Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[Jose Fly]

Lets have it man, stop trying to set up and mold your proof into what it is not. No matter how you word it, no human has evolved.

Peace.

Why the reluctance to say "Yes, I agree to that"?

I've been through this a thousand times. Internet creationists do this all the time. They'll say "X never happens", but once someone posts an example of X, they say "Nope, that's not Y", hoping no one will remember their original claim was about X, not Y.

So answer the question: If I show you a documented example of a beneficial trait arising in humans complete with a description of the mutations that produced the trait, would you agree that humans do indeed evolve?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am telling you that my DNA and RNA is exactly like my parents.

Answering your other question, in case you missed the answer before, NO mutation other than deformation has ever existed in humanity. There are absolutely ZERO examples of what you are suggesting, NONE!

I tell you what, when we see one, I will accept it.

Peace.

Introduction to Human Genetics: Mutation
PLoS Biology: Mutation Patterns in the Human Genome: More Variable Than Expected
Instability of the human genome: mutation and DNA repair -- Human Molecular Genetics 2 -- NCBI Bookshelf
Mutations in the human Jagged1 gene are responsible for Alagille syndrome - Nature Genetics
Rapid, nonradioactive detection of mutations in th... [J Lab Clin Med. 1989] - PubMed result
http://www.biosino.org/bioinformati... the dynamic mutation of the human genome.pdf
The Human Genome: Mutations -- Egan et al. 159 (1): 12 -- Am J Psychiatry

There you go. Several links that all cite direct observations of mutations in the human genome.

 

[mickiel]

Why the reluctance to say "Yes, I agree to that"?

I've been through this a thousand times. Internet creationists do this all the time. They'll say "X never happens", but once someone posts an example of X, they say "Nope, that's not Y", hoping no one will remember their original claim was about X, not Y.

So answer the question: If I show you a documented example of a beneficial trait arising in humans complete with a description of the mutations that produced the trait, would you agree that humans do indeed evolve?

Show me an example of a human that has evolved beyond us two. Lets forget the munmble jumble your trying to set up to support your twist, just plainly show me an example of human evolution. I am not talking about " Traits", I am talking about a complette change in RNA and DNA.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Introduction to Human Genetics: Mutation
PLoS Biology: Mutation Patterns in the Human Genome: More Variable Than Expected
Instability of the human genome: mutation and DNA repair -- Human Molecular Genetics 2 -- NCBI Bookshelf
Mutations in the human Jagged1 gene are responsible for Alagille syndrome - Nature Genetics
Rapid, nonradioactive detection of mutations in th... [J Lab Clin Med. 1989] - PubMed result
http://www.biosino.org/bioinformati... the dynamic mutation of the human genome.pdf
The Human Genome: Mutations -- Egan et al. 159 (1): 12 -- Am J Psychiatry

There you go. Several links that all cite direct observations of mutations in the human genome.

These links are speaking of deformation, which I have said I willnot accept as evolution. Deformation is not evolution, its sickness in the human cell.

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

These links are speaking of deformation, which I have said I willnot accept as evolution. Deformation is not evolution, its sickness in the human cell.

Peace.

No they are not - they all address trends in mutation that occur in every single human and many of them give direct examples of these mutations being observed. I specifically avoided any source which specifically dealt with "deformations" since I knew you'd just try and ignore them. As it stands, I was wrong to make the effort since you clearly have not made any effort whatsoever to read what is in any of the links.

 

[mickiel]

No they are not - they all address trends in mutation that occur in every single human and many of them give direct examples of these mutations being observed. I specifically avoided any source which specifically dealt with "deformations" since I knew you'd just try and ignore them. As it stands, I was wrong to make the effort since you clearly have not made any effort whatsoever to read what is in any of the links.

Oh I read them, they are talking about deformations, infections, abnormalitys, and the like. These things are the ONLY thing that can change a human cell, and it will produce a deformed human, or DNA that is deformed, that is not evolution.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Why the reluctance to say "Yes, I agree to that"?

I've been through this a thousand times. Internet creationists do this all the time. They'll say "X never happens", but once someone posts an example of X, they say "Nope, that's not Y", hoping no one will remember their original claim was about X, not Y.

So answer the question: If I show you a documented example of a beneficial trait arising in humans complete with a description of the mutations that produced the trait, would you agree that humans do indeed evolve?

