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Consciousness

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
The Big Bang, out of which Evolution emerged, is an ongoing event against the canvas of consciousness, or better, in consciousness itself, as 'canvas' implies flatness.

"Metaphor is using a figure of speech to imply a similarity or a difference between two different things",
as in the similarity that snowflakes and humans exhibit, both in their uniqueness, and of their source as being universal. Therefore, universal water is to unique snowflake as universal consciousness is to individual self. All snowflakes are made of universal water as all selves are made of universal consciousness.

See how easy Logic 101 can be?
(On second thought, maybe you'd best stick with common sense.)

The consciousness that I am now is the same consciousness that was present in 1810. It is not MY consciousness; it is UNIVERSAL consciousness. You are confusing individual consciousness (ie 'mind') with universal consciousness that is empty of self. Individual consciousness is in Time and Space; it is Existence; universal consciousness is not in Time or Space; it is Being, not Existence. It is omniscient, in all times and all spaces at once.

A snowflake, whether in the desert or in the Arctic, always exhibits form, until it once again becomes formless water.
Formless consciousness is always present, whether it manifests itself as form or not. It is non-dual and non-local.

You cannot address consciousness in the manner of science. The moment you do, you're talking about something else; about the characteristics, the traces of consciousness. We can only talk about it in negative terms. There are only two choices. But if individual consciousness is an illusion, then the only other choice is universal consciousness, consciousness itself being self-evident.

If I silently point to the moon, and you attack the pointing finger, you have missed seeing.

Again, your logic is erroneous. All you are referencing with closed eyes is the memory of a construct called 'Time and Space', and where your mind stashes the self away in that time and space construct. To break free of this fabrication is to experience reality as it actually is, before Time, Space, or Causation seemingly locked you up in bondage.

I really thought I was finished here. "Dumb as a plank of wood", "I have tons of things to do today", "Oh, you stupid car..", are all examples of a figure of speech. What makes them easy to recognize, is that they are all literally false. A metaphor uses these figure of speeches to highlight ideas, make comparisons, or make contrasts. So, what is the figure of speech you used to compare universal water to the uniqueness of a snowflake, or consciousness to the uniqueness of humans? None! You simply used an analogy to compare water to snowflakes(from sameness to uniqueness), and consciousness to humans(from sameness to uniqueness). Other than simply commiting the Modo hoc and Composition fallacy, consciousness is only a subjective dimensionless illusion, created by a real physical brain. Consciousness does not exist in a physical reality like snowflakes, water, humans, or time and space(both can be measured). So one of these things is not like the others. You also ignore all the other factors that contributes to the uniqueness of snowflakes and humans, thus committing a fallacy of division. Let's move on

Science know quite a lot about what you label as consciousness, and are learning more every day. You may wish to believe that consciousness is beyond the understanding of science, but the advancement of science does not depend on anything you may or may not believe. Consciousness may only be a projected mental construct of our reality, but it is also interactive. Close your eyes and see how quickly this level of interaction will change. Where are these memory constructs of self, space and time, if you are born blind and deaf? If we were part of a universal consciousness, we would be able to speak all languages, become true empaths, and clearly see 7.6 Billion times more of our objective reality. Clearly, we can't. Also, does this universal consciousness extend to the dead, all animals, the unborn, or exists in all past and future events. If it does, then we are simply talking about God in disguise.

Look, I believe that you serious believe in everything you say. But the truest test of any idea or belief, depend on its level of objectivity and its degree of certainty. Since you simply create your own language and logic to support your assertions, your rationale is not objective. Since you offer no objective evidence, other than fallacy-riddled equivocation errors, and clever philosophical gymnastics, your degree of certainty is problematic at best. Finally, from a subjective perspective, the moon does not exist, if you are not a conscious observer. Remember, the mind may convince you that anything is possible, but only science can prove it. Don
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
From what I've seen so far, it is the double slit experiment that is either held up as the example where consciousness affects the experiment, or does not. The following is a modification of that experiment. Is it, in your professional opinion, just a case of more poppycock and woo woo?

