Consciousness

[ajay0]

Cool. Do they also get some kind of insignia on their driver's license to mark the occaision of their enlightenment?

Welll, I did say that the bliss and joy enlightened one's get is independent of external events or recognition. And in times of the ancient enlightened sages Janaka or Krishna there were no such insignia as well, or even western civilization for that matter.

PS: You forgot Mel Sptiz, a janitor in Queens. Jus' sayin'...

If he is a Buddha or enlightened sage, that will be one less guy who would be a potential berserk shooter. So good for him and America.

 

[atanu]

Please read the paper. PDF download is available in the link. The experimental apparatus and the results showing that quantum collapse is independent of experimenters conscious awareness, decisions and intentions has been clearly shown. Only the configuration of the apparatus matters, even when the experimenter is completely clueless about what that configuration is, and can never be aware of it even in principle.

Right now I cannot read the paper. I will do it at leisure. But what you say goes against you, since it seems that the whole system is aware of the configuration.

That is even more damning. He he.
.....

Furthermore, regarding Hinduism or Buddhism on objectivity of objects it is sufficient to remember ‘anitya’ or ‘neti neti’.

 

[sayak83]

Right now I cannot read the paper. I will do it at leisure. But what you say goes against you, since it seems that the whole system is aware of the configuration.

That is even more damning. He he.
.....

Furthermore, regarding Hinduism or Buddhism on objectivity of objects it is sufficient to remember ‘anitya’ or ‘neti neti’.

I believe QM directly validates the Buddhist insight of dependant origination. The properties of entities in the system are inextricably dependant on the entire system configuration and cannot be analyzed in isolation as something intrinsically present in these entities. This intrinsic absence of inherent properties in phenomena is described as the emptiness of Madhyamika Buddhism and Maya in Hinduism.

The point however, is that this dependently originating and sublating flux of phenomena cannot be controlled by the consciousness of jiva-atma, which itself is flowing in this flux via it's karma and samskaras like flotsam in a whirlpool. Yet these experiments are claiming that it can!! So these experiments are not only poor in terms of science but , if true, they contradict the very worldviews they are supposed to validate! So, I am forced to call it nonsense on stilts.

 

[atanu]

I believe QM directly validates the Buddhist insight of dependant origination. The properties of entities in the system are inextricably dependant on the entire system configuration and cannot be analyzed in isolation as something intrinsically present in these entities. This intrinsic absence of inherent properties in phenomena is described as the emptiness of Madhyamika Buddhism and Maya in Hinduism.

The point however, is that this dependently originating and sublating flux of phenomena cannot be controlled by the consciousness of jiva-atma, which itself is flowing in this flux via it's karma and samskaras like flotsam in a whirlpool. Yet these experiments are claiming that it can!! So these experiments are not only poor in terms of science but , if true, they contradict the very worldviews they are supposed to validate! So, I am forced to call it nonsense on stilts.

Now now. As if human consciousness is not an integral part of the system?

A jiva only can know ‘Neti Neti’ or the ‘Dependent origination’.

So, I never undermine the role of human consciousness. If you ponder, you will find that the experiment you were talking about is eventually controlled by human consciousness.

 

[sayak83]

Now now. As if human consciousness is not an integral part of the system?

A jiva only can know ‘Neti Neti’ or the ‘Dependent origination’.

So, I never undermine the role of human consciousness. If you ponder, you will find that the experiment you were talking about is eventually controlled by human consciousness.

No. Not controlled. Only knowable through it.
The system is integrated only as far as decoherence does not occur. As soon as it occurs, we have the end of the system as an integrated whole.

 

[godnotgod]

Cool. Do they also get some kind of insignia on their driver's license to mark the occaision of their enlightenment?
.

Actually, if that is what you need to convince yourself that you really are enlightened, Japanese Zen will issue you just such a certificate which you can proudly display on your office wall. It's called 'Inka Zen':

Myosan Eisai ...was the first Japanese monk to receive the inka, a high-level seal of certification which officially recognized him as a Chan teacher.