Come on man, lets have this proof, quit stalling.

Lets have it!

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh I read them, they are talking about deformations, infections, abnormalitys, and the like.

No, they are not. Not a single one of them deals with deformation - they all cite and use specific examples of observed mutations in the human genome - some with benefits, some which cause disadvantages - and explain why and in what amounts those mutations occur.

You cannot deny this, it is a basic fact of genetics. Every living thing carries in it's genetic code over 100 unique mutations distinct from it's parents.

These things are the ONLY thing that can change a human cell, and it will produce a deformed human, or DNA that is deformed, that is not evolution.

Peace.

You said that if I could produce a single example of human mutation that did not result in deformation, and that such mutations pervaded throughout human populations, you would change your mind.

I've presented them, and you haven't changed your mind. What's more, you're moving the goalposts and saying "that is not evolution". You didn't ask for an example of "evolution", you asked for an example of mutation in the human genome, and said that that would be sufficient to change your mind with regards to evolution.

I have provided them. Can you give me one good reason why you continue to deny this?

 

[Jose Fly]

Show me an example of a human that has evolved beyond us two.

What does "beyond us two" mean?

Lets forget the munmble jumble your trying to set up to support your twist, just plainly show me an example of human evolution. I am not talking about " Traits", I am talking about a complette change in RNA and DNA.

Ah, see this is what I was talking about. "Evolution" is not " a complete change in DNA and RNA"; it's not anything like that at all.

As I suspected, you really don't know much about evolutionary biology. By itself, that's no big deal. We're all ignorant in a lot more subjects than not. The key is to be insightful and humble enough to realize it, and take the necessary steps to learn about a subject before attempting to debate it (let alone "debunk" it).

Nevertheless, here's one of many examples of new traits arising in humans via genetic mutations....

PAI-1 plasma levels in a general population without clinical evidence of atherosclerosis: relation to environmental and genetic determinants.


Plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1) plasma levels have been consistently related to a polymorphism (4G/5G) of the PAI-1 gene. The renin-angiotensin pathway plays a role in the regulation of PAI-1 plasma levels. An insertion (I)/deletion (D) polymorphism of the angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) gene has been related to plasma and cellular ACE levels. In 1032 employees (446 men and 586 women; 22 to 66 years old) of a hospital in southern Italy, we investigated the association between PAI-1 4G/5G and the ACE I/D gene variants and plasma PAI-1 antigen levels. None of the individuals enrolled had clinical evidence of atherosclerosis. In univariate analysis, PAI-1 levels were significantly higher in men (P<.001), alcohol drinkers (P<.001), smokers (P=.009), and homozygotes for the PAI-1 gene deletion allele (4G/4G) (P=.012). Multivariate analysis documented the independent effect on PAI-1 plasma levels of body mass index (P<.001), triglycerides (P<.001), sex (P<.001), PAI-1 4G/5G polymorphism (P=.019), smoking habit (P=.041), and ACE I/D genotype (P=.042). Thus, in addition to the markers of insulin resistance and smoking habit, gene variants of PAI-1 and ACE account for a significant portion of the between-individual variability of circulating PAI-1 antigen concentrations in a general population without clinical evidence of atherosclerosis.

In layman's terms, the mutations in the identified genes caused a sort of "immunity" to atherosclerosis in a population.

 

[mickiel]

What does "beyond us two" mean?


Ah, see this is what I was talking about. "Evolution" is not " a complete change in DNA and RNA"; it's not anything like that at all.

As I suspected, you really don't know much about evolutionary biology. By itself, that's no big deal. We're all ignorant in a lot more subjects than not. The key is to be insightful and humble enough to realize it, and take the necessary steps to learn about a subject before attempting to debate it (let alone "debunk" it).

Nevertheless, here's one of many examples of new traits arising in humans via genetic mutations....

PAI-1 plasma levels in a general population without clinical evidence of atherosclerosis: relation to environmental and genetic determinants.


Plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1) plasma levels have been consistently related to a polymorphism (4G/5G) of the PAI-1 gene. The renin-angiotensin pathway plays a role in the regulation of PAI-1 plasma levels. An insertion (I)/deletion (D) polymorphism of the angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) gene has been related to plasma and cellular ACE levels. In 1032 employees (446 men and 586 women; 22 to 66 years old) of a hospital in southern Italy, we investigated the association between PAI-1 4G/5G and the ACE I/D gene variants and plasma PAI-1 antigen levels. None of the individuals enrolled had clinical evidence of atherosclerosis. In univariate analysis, PAI-1 levels were significantly higher in men (P<.001), alcohol drinkers (P<.001), smokers (P=.009), and homozygotes for the PAI-1 gene deletion allele (4G/4G) (P=.012). Multivariate analysis documented the independent effect on PAI-1 plasma levels of body mass index (P<.001), triglycerides (P<.001), sex (P<.001), PAI-1 4G/5G polymorphism (P=.019), smoking habit (P=.041), and ACE I/D genotype (P=.042). Thus, in addition to the markers of insulin resistance and smoking habit, gene variants of PAI-1 and ACE account for a significant portion of the between-individual variability of circulating PAI-1 antigen concentrations in a general population without clinical evidence of atherosclerosis.

In layman's terms, the mutations in the identified genes caused a sort of "immunity" to atherosclerosis in a population.

In laymans terms, no one in the population evolved! Becomming immune to something is not evolution. I am immune to the false claims of evolution, but that does not mean I have evolved as a human,

Now does it?

Peace.

 

[Jose Fly]

In laymans terms, no one in the population evolved!

Yes they did. That population developed a new trait that isn't present in other populations, and that trait arose via specific genetic mutations. That my ignorant friend, is evolution.

Becomming immune to something is not evolution. I am immune to the false claims of evolution, but that does not mean I have evolved as a human,

I strongly suspect you are immune to reality as a whole.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In laymans terms, no one in the population evolved! Becomming immune to something is not evolution. I am immune to the false claims of evolution, but that does not mean I have evolved as a human,

Now does it?

Peace.

He produced an example of a population of humans gaining a specific genetic immunity to something.

Please, read something and understand it before dismissing it.

Also, here are three more (extremely straightforward) sources on genetic variation in humans:

"Every person has three billion 'letters' of DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) that make up the human genome. A mutation occurs when one of these letters changes. The international team co-ordinated by Dr Chris Tyler-Smith, have found that the mutation rate is one mutation in every 15 to 30 million letters per generation, which means each person has 100-200 new mutations in their DNA."
Source: http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_48273.asp

"No process is 100% accurate. Even the most highly skilled typist will introduce errors when copying a manuscript. So it is with DNA replication. Like a conscientious typist, the cell does proofread the accuracy of its copy. But, even so, errors slip through.
It has been estimated that in humans and other mammals, uncorrected errors (= mutations) occur at the rate of about 1 in every 50 million (5 x 107) nucleotides added to the chain. (Not bad &#8212; I wish that I could type so accurately.) But with 6 x 109 base pairs in a human cell, that mean that each new cell contains some 120 new mutations."
Source: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Mutations.html

"The more closely related two people are, the more similar their genomes. Scientists estimate that the genomes of non-related people&#8212;any two people plucked at random off the street&#8212;differ at about 1 in every 1,200 to 1,500 DNA bases, or "letters." Whether that's a little or a lot of variation depends on your perspective. There are more than three million differences between your genome and anyone else's. On the other hand, we are all 99.9 percent the same, DNA-wise. (By contrast, we are only about 99 percent the same as our closest relatives, chimpanzees.)
...
When a mutation occurs in a sex cell&#8212;a sperm or an egg&#8212;it can be passed along to the next generation of people. Your genome contains about 100 "new" mutations&#8212;changes that occurred as your parents' bodies made the egg and sperm cells that became you. These genome variations are uniquely yours. Other variations in your genome arose many generations ago and have been passed down from parent to child over the years, until they ended up in you. You probably share each one of these older variations with many other people all over the world, but still, no one else has the exact same combination of variations that you have."
Source: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/resources/whats_a_genome/Chp4_1.shtml

Have you changed your mind yet?

 

[Jose Fly]

He produced an example of a population of humans gaining a specific genetic immunity to something.

Please, read something and understand it before dismissing it.

Meh. It's another internet creationist to whom "No it's not" is considered a valid rebuttal.

It's a standard tactic out of "Jose Fly's Creationist Primer".