Yes. These experiments are completely arrant nonsense. The results of these kinds of experiments occur due to experimenter bias coupled with wishful thinking and insufficient care in making the setup truly blind to chance or deliberate perturbations. Seen these kinds of results in many other fringe journals in parapsychology as well. In all these cases, the positive results vanish as soon as actual experimental physicists try to replicate them in quantum experiment labs like in Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, CERN etc. Given Dean Radin's reputation as a known pseudoscientist, there is no reason to take these results as anything more than deliberate hoax or unfortunate self deception.

Let me tell you plainly. Thinking about the double slit electron path in one's mind DO NOT change the results by one iota. Anyone who says there are experiments showing otherwise is just plain wrong.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
That the results of quantum experiments depend on the consciousness of the experimenter is one such nonsense flying around. The properties of quantum events depend on the type of interaction between the quantum system and the surrounding this system is interacting with. This surrounding may be a natural one (as in radioactive decay) or may be an experimental set up (as in a double slit experiment). In either case, the quantum wavefunction is a mathematical structure that provides the type of property and the probability of the quantitative values of this property that emerges from this system-surrounding interaction. They occur regardless of any consciousness is present or not. What has been loosely termed as "quantum properties depend on the type of observation" is actually a short hand for "properties of a quantum system emerge and are jointly determined both by the quantum system itself and the manner in which it interacts with it's surroundings which, in experiments, include the experimental set up used to measure the properties." Whether a conscious entity is there to observe the results of these experiments or not is completely irrelevant and affects nothing at all.

Can we just assume that all experimenters are conscious? Let's also assume that at the quantum level of reality, particles are governed only by the rules of Quantum Mechanics. What we do know is whenever an experimenter interacts with quantum events, the outcome of the event will change. Measuring the event, observing the event, inducing the event, or modifying the event, will change the outcome of the event. We don't know (for certain) how or why this occurs, but we will. There are some experiments today that involve the microtubules in cells, that may be able to prevent this quantum decoherence for longer periods of time. Maybe with the advent of quantum computers, we might learn a bit more. Don
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Can we just assume that all experimenters are conscious? Let's also assume that at the quantum level of reality, particles are governed only by the rules of Quantum Mechanics. What we do know is whenever an experimenter interacts with quantum events, the outcome of the event will change. Measuring the event, observing the event, inducing the event, or modifying the event, will change the outcome of the event. We don't know (for certain) how or why this occurs, but we will. There are some experiments today that involve the microtubules in cells, that may be able to prevent this quantum decoherence for longer periods of time. Maybe with the advent of quantum computers, we might learn a bit more. Don
No. Any interaction of a quantum system with a thermal surrounding will fix the property value entirely. Conscious observers are Not needed.
A thermal surrounding is defined as one for which thermodynamic states can be defined (roughly they can be said to have a temperature). A measuring apparatus has temperature, so it qualifies. But so does most macro-systems including the vacuum of space which is at the CMB temperature.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
No. Any interaction of a quantum system with a thermal surrounding will fix the property value entirely. Conscious observers are Not needed.
A thermal surrounding is defined as one for which thermodynamic states can be defined (roughly they can be said to have a temperature). A measuring apparatus has temperature, so it qualifies. But so does most macro-systems including the vacuum of space which is at the CMB temperature.


I'm not certain that I follow you. I am talking about anything(observer, measuring apparatus, paid meditators, examining tools, etc.) that attempts to measure, observe, verify, or interact with any aspect of the quantum state (Ψ) of particles. This is called the "operator". I am really trying to avoid becoming too technical. The Quantum State, and QM is based on probability gradients. That is, from the most probable to the least probable events occurring. This is due in part to the uncertainty principle. Which simply states that we can't know the position and momentum of any particle with any precision at the same time. The more certain we are of a particle's position, the less certain we are of its momentum, and vice-versa. This is because particles exhibit a wave-particle duality. Since we are talking about probability gradients, all probable states can exists. Even multiple states can exist at the same time. Even past, present and future states, can exist at the same time. All is possible at this level of reality, even the reversal of entropy is possible.

