical Near Death Experiences; Veridical Childhood Reincarnation Memories; Ghostly Phenomena; Spirit Communication; Teachings of numerous spiritual masters; and 10 other things. Each is a lengthy discussion in its own right. Where do you want to start?

 

[Milton Platt]

Well that's been my point; that we consider all information and argumentation and form our own view. What else does anyone do?

Some of the many subjects that have contributed to my opinion are Miracle experiences involving a Spiritual Master I have studied; Near Death Experiences, Veridical Near Death Experiences; Veridical Childhood Reincarnation Memories; Ghostly Phenomena; Spirit Communication; Teachings of numerous spiritual masters; and 10 other things. Each is a lengthy discussion in its own right. Where do you want to start?

You may pick the subject, but stick to verifiable facts and avoid anecdotal information.

 

[George-ananda]

You may pick the subject, but stick to verifiable facts and avoid anecdotal information.

Then I pick the subject 'we shouldn't ignore (nor blindly accept) anecdotal information' as that is how we mostly learn about the world. We analyze for quantity, quality and consistency and determine what we accept and don't accept as reasonable. Science should not use anecdotal evidence that can not be verified and reproduced but I consider everything in an intelligent manner when forming my views and consider science limited in its reach at this time. We can learn from things other than science. At this time science can tell us some details with certainty but it can't tell us much that really matters about the human experience. Human experiences can go places science has no methodology to address.

 

[Milton Platt]

Then I pick the subject 'we shouldn't ignore (nor blindly accept) anecdotal information' as that is how we mostly learn about the world. We analyze for quantity, quality and consistency and determine what we accept and don't accept as reasonable. Science should not use anecdotal evidence that can not be verified and reproduced but I consider everything in an intelligent manner when forming my views and consider science limited in its reach at this time. We can learn from things other than science. At this time science can tell us some details with certainty but it can't tell us much that really matters about the human experience. Human experiences can go places science has no methodology to address.

That was not one of the things you listed as evidence for your beliefs. But it does tie in with your way of thinking.

Anecdotal evidence is one of the weakest forms of evidence. It is not testable and not falsifiable and therefore unreliable. It may be accepted in some cases as supporting once repeatable falsifiable testing has provided a sound theory which can be used to make predictions. But you cannot accept heresay without the ability to test it.

Also, the quantity and quality of evidence varies with the nature of the claim. If you tell me you have a car in your garage I will accept your anecdotal evidence. If you tell me you have a fire breathing dragon in your garage, I will set the evidential bar much much higher. Right now, you are telling me you do have a dragon, so to speak.

 

[George-ananda]

Anecdotal evidence is one of the weakest forms of evidence. It is not testable and not falsifiable and therefore unreliable. It may be accepted in some cases as supporting once repeatable falsifiable testing has provided a sound theory which can be used to make predictions.

Given our inability to test any spontaneous and situational human experiences, the scientific method is not very useful in studying the 'beyond the normal' claims of man. Our best tool at this time is our wise judgment based on our accumulated wisdom about the world. If I see a ghost and it disappears, what kind of falsifiable test is expected? My point is spontaneous and situational experiences can not be dismissed or blindly accepted. We must use our wisdom and consider everything before forming our position.

But you cannot accept heresay without the ability to test it.

I am not saying to accept hearsay. I am saying to 'consider' it with wisdom. Wisdom considers the quantity, quality and consistency of the hearsay using our accumulated personal wisdom.

Also, the quantity and quality of evidence varies with the nature of the claim. If you tell me you have a car in your garage I will accept your anecdotal evidence. If you tell me you have a fire breathing dragon in your garage, I will set the evidential bar much much higher. Right now, you are telling me you do have a dragon, so to speak.

Well, using my wisdom, I would be quick to believe the car is 'highly likely'. I too would believe the 'fire breathing dragon' to be immensely unlikely. That is based on my wisdom gained from experience with the world.


Now I apply this same standard to the millions of ghostly claims in mankind's collective experience and believe things do occur that are antithetical to a materialist worldview. The likelihood that all these experiences (and I have heard some incredibly strong cases) can be fully explained by elements within the materialist worldview I judge to be extremely unlikely. To my judgment the Eastern/Indian wisdom tradition shows how these things (and a dozen more) are just part and parcel of an expanded view of reality.

 

[Milton Platt]

Given our inability to test any spontaneous and situational human experiences, the scientific method is not very useful in studying the 'beyond the normal' claims of man. Our best tool at this time is our wise judgment based on our accumulated wisdom about the world. If I see a ghost and it disappears, what kind of falsifiable test is expected? My point is spontaneous and situational experiences can not be dismissed or blindly accepted. We must use our wisdom and consider everything before forming our position.


I am not saying to accept hearsay. I am saying to 'consider' it with wisdom. Wisdom considers the quantity, quality and consistency of the hearsay using our accumulated personal wisdom.


Well, using my wisdom, I would be quick to believe the car is 'highly likely'. I too would believe the 'fire breathing dragon' to be immensely unlikely. That is based on my wisdom gained from experience with the world.


Now I apply this same standard to the millions of ghostly claims in mankind's collective experience and believe things do occur that are antithetical to a materialist worldview. The likelihood that all these experiences (and I have heard some incredibly strong cases) can be fully explained by elements within the materialist worldview I judge to be extremely unlikely. To my judgment the Eastern/Indian wisdom tradition shows how these things (and a dozen more) are just part and parcel of an expanded view of reality.