 

[mickiel]

He produced an example of a population of humans gaining a specific genetic immunity to something.

Have you changed your mind yet?

Immunity is not evolution. You are suggesting that if I am immune to a virus, that I have evolved. If I am immune to sickle cell, then I have evolved. If I am immune to anything, then I am an example of human evolution. Nonsense! Utter nonsense and scraping the pan for proof.

Show me an example of human evolution, and I will change my views.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

.


I strongly suspect you are immune to reality as a whole.

Then why further waste your time on a person like me? Why are you speaking with a person who you consider immune to reality as a whole? What does that suggest you are?

Take your conversation to those who fit your reality, and exit mine.

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Immunity is not evolution. You are suggesting that if I am immune to a virus, that I have evolved. If I am immune to sickle cell, then I have evolved. If I am immune to anything, then I am an example of human evolution. Nonsense! Utter nonsense and scraping the pan for proof.

It is an immunity that resulted as part of a genetic mutation which was passed throughout a community through replication and resulted in that community sharing that immunity which is unique to them.

In other words, it is an example of a population of humans changing, through mutation, to develop a beneficial trait. This is precisely what evolution is and does.

If this is not an example of evolution, would you care to mention any other process by which this example of a population of humans developing a similar genetic trait would occur?

Show me an example of human evolution, and I will change my views.

You're moving the goalposts. This is what you said just two pages back:

"Answering your other question, in case you missed the answer before, NO mutation other than deformation has ever existed in humanity. There are absolutely ZERO examples of what you are suggesting, NONE!

I tell you what, when we see one, I will accept it."

You said that being presented with an example of beneficial (or neutral) mutations in the genome would be accepted by you as evidence for evolution. We presented it to you, but now you're refusing to accept it because, in your view, it does not amount to "evolution".

The reason for this is simple: you do not understand evolution, refuse to understand it, and are biased.

If I am wrong, explain to me the difference between a beneficial genetic trait being passed through a population and that process of evolution.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Because at its root, it really does not agree with Creation. The creationist who agree with evolution, I think are off base. Bascially Evolutions theory is about Development, any process of formation or Growth. I disagree with those who see Evolution as a continous process from unorganized simplicity to organized Complexity, and exclude God as the original organizer.

Now if a creationist views it like this: Evolution is the elevation of roots that God set in motion from his Powers, then I would agree partly, because it renders God as the Orgin. But most don't do that. They think that Life came forth gradually into being from a rudimentary state to a more Complex state.

I don't see evolution in Humans, they were created as is, holding no need to evolve physically, only mentally. As far as animals and plant life, I think God did give " Some" of them some form of Evolution.

Peace.

So what you are saying is that you will only accept the facts of evolution if we all state that it was god who made it happen?

 

[mickiel]

No, what is happening is that really its you who are trying to widen the goalpost, you have no credible evidence for evolution, so your grasping at anything you can find. Immunization is not evolution, it can be obtained by using medicines, now your suggesting that medicines can cause evolution? That sickness can cause Evolution, that being cured of a desiease is evolution.

Its really sad to see the sheer hunger of evolutionist, as they take serious swings at knats.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

So what you are saying is that you will only accept the facts of evolution if we all state that it was god who made it happen?

What I am saying is that God is the Fact, Evolution has been diluted with far too much fiction. Things grow and develop, I already accept that, but this process was started by a developer, not the process itself.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

There is not even one generally accepted scientific theory on the orgin of life, not one. So people are scrapping to latch hold of anything that rubs their fascination with explination. The scientific method that is held in high esteem by most Atheist is composed as follows;

A. Careful observation of a Phenomenon.
B. Formulation of a Hypothesis concerning the Phenomenon.
C. Experimentation to demonstrate whether the hypothesis is true or false.
D. A conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.

Based on these established ways of learning:

Nobody has ever observed the creation of matter or energy.
Nobody has ever observed a molecular cloud collapse or any planet form.
Nobody has ever observed Abiogenesis.
Nobody has ever observed the evolution of any Genome.
Nobody has ever observed any Phylum, class, order or family change.

Nobody! Evolutionist are excellent at hypothesizing, but their real problems are steps A,C and D. They will travel far to validate their theories, because they are unable to accept God as creator.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.