What we observe, regardless of the thermal surroundings(environment), is simply one possible outcome. Not all possible outcomes, as we can observe at the macro level. Other than reaching absolute zero, nothing will cause the quantum particles state of flux, to become thermodynamically zero. I'm not sure what you mean by, "thermal surrounding will fix the property value entirely", so I will reserve my comments. Also there is no true vacuum in space. Every square centimeter is filled with quantum radiation, virtual particles, gravity, pressure and energy.

If you can't source out reference materials on this subject, I can certainly get you started. Just to repeat, any interaction with the quantum state of particles by an operator, will alter its predicted outcome. This outcome will differ from a quantum state of particles where no interaction has occurred. Don
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not certain that I follow you. I am talking about anything(observer, measuring apparatus, paid meditators, examining tools, etc.) that attempts to measure, observe, verify, or interact with any aspect of the quantum state (Ψ) of particles. This is called the "operator". I am really trying to avoid becoming too technical. The Quantum State, and QM is based on probability gradients. That is, from the most probable to the least probable events occurring. This is due in part to the uncertainty principle. Which simply states that we can't know the position and momentum of any particle with any precision at the same time. The more certain we are of a particle's position, the less certain we are of its momentum, and vice-versa. This is because particles exhibit a wave-particle duality. Since we are talking about probability gradients, all probable states can exists. Even multiple states can exist at the same time. Even past, present and future states, can exist at the same time. All is possible at this level of reality, even the reversal of entropy is possible.

What we observe, regardless of the thermal surroundings(environment), is simply one possible outcome. Not all possible outcomes, as we can observe at the macro level. Other than reaching absolute zero, nothing will cause the quantum particles state of flux, to become thermodynamically zero. I'm not sure what you mean by, "thermal surrounding will fix the property value entirely", so I will reserve my comments. Also there is no true vacuum in space. Every square centimeter is filled with quantum radiation, virtual particles, gravity, pressure and energy.

If you can't source out reference materials on this subject, I can certainly get you started. Just to repeat, any interaction with the quantum state of particles by an operator, will alter its predicted outcome. This outcome will differ from a quantum state of particles where no interaction has occurred. Don
I thought you were saying that consciousness is needed to collapse the wavefunction to one of it's eigenstates. I see that you are not saying that at all. My bad. Regarding thermal surroundings, it was my rough way of pointing to the decoherence process that eliminates the superposition states and leaves us with a mixture of classical states as probabilities. The question of why only one of these probable outcomes are actualized requires an ontology of probability at a fundamental level, which we don't have yet. My sense is that the properties themselves come into existence through the interaction event between the quantum state and the macro-environment. That is we have to move away from thinking about object X having property Y , and instead think in terms object X gaining property Y in a stochastic manner through the interaction event Z.

My two cents. :)
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
Let me tell you plainly. Thinking about the double slit electron path in one's mind DO NOT change the results by one iota. Anyone who says there are experiments showing otherwise is just plain wrong.

Maybe. Richard Conn Henry is pretty well credentialed and says stuff like: "That is a big part of why we get the oddities of the well-known quantum-mechanical double-slit experiment: there simply are no photons- there are only results." I really shouldn't quote him out of context. Here's the full paper. It's a pdf.
I like his conclusions, but I don't follow the math. Maybe you guys do.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe. Richard Conn Henry is pretty well credentialed and says stuff like: "That is a big part of why we get the oddities of the well-known quantum-mechanical double-slit experiment: there simply are no photons- there are only results." I really shouldn't quote him out of context. Here's the full paper. It's a pdf.
I like his conclusions, but I don't follow the math. Maybe you guys do.
He is right of course. All physical entities are constructs that package our observations in maximally useful and compact form for explanatory and predictive purpose. Indeed my definition of reality and truth is that set of mental constructs that provides maximal utility in arranging our experiences for prediction, manipulation etc.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Yes. These experiments are completely arrant nonsense. The results of these kinds of experiments occur due to experimenter bias coupled with wishful thinking and insufficient care in making the setup truly blind to chance or deliberate perturbations. Seen these kinds of results in many other fringe journals in parapsychology as well. In all these cases, the positive results vanish as soon as actual experimental physicists try to replicate them in quantum experiment labs like in Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, CERN etc. Given Dean Radin's reputation as a known pseudoscientist, there is no reason to take these results as anything more than deliberate hoax or unfortunate self deception.