Your claim falls into the same category as the fire-breathing dragon. Therefore I cannot accept anecdotal evidence. I have to see the dragon myself under carefully controlled conditions, or I have to see a long history of evidence that is not ambiguous or open to interpretation. So, based on my experience of the world, your claims of the supernatural are no more likely that the dragon. After all, there are numerous anecdotal sources supporting dragons.....

 

[George-ananda]

Therefore I cannot accept anecdotal evidence. I have to see the dragon myself under carefully controlled conditions, or I have to see a long history of evidence that is not ambiguous or open to interpretation. So, based on my experience of the world, your claims of the supernatural are no more likely that the dragon.

Well then I believe you will have an impoverished view of the universe. We learn from intelligently analyzing anecdotal evidence. Yes, the standard for acceptance of 'beyond the normal' phenomena is higher but not unreachable as you imply. Enough credible witnesses combined with our lack of a thorough understanding of the universe means such things can reasonably exist.

After all, there are numerous anecdotal sources supporting dragons.....

I'm not hearing the quantity, quality or consistency in the anecdotal sources for that fire-breathing dragon belief. I do hear the quality, quantity and consistency for ghostly phenomena telling me something antithetical to materialist philosophy is going on. I think if you restrict yourself to what science can reproduce and understand in the laboratory and ignore testimony from the human experience you have impoverished yourself. And don't misinterpret what I'm saying as 'uncritical acceptance'.

 

[Milton Platt]

Well then I believe you will have an impoverished view of the universe. We learn from intelligently analyzing anecdotal evidence. Yes, the standard for acceptance of 'beyond the normal' phenomena is higher but not unreachable as you imply. Enough credible witnesses combined with our lack of a thorough understanding of the universe means such things can reasonably exist.

I'm not hearing the quantity, quality or consistency in the anecdotal sources for that fire-breathing dragon belief. I do hear the quality, quantity and consistency for ghostly phenomena telling me something antithetical to materialist philosophy is going on. I think if you restrict yourself to what science can reproduce and understand in the laboratory and ignore testimony from the human experience you have impoverished yourself. And don't misinterpret what I'm saying as 'uncritical acceptance'.

Well, you are free to label your acceptance of ideas any way you wish. My point is that there is the same kind of evidence for dragons as anything supernatural, meaning there is nothing that can be tested and verified. until that happens, all supernatural claims have equal footing with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

 

[George-ananda]

Well, you are free to label your acceptance of ideas any way you wish. My point is that there is the same kind of evidence for dragons as anything supernatural, meaning there is nothing that can be tested and verified. until that happens, all supernatural claims have equal footing with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

So all the testimony of millions of people as normal as you and me pointing to a phenomena are equivalent to belief in the Easter Bunny? So laboratory science is so complete that it is all we should consider and spontaneous phenomena should be discarded if it can't be reproduced in controlled conditions?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Many arguments of the soul can stretch on forever but the most puzzling one is not what happens to the supposed existing soul after death but before life itself.

The soul according to almost all theists is the immortal essence of a person and continues for eternity. If this was so then why is it hard to believe that the soul and spirit end after physical existence?

If god creates the soul and what theists perceive as the true core of conscious experience then why is it hard to believe that god can dismantle and destroy it?

I recall of nobody who remembers the events that occurred while the soul preceded the physical avatar for the body.

Atheists and Deists like myself are looked at in a bizarre fashion for entirely disacknowledging the existence of the soul yet the question still occurs to exist about the relative nature of the soul/spirit's existence before physical life.

I recall interesting theology from Muslims describing the existence of the spirit before entering the dunya and how our soul is born Muslim from the beginning and gives testament that Allah is the only deity before entering the entrapment of the dunya.

This can be said so and indeed such a concept may be true but why would god erase the experience of the soul before casting it into physical existence. If the spirit/soul is the true and primary core of experience then it is absurd to state that the experiences of the soul can be lost. If one looses the foundation for A then one cannot proceed to B.

This destroys the foundation of the purpose and conceive of the soul and spirit outside of physical reality?

I guess you know Islam is an Abraham religion and similar to Christianity through the old testament until Issac and Ishmael muck it up?
MrMr

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Well, you are free to label your acceptance of ideas any way you wish. My point is that there is the same kind of evidence for dragons as anything supernatural, meaning there is nothing that can be tested and verified. until that happens, all supernatural claims have equal footing with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Science struggles to describe our universe, and it's evidence is as prone to hoax and other failure as is many of its claims, like the existence of Piltdown man for a 40 year example. But even worse for those that allow science to describe reality is the 'many worlds theory'. The MWT is an 'spin-off' from the questionable string theory, as is a related theory ie; 'the many worlds theory' (and the infinite universe theory). These shaky theories tell us it's a sure thing that Unicorns and the Easter bunny really do exist ! In fact everything that can be imagined has existed or exists, including every conceivable event will happen or could happen including WW2 being won by Santa clause! The moral of this story is science is a fair to good tool and that's all it is ! Science can not define or describe even everything in the material universe, much less the metaphysical universe/realm.
MrMr

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Many arguments of the soul can stretch on forever but the most puzzling one is not what happens to the supposed existing soul after death but before life itself.

Interesting question. Reincarnation would seem to make more sense here, unless there is some sort of cosmic warehouse of souls waiting to be dispatched by overnight courier.