ZEN BUDDHISM | History | History of Zen

But you, being a self-declared, 'self realized person' are not in need of such excesses, I am sure, as you are recognized far and wide for your attainment. But I promise to keep it our little secret, OK? Hokeh!

 

[godnotgod]

Does it say in the Gita that the world is an illusion?

Yes, and elsewhere too....

..Vedanta Philosophy explains that the Brahman manifests Universe, just as rope appears snake (Vivarta vada). That is, there is only an apparent transformation of God into Universe. In case of snake, rope was the Upadana Karana/Material cause and in case of universe, Brahman is the Upadana Karana. This phenomenon of Apparent Manifestation is termed as “Maya” and the Power of Brahman to achieve it is termed as “Maya Shakti”...

In Brahman who is Unique, Eternal, without parts, Absolute, It is Maya which creates the distinctions of Man, World and God. There is nothing impossible for Maya.

Hence, it is Brahman who creates/manifests this universe using his power of Maya. Hence, Lord Krishna was described as Mayapati- Lord of Maya. In Bhagvad Gita, Lord Krishna says-


“ajo ’pi sann avyayatma
bhutanam isvaro ’pi san |
prakritim svam adhisthaya
sambhavamy atma-mayaya ||”(6)


Though I am birthless, undecaying by nature, and the Lord of beings, (still) by subjugating My Prakriti, I take birth by means of My own Maya.


Lord Krishna, an Avatara of God himself is proclaiming that he creates the whole universe by his power of Maya. But now a question arises, why did Brahman need to manifest this Apparent Universe? To achieve what goal?

The Shastras say that for God, the whole manifestation is just Lila/ a Divine play. It is a spontaneous manifestation for Brahman. This manifestation is not an activity/kartattva as in Paramarthika state, there is no duality of Karta and Karya. Brahman himself is Karta-doer, Karana-cause and the Karya-activity. Hence, the whole manifestation of Universe has been described as Lila- a spontaneous play. Further, because it is a Lila and not a Karya, there is no end goal or results to achieve because Brahman intends to achieve nothing as he is everything. It is Brahman’s very Svabhava/nature to continuously manifest and dissolve and re-manifest the cosmos. Hence, God is also called as “Lalita” meaning “She who plays” by Shaktas stressing the fact that playing Lila is God’s very own Svabhava.

Many people have this misconception that Maya and Lila are different and at times contradictory. But it is not so. They both refer to same phenomenon but only stressing on two different aspect of it. Whereas the term “Maya” stresses that Brahman is the Upadana Karana of this Universe, the term “Lila” stresses that Brahman is the “Nimitta Karana” of the Universe. “Maya” answers the question “How the Universe was created” and “Lila” answers the question “Why the Universe was created”.

The Two Aspects of Creation- Maya and Lila

The article referenced also refers to some scriptures called 'Shastras' which refer to the world as maya.

 

[godnotgod]

Your collective mind and consciousness idea was very entertaining on episodes of star trek, but there is NO evidence to suggest that they are real. Except in your convoluted mind.

Then you are smarter than Carl Jung, and his mind also is convoluted, and to think he has written voluminously with such a convoluted mind. I don't think so. I just think you are still hunkered down in the Plato's Cave of the individual self, convinced that the dancing shadows on the cave walls (ie 'Logic, Reason, and Analysis') represent true reality. Not your fault. That's just the limitation of your mind-world.

But I find it interesting that many physicists, who, having reached a certain point in their scientific understanding of the world, discover a greater dimension beyond mere scientific analysis. That is also what happened to Carl Jung, who went to the East for what was lacking in his knowledge of the mind. To dismiss these developments simply because they are not provable via factual knowledge is really a mark of true ignorance. A real scientist would always keep an open mind, even if something is beyond his understanding, or especially because it is.