Let me tell you plainly. Thinking about the double slit electron path in one's mind DO NOT change the results by one iota. Anyone who says there are experiments showing otherwise is just plain wrong.

I don't think you can dismiss studies like these so readily. In this particular case, as Radin stated, there is a current replication study in progress which may verify Radin's findings. Other than that, one other original set of controlled experiments to demonstrate non-locality of brain function done back in 1994 at the University of Mexico has since been replicated in other variants of the original. Quantum physicist Amit Goswami helped set up the experiment, and still supports its findings today.

http://www.deanradin.com/FOC2014/Grinberg1994.pdf
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I really thought I was finished here. "Dumb as a plank of wood", "I have tons of things to do today", "Oh, you stupid car..", are all examples of a figure of speech. What makes them easy to recognize, is that they are all literally false. A metaphor uses these figure of speeches to highlight ideas, make comparisons, or make contrasts. So, what is the figure of speech you used to compare universal water to the uniqueness of a snowflake, or consciousness to the uniqueness of humans? None! You simply used an analogy to compare water to snowflakes(from sameness to uniqueness), and consciousness to humans(from sameness to uniqueness). Other than simply commiting the Modo hoc and Composition fallacy, consciousness is only a subjective dimensionless illusion, created by a real physical brain. Consciousness does not exist in a physical reality like snowflakes, water, humans, or time and space(both can be measured). So one of these things is not like the others. You also ignore all the other factors that contributes to the uniqueness of snowflakes and humans, thus committing a fallacy of division. Let's move on

Science know quite a lot about what you label as consciousness, and are learning more every day. You may wish to believe that consciousness is beyond the understanding of science, but the advancement of science does not depend on anything you may or may not believe. Consciousness may only be a projected mental construct of our reality, but it is also interactive. Close your eyes and see how quickly this level of interaction will change. Where are these memory constructs of self, space and time, if you are born blind and deaf? If we were part of a universal consciousness, we would be able to speak all languages, become true empaths, and clearly see 7.6 Billion times more of our objective reality. Clearly, we can't. Also, does this universal consciousness extend to the dead, all animals, the unborn, or exists in all past and future events. If it does, then we are simply talking about God in disguise.

Look, I believe that you serious believe in everything you say. But the truest test of any idea or belief, depend on its level of objectivity and its degree of certainty. Since you simply create your own language and logic to support your assertions, your rationale is not objective. Since you offer no objective evidence, other than fallacy-riddled equivocation errors, and clever philosophical gymnastics, your degree of certainty is problematic at best. Finally, from a subjective perspective, the moon does not exist, if you are not a conscious observer. Remember, the mind may convince you that anything is possible, but only science can prove it. Don

You obviously have not been following what I've been saying on this thread outside of our little discussion. While you are touting the 'objective mind' as a kind of gold standard (it isn't), I've been saying that the experience of universal consciousness (in contrast to belief) is the merging of the subject/object split, which the thinking mind originally created. IOW, and put quite simply, there is a state of unconditioned awareness that had to have been in place prior to the formation of the conceptual frameworks of 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity'. That state is universal consciousness, without boundaries; without limits, unlike the conditioned mind you continue to talk about as 'real'. The conditioned mind of subject and object is just a temporal construct, created by the mind as a means of grappling with the world it experiences via perception in order to come up with answers to explain that world in rational terms. Ultimately, such nice, neat little formulas fail when a new discovery comes along to upset the applecart. This is the history of science, and we live in a world of more paradox than ever, in spite of the mountains of accumulated factual knowledge.

Objectivity? Consciousness cannot be an object of itself. The observer IS that which is the object.

God in disguise? Now you're on to something! ha ha ha...:D

We all are fully at one with universal consciousness at all times. In fact, we have never ever been separated not even for one nano second. But because of the mind, we only think ourselves separate, so each 'separate' mind cannot know other 'separate' minds because each lives in its own little private world it has fabricated. But, you see, the issue is not that we can or cannot know all of the thoughts of another individual self, it is simply that the consciousness of one self is exactly that of all other selves. To awaken from the falsehood of separation is to see that, as well as to see that all uniqueness is based upon a single formless source. It's something you SEE; not something you believe.

You keep mistaking what I've said: I was not making an analogy between consciousness and snowflakes in terms of their physicality, but in terms of form and formlessness; in terms of individual uniqueness and universality. So, quite simply, and sans all of the complications you have introduced, unique snowflake is like individual unique consciousness in that both emerge from a universal source: it's that simple, so stop stirring up a fuss; I know you know what I am saying here. We are in reality all the same consciousness, pretending to be separate and unique individual selves, but we don't see that because the mind has created the idea that this separation is real. It has lost touch with its original source, even though it is completely immersed in it, both inside and out, like the fish in the sea, which does not know it is in the sea. The attention of the fish from the get-go is captured by the external world: food and predator. And like the fish, we too are captivated from the get-go by the glitter and noise of the world, which obscures the presence of the sea of consciousness we all are immersed in. Only when the discursive mind is quieted down is there an opportunity to experience this omniscient consciousness without the self getting in the way and aggressively and continually asserting itself as the boss; as the controller of destiny, and the doer of all things. Only then does what is sometimes called 'Big Mind' come into play. And one of the reasons few in comparison experience this insight is because most of the world is driven by a combination of 3 addictive pursuits: Power, Sensation, and Security, all of which interfere with the experience of Higher Consciousness.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think you can dismiss studies like these so readily. In this particular case, as Radin stated, there is a current replication study in progress which may verify Radin's findings. Other than that, one other original set of controlled experiments to demonstrate non-locality of brain function done back in 1994 at the University of Mexico has since been replicated in other variants of the original. Quantum physicist Amit Goswami helped set up the experiment, and still supports its findings today.

http://www.deanradin.com/FOC2014/Grinberg1994.pdf

Here is a falsification of the idea that consciousness is involved in determining the results of a quantum experiment. I am quoting the relevant parts of the paper below,
[1009.2404] Quantum mechanics needs no consciousness (and the other way around)

The event of forming, in the observer’s mind, an explicit phenomenal representation of the result of a quantum measurement is necessary for the wave function (superposition state) of the system to collapse into a single eigenstate.

This also means that,
the collapse of wave function should never occur if the corresponding result of measurement has not been registered by a conscious observer.

This means that,

The interference pattern should be visible if “which-path” information has not been registered in consciousness of the observer (i.e., the experimenter).
Specifically, we expect to find an interference pattern in the following conditions:
i) No actual attempt to measure the “which-path” information was made,
ii) The “which-path” information was measured . However, no results were recorded by a macroscopic device and hence are not visible or accessible to a human observer in any way.


The experimental results that falsify predictions i) and ii) already exist. Firstly, in experiments similar to that proposed here (e.g., [11,20,33]), it was shown that if “which-path” information was in principle obtainable, then even though no actual attempt was made to extract this information (i.e., to measure it), no interference pattern was found. For example, in the experiment carried out by Zou et al. [33],
the interference pattern formed by the signal photons could only be observed when the paths of idler photons were aligned, i.e., the “which-path” information was destroyed. If the idlers were misaligned to allow the source of the signal photons to become distinguishable, the interference pattern disappeared.
Interestingly, under such conditions, it is not important whether a detector is actually in place ready to make the measurement of “which-path” or not. As long as such measurement could be made, i.e., the photon path is in principle identifiable, the interference is wiped out [33]. Thus, the first prediction of
consciousness hypothesis is false.