I promise not to refer to you as 'dearie' any longer, as only you are allowed to be condescending.

 

[godnotgod]

This is true. At this point of time, I would say that scientific knowledge and study of the nature of consciousness is incomplete, and using it to prove nondualism is a labor in futility, ....

Science uncovers partial truths and can never present a picture of the whole system all of a sudden. It is more like solving a jigsaw puzzle one at a time.

It's method is that of dissection of what it considers to be inert, unconscious 'material' reality. As it employs the use of data and facts as the basis for its theories, and as data and fact are held in memory to be retrieved as needed, they are like the traces of reality, and as such, are dead. Science cannot see that Reality must be apprehended wholly and intact, in the here and now, in order to realize that it is conscious and alive. It attempts to gain an understanding of the world by the accumulation of these facts and data in order to construct a model of reality, and then fit reality to that model, rather than to gain the understanding first, and then fit the data and facts to Reality, as it should be. But because science, as useful as it is, has the cart ahead of the horse, it's factual findings will always end in paradox, in spite of its vast storehouse of factual knowledge. As Alan Watts has said: 'the dead man speaks, and gives us all the boring facts, but tells us nothing.' IOW, all the factual knowledge in the world is meaningless until seen in the light of Reality itself. Phd's end up in a sobbing mess on their meditation cushions in Zen temples because they fail to intellectually 'figure it out'. A hard fall, to be sure.

But that does not mean that we have to wait two or three centuries for science to validate the nondualist philosophy, in order to experience samadhi or nirvikalpa samadhi for ourselves. Samadhi or nirvikalpa samadhi can be experienced by anyone by following the yogic, buddhist and advaitan philosophical methodologies meticulously to their legitimate conclusion.

These are ancient timetested philosophical systems created by ancient enlightened sages that produce repeatable and reliable results, along with bliss and joy, which is independent of impermanent external sensory objects or events ,and which modern materialism have utterly failed to provide.

...which is not to say that the one path need be discarded for the other. We need science and technology. Unfortunately, because man is spiritually immature, he ends up applying science and technology to the wrong priorities, creating gross imbalances and dangers. As my yogic brother used to say: "Men are like Big Apes with Big Toys'. It is fairly well-known that authentically mature spiritual people think quite differently than the ordinary man, who can't see past warfare and violence as solutions to social problems. The current state of affairs is that all the hard work of scientists and technologists are many times used for military and/or governmental control of others. I think it naive to suppose that space exploration is for the understanding of the cosmos when gaining a strategic military advantage is such a great temptation that it is seen as a necessity.

Yes, practitioners in different geographic locations and historic times have independently arrived at pretty much the same conclusions about the nature of Reality, so long as their view is clear. This is testament to the idea that consciousness is indeed universal, and is not different from one person to the next. Only when it is sculpted into a separate,individual 'self' who has lost touch with his source that 'a thicket of views' emerges.

The instances of Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj,H.W.Poonja, Annamalai Swami, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Nirmala Devi, Dada Gavand, Prem Nirmal, Anandmurti Gurumaa, Mooji, Byron Katie, Metta Zetty, Madhukar, Sailor Bob Adamson, Gilbert Schultz, John Wheeler, Charlie Hayes, Adyashanti, Jed Mckenna, Jeff Foster, Robert Adams, Douglas Harding, Eckhart Tolle, Isaac Shapiro,Dave Oshana, Jean Klein, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Barry Long, Franklin Merrell-Wolff , Ilie Cioara, Bernadette Roberts, Jan Frazier, Adam Oakley,Scott Kiloby, Greg Goode, Jac O Keeffe, Toni Packer, who all after experiencing enlightenment, through their own personal testimony have validated the teachings of the ancient enlightened masters, and are now teachers in their own right.

Add to this the growing number of scientists who have jumped the materialist paradigm bandwagon and now see a universe in a completely different light.

 

[godnotgod]

If he is a Buddha or enlightened sage, that will be one less guy who would be a potential berserk shooter. So good for him and America.

Don't even need to be a Buddha* or enlightened:

In 1993 a successful experiment was performed in Washington DC in America to demonstrate the effect of a large group of transcendental meditators on crime levels. Researchers predicted in advance that the calming influence of group meditation practice could reduce violent crime by over 20 percent in Washington, D.C., during an 8-week period in the summer of 1993.

In fact, the findings later showed that the rate of violent crime decreased by 23 percent during the June 7 to July 30 experimental period. The odds of this result occurring by chance are less than 2 in 1 billion.

This was a carefully controlled study. The demonstration project involved assembling in the D.C. area nearly 4,000 practitioners of Transcendental Meditation programs from 81 countries. The experiment was rigorously analyzed by a 27-member project review board composed of independent scientists and civic leaders who approved the research protocol and monitored the research process.

more here:

Scientific Evidence on the Power of Group Meditation, Prayer & Intention | Global Love

'course, these are probably just a bunch of fringe pseudo-scientists, the usual suspects.

*By the way, did you know that THE Buddha was also A buddha?
Zen source

 

[sayak83]

Yes, and elsewhere too....

..Vedanta Philosophy explains that the Brahman manifests Universe, just as rope appears snake (Vivarta vada). That is, there is only an apparent transformation of God into Universe. In case of snake, rope was the Upadana Karana/Material cause and in case of universe, Brahman is the Upadana Karana. This phenomenon of Apparent Manifestation is termed as “Maya” and the Power of Brahman to achieve it is termed as “Maya Shakti”...

In Brahman who is Unique, Eternal, without parts, Absolute, It is Maya which creates the distinctions of Man, World and God. There is nothing impossible for Maya.

Hence, it is Brahman who creates/manifests this universe using his power of Maya. Hence, Lord Krishna was described as Mayapati- Lord of Maya. In Bhagvad Gita, Lord Krishna says-


“ajo ’pi sann avyayatma
bhutanam isvaro ’pi san |
prakritim svam adhisthaya
sambhavamy atma-mayaya ||”(6)


Though I am birthless, undecaying by nature, and the Lord of beings, (still) by subjugating My Prakriti, I take birth by means of My own Maya.


Lord Krishna, an Avatara of God himself is proclaiming that he creates the whole universe by his power of Maya. But now a question arises, why did Brahman need to manifest this Apparent Universe? To achieve what goal?

The Shastras say that for God, the whole manifestation is just Lila/ a Divine play. It is a spontaneous manifestation for Brahman. This manifestation is not an activity/kartattva as in Paramarthika state, there is no duality of Karta and Karya. Brahman himself is Karta-doer, Karana-cause and the Karya-activity. Hence, the whole manifestation of Universe has been described as Lila- a spontaneous play. Further, because it is a Lila and not a Karya, there is no end goal or results to achieve because Brahman intends to achieve nothing as he is everything. It is Brahman’s very Svabhava/nature to continuously manifest and dissolve and re-manifest the cosmos. Hence, God is also called as “Lalita” meaning “She who plays” by Shaktas stressing the fact that playing Lila is God’s very own Svabhava.

Many people have this misconception that Maya and Lila are different and at times contradictory. But it is not so. They both refer to same phenomenon but only stressing on two different aspect of it. Whereas the term “Maya” stresses that Brahman is the Upadana Karana of this Universe, the term “Lila” stresses that Brahman is the “Nimitta Karana” of the Universe. “Maya” answers the question “How the Universe was created” and “Lila” answers the question “Why the Universe was created”.

The Two Aspects of Creation- Maya and Lila

The article referenced also refers to some scriptures called 'Shastras' which refer to the world as maya.