Secondly, in another set of experiments, “which-path” information was measured but was not recorded by a macroscopic device and, therefore,was not accessible to a conscious observer.Under such conditions, also no interference pattern was found. For example, in the experiments reported by Eichmann et al. [34] and D¨ urr et al. [35], the “which-path” information was only stored in the state of a single atom. Results demonstrated unambiguously that even if such microscopically stored information was not actually read out, the mere fact that it could be read out ensured the absence of the interference pattern. Therefore, the existing evidence indicates that the second prediction is also false.

Given this direct falsification, there is no reason to attach much weight to the results of these fringe parapsychologists.Currently all these studies giving positive results are reported by the usual suspects within a small fringe of quantum mystics and parapsychologists. They can't be reproduced by other, makes absolute no sense given our success in using quantum mechanics objectively in software technology, cryptography and quantum computing , and hence are politely ignored by the physics community.

What is worse, it comes from a semi-literate understanding if Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics and philosophy. Both Hindu and Buddhist religions, as they were classically practiced in India, Tibet etc. is absolutely committed to an objective world in the realm of phenomena ruled by inviolable laws that cannot be altered by thinking about it. Hinduism especially have three orthodox schools of thought devoted to the explication of this objectively grounded world of phenomena. Vaiseshika, the atomist school that investigates the world as composed of interacting atoms having properties, the Nyaya school that deals with the elucidation of scientific inference and epistemology based on objective user independent observation of the world, and the Mimansa school that deals with philosophy of language and abstract mathematical logic. That's three of the six orthodox schools of Hindu metaphysics devoted to rational and objective inquiry into the world that is observed. These are balanced by three mystical and introspective schools: Yoga, Samkhya and Vedanta. The six schools together deliver the complete picture of the Hindu view of the world which says that both the objective, rational and scientific understanding of the observed world and the essential monistic introspective understanding of the Self and the World as experienced by mystical insight are simultaneously true. How this synoptic picture of the world where apparently contradictory ways are true can be expressed and conceived is the heart of Hindu creative thought in religion, art, culture and literature.


Ékaṃ sád víprā bahudhā́ vadanty (Rig Veda)
Existence is One, though the sages speak of it in multiple ways.


Now that's out of the way. Let's see what is wrong with these quantum consciousness experiments. See here a discussion on the paper you originally cited,

A Physicist Investigates

This should give you a sense of how horribly shoddy these experiments really are.

If a physics or engineering undergrad try to pass off such badly run experiments as data, he would flunk the class, pure and simple.

Hope this was helpful.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
You obviously have not been following what I've been saying on this thread outside of our little discussion. While you are touting the 'objective mind' as a kind of gold standard (it isn't), I've been saying that the experience of universal consciousness (in contrast to belief) is the merging of the subject/object split, which the thinking mind originally created. IOW, and put quite simply, there is a state of unconditioned awareness that had to have been in place prior to the formation of the conceptual frameworks of 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity'. That state is universal consciousness, without boundaries; without limits, unlike the conditioned mind you continue to talk about as 'real'. The conditioned mind of subject and object is just a temporal construct, created by the mind as a means of grappling with the world it experiences via perception in order to come up with answers to explain that world in rational terms. Ultimately, such nice, neat little formulas fail when a new discovery comes along to upset the applecart. This is the history of science, and we live in a world of more paradox than ever, in spite of the mountains of accumulated factual knowledge.

Objectivity? Consciousness cannot be an object of itself. The observer IS that which is the object.

God in disguise? Now you're on to something! ha ha ha...:D

We all are fully at one with universal consciousness at all times. In fact, we have never ever been separated not even for one nano second. But because of the mind, we only think ourselves separate, so each 'separate' mind cannot know other 'separate' minds because each lives in its own little private world it has fabricated. But, you see, the issue is not that we can or cannot know all of the thoughts of another individual self, it is simply that the consciousness of one self is exactly that of all other selves. To awaken from the falsehood of separation is to see that, as well as to see that all uniqueness is based upon a single formless source. It's something you SEE; not something you believe.

You keep mistaking what I've said: I was not making an analogy between consciousness and snowflakes in terms of their physicality, but in terms of form and formlessness; in terms of individual uniqueness and universality. So, quite simply, and sans all of the complications you have introduced, unique snowflake is like individual unique consciousness in that both emerge from a universal source: it's that simple, so stop stirring up a fuss; I know you know what I am saying here. We are in reality all the same consciousness, pretending to be separate and unique individual selves, but we don't see that because the mind has created the idea that this separation is real. It has lost touch with its original source, even though it is completely immersed in it, both inside and out, like the fish in the sea, which does not know it is in the sea. The attention of the fish from the get-go is captured by the external world: food and predator. And like the fish, we too are captivated from the get-go by the glitter and noise of the world, which obscures the presence of the sea of consciousness we all are immersed in. Only when the discursive mind is quieted down is there an opportunity to experience this omniscient consciousness without the self getting in the way and aggressively and continually asserting itself as the boss; as the controller of destiny, and the doer of all things. Only then does what is sometimes called 'Big Mind' come into play. And one of the reasons few in comparison experience this insight is because most of the world is driven by a combination of 3 addictive pursuits: Power, Sensation, and Security, all of which interfere with the experience of Higher Consciousness.


It is you that is NOT following my train of thought, if you can blatantly state that I am touting the "objective mind" as some kind of literary gold standard. Especially, since I don't believe that an objective mind, objective consciousness, or an objective perspective can even exist. You are the one that keep asserting that they exist, not me. What is the difference between a God, and a universal mind, universal consciousness, or a universal perspective? NONE! Exactly how can a subjective mind be aware of anything that, by definition is objective? IT CAN'T! The only thing that you have been doing, is creating a philosophical conceptual framework that is reinforced by unsupported assertions, circular reasoning, and ignorance. Your form of pseudo-sophistry belongs in Hilbert Space. And, your logic would make even a Trekkie cringe in disbelief.

Only at the quantum level are all things one with the universe. But it is a fallacy to claim this is true at the macro-level. At this level, we are not ONE with anything, we are simply "self", and separate from everything else. There are just too many self-serving assertions, and sciency-sounding word salad for me to unpack one by one. So let me just sum up mind, consciousness, subjective reality and perspective, without adding the baggage of your self-serving unsupported philosophical extensions. The brain is a physical organ that has evolved over millions of years, from trial and error. It's initial function was to provide the necessary skills for our survival and need for procreation. There was no need for consciousness, morality, or self-awareness. As our species became more interdependent on each other to provide for its basic drives, language and other cognitive skills needed to evolve. Pattern recognition and memory skills also became more evolved. Our higher centers of thought enabled us to develop a better interpretation of our objective reality(environment). These centers also allowed us to become self-aware, and sentient. These centers allow us the ability to learn, store memories, and to pass this new knowledge onto our offsprings. The brain exists within three states of awareness (consciousness, unconsciousness, and subconsciousness). Self-awareness and internal dialog have very little importance in survival. But they do provide the psychological framework for morality and introspection.