Here Maya means God's creative potency, not illusion. It's a power that God\Brahman has by which it manifests within it the diversified world of forms while retaining the unity in essence. While I agree with the test of your statements, I disagree that Maya is an illusion created by God. God does not seek to delude anyone.The illusion is on our part, of missing the inherent unity within the diversity, that is missing the tree among all the leaves and branches. The great upside down world tree is what it is, the error comes in not being able to perceive the unity of this tree.

 

[sayak83]

Don't even need to be a Buddha* or enlightened:

In 1993 a successful experiment was performed in Washington DC in America to demonstrate the effect of a large group of transcendental meditators on crime levels. Researchers predicted in advance that the calming influence of group meditation practice could reduce violent crime by over 20 percent in Washington, D.C., during an 8-week period in the summer of 1993.

In fact, the findings later showed that the rate of violent crime decreased by 23 percent during the June 7 to July 30 experimental period. The odds of this result occurring by chance are less than 2 in 1 billion.

This was a carefully controlled study. The demonstration project involved assembling in the D.C. area nearly 4,000 practitioners of Transcendental Meditation programs from 81 countries. The experiment was rigorously analyzed by a 27-member project review board composed of independent scientists and civic leaders who approved the research protocol and monitored the research process.

more here:

Scientific Evidence on the Power of Group Meditation, Prayer & Intention | Global Love

'course, these are probably just a bunch of fringe pseudo-scientists, the usual suspects.

*By the way, did you know that THE Buddha was also A buddha?
Zen source

What rubbish. Strange that all the transcendental meditation in the heydays of 1960-1970 only increased the crime rate, and it decreased it in 1993 ! It was a safe bet to do this pseudoscience though as the crime rate started to decrease precipitously from 1990 and had been doing so ever since.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Then you are smarter than Carl Jung, and his mind also is convoluted, and to think he has written voluminously with such a convoluted mind. I don't think so. I just think you are still hunkered down in the Plato's Cave of the individual self, convinced that the dancing shadows on the cave walls (ie 'Logic, Reason, and Analysis') represent true reality. Not your fault. That's just the limitation of your mind-world.

But I find it interesting that many physicists, who, having reached a certain point in their scientific understanding of the world, discover a greater dimension beyond mere scientific analysis. That is also what happened to Carl Jung, who went to the East for what was lacking in his knowledge of the mind. To dismiss these developments simply because they are not provable via factual knowledge is really a mark of true ignorance. A real scientist would always keep an open mind, even if something is beyond his understanding, or especially because it is.

I promise not to refer to you as 'dearie' any longer, as only you are allowed to be condescending.

Thank you. And I promise NOT to appear condescending. When I hear children trying convince me that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny truly exist, condescendence seems a natural psychological response. I don't claim that a universal consciousness or mind DOES NOT exist, I simply claim that there is no evidence to support such a claim. So far you have not presented anything verifiable or supportive, other than your special brand of convoluted logic, and "assertion only" rhetoric. You speak of "self" as some autonomous physical entity. It isn't! You infer that "self" is capable of manipulating perception, influencing the mind, and somehow altering the brain's perception of its own sensory inputs. Without evidence, pure fantasy. Carl Jung, like you, was guilty of abusing his pattern recognition skills. He looked for similarities in behavior and cognition, and extrapolated them to mean collective unconsciousness, consciousness, and evidence of some universal source. So, in some respects I AM SMARTER, since I try to avoid my own confirmation bias.

You asked the silly question, "where is the self located?". Self is a non-physical, non-dimensional perspective, or position that represents the brain's best-guess model of how our senses perceive reality. This model is represented in the form of consciousness and self-awareness. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything that we perceive through our senses, everything that we learn through our experiences, is represented in this conscious perspective, as reality. Without consciousness or self-awareness, there is no "self" or perspective. You don't seem to understand that our bodies are composed of many systems, that for the most part work in harmony with other systems. But they are independent systems nonetheless. They do not function at a conscious level, yet they are connected to the same nervous and endocrine systems. Can you imagine just how hard it would be to control all these systems at the conscious level? You also don't seem to understand, that consciousness, mind, self-awareness, universal consciousness and mind ARE ALL ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY FOR BASIC SURVIVAL. They play no role in man's purpose(survival and procreation).

I asked you questions, and provided logical evidence, to illustrate why the subjective perspective is all that exists to conceptualize our subjective reality. When you are looking at the computer, are you aware of anyone's experience in China? No! They only exist, from your subjective perspective, as part of the objective reality we cannot perceive. Since you can't "mind meld" with them, or step outside of your perspective "self", you are trapped within your own subjective reality/perspective. You simply dismissed my rationale as the voice of a limited mind. Since you won't address my logic without misrepresenting them, it is intellectually futile to argue with someone who, at best, is limited to parroting his beliefs without evidence.

If you want to believe in a universal consciousness, God(s), or a universal mind, that is your business. There are those that believe that having brown skin is punishment for disobeying God. Or, that if you believe hard enough, you can drink poison, get bitten by snakes, and remain unharmed. There are thousands of made-up beliefs, that is supported by thousands of made-up logic. Yours is simply one of them. Why can't you just explore all the wonders of your own uniqueness, and enjoy the mysteries of the world around you? Why the pseudo-sophistry of discontent? There is more to life then just questions and answers. Don

 

[YmirGF]

What rubbish. Strange that all the transcendental meditation in the heydays of 1960-1970 only increased the crime rate, and it decreased it in 1993 ! It was a safe bet to do this pseudoscience though as the crime rate started to decrease precipitously from 1990 and had been doing so ever since.

As a 40 year practitioner of TM, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The "study" quoted is just silliness.

 

[godnotgod]

What rubbish. Strange that all the transcendental meditation in the heydays of 1960-1970 only increased the crime rate, and it decreased it in 1993 ! It was a safe bet to do this pseudoscience though as the crime rate started to decrease precipitously from 1990 and had been doing so ever since.

What? The chart you posted is for the violent crime rate for the entire US, 1970 to 2013. The link to the study I posted was only for the Washington DC area for only 8 weeks in 1993:

"In 1993 a successful experiment was performed in Washington DC in America to demonstrate the effect of a large group of transcendental meditators on crime levels. Researchers predicted in advance that the calming influence of group meditation practice could reduce violent crime by over 20 percent in Washington, D.C., during an 8-week period in the summer of 1993...

[In]..the Global Consciousness Project...they found that a strong focus by the participants can create a very significant effect."

Scientific Evidence on the Power of Group Meditation, Prayer & Intention | Global Love

The TM practiced in Washington DC was a focused meditation. The period of the study you posted showing an increase in violent crime is coincidental to the heyday of TM. That period of TM was not a focused exercise on crime; it was practiced primarily for individual self-improvement.

No, TM does not increase crime. However, it is possible that the increased violence, for one, caused many to seek more peaceful solutions via TM.

 

[godnotgod]

As a 40 year practitioner of TM, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The "study" quoted is just silliness.

So after 40 years of TM, what? Only Inka?

 

[godnotgod]

You speak of "self" as some autonomous physical entity. It isn't!

Now you're making up crap.

You infer that "self" is capable of manipulating perception, influencing the mind, and somehow altering the brain's perception of its own sensory inputs

Identity does that.

Carl Jung, like you, was guilty of abusing his pattern recognition skills. He looked for similarities in behavior and cognition, and extrapolated them to mean collective unconsciousness, consciousness, and evidence of some universal source. So, in some respects I AM SMARTER, since I try to avoid my own confirmation bias.

Let's not be silly, OK? Carl Jung is a giant compared to you. What you say here is too simplistic. His ideas of the collective unconscious, of persona and shadow; of archetypes are far more sophisticated than that.

You asked the silly question, "where is the self located?". Self is a