Now how do I know these things are real, and not that I just want them to be real? I know that without a physical brain, objective reality will still exist. But with a brain, I can perceive a tiny portion of that reality(subjective). What does this logically imply? I know that without functioning sensory receptors and organs, my subjective reality will simply disappear. Therefore my senses are vital in providing my brain with information linking it to my environment(objective reality). We all know that we can artificially change our perception of reality(drugs, disease, experimentation, accidents, age, environment, death, etc.). We also know that we are not physically or empathically connected to any other brain or person. If one "self" is pricked by the needle, the other "self" does not feel the physical pain(even in identical twins). If one "self" is hiding secrets in the mind, the other "self" will not know. Since our brain developed independent and separate from other brains, how can "self" be connected in any way to anything? In what way are we connected to a universal self? And, what is it connected to, ad infinitum? The brain is nothing more than another organ in the body, like the kidneys, liver, lungs and the heart. Memory, mind, and consciousness, are the results of a normal functioning brain, that provides "self" with its best-guess representation of objective reality.

What you don't seem to understand, is that you, the brain, self, consciousness, and the mind, are all one in the same. There is nothing that we can perceive outside of our subjective perspective, anymore than we can perceive outside of our expanding Universe.

Regarding your snowflake analogy, simply tell me what was the "figure of speech" you used in your comparison? If you can't, it is an analogy, not a metaphor. So simply state it, and I will gladly acknowledge my error. Otherwise, your backpedaling is just embarrassing to read. Surely you are not this egocentric. Don
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I

Only at the quantum level are all things one with the universe. But it is a fallacy to claim this is true at the macro-level. At this level, we are not ONE with anything, we are simply "self", and separate from everything else. ...

This is only true at mental-sensual level.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is this consciousness?



I did not follow a thing.
Are you following the conversation. We are discussing whether or not a conscious observer is needed to cause the collapse of the quantum wavefunction that gives a set of probable outcomes, into one actual observed or measured outcome. This proposition has been falsified by the paper I quoted. It has been shown in experiments that the wave function collapsed even in the absence of any conscious observer being aware of it.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Are you following the conversation. We are discussing whether or not a conscious observer is needed to cause the collapse of the quantum wavefunction that gives a set of probable outcomes, into one actual observed or measured outcome. This proposition has been falsified by the paper I quoted. It has been shown in experiments that the wave function collapsed even in the absence of any conscious observer being aware of it.

The fact is that a decision to record, changes the behaviour of the photon in flight. And a delayed choice does that too.
 

sayak83

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Staff member
Premium Member
The fact is that a decision to record, changes the behaviour of the photon in flight. And a delayed choice does that too.
Please read the paper. PDF download is available in the link. The experimental apparatus and the results showing that quantum collapse is independent of experimenters conscious awareness, decisions and intentions has been clearly shown. Only the configuration of the apparatus matters, even when the experimenter is completely clueless about what that configuration is, and can never be aware of it even in principle.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I thought you were saying that consciousness is needed to collapse the wavefunction to one of it's eigenstates. I see that you are not saying that at all. My bad. Regarding thermal surroundings, it was my rough way of pointing to the decoherence process that eliminates the superposition states and leaves us with a mixture of classical states as probabilities. The question of why only one of these probable outcomes are actualized requires an ontology of probability at a fundamental level, which we don't have yet. My sense is that the properties themselves come into existence through the interaction event between the quantum state and the macro-environment. That is we have to move away from thinking about object X having property Y , and instead think in terms object X gaining property Y in a stochastic manner through the interaction event Z.

My two cents. :)

I appreciate your honesty. But I'm not clear what your concerns are. Classical states are defined, not probable. Because particles can be superimposed and occupy different positions(operator type) at the same time, they can't be classically measured. The problem is that the postulate of collapsing the wave form seems to be right about what happens when we make measurements, but the dynamics seems to be wrong. Yet, the dynamics seems to be right about what happens whenever we aren't making measurements, and it is the postulate that is wrong.

I am still not certain what you are confused about, or trying to say. The eigenvalue is determined by which operator you chose to use. It will always be the true value for that eigenstate. Anyway, I can recommend some reading materials to help you better understand this subject. Opposite to what many may believe, QM is not that hard to understand. Once you learn to accept that it is probabilities, events, and outcomes that you are working with. Although, a working knowledge of discrete algebra, and matrix operations can't hurt. Don
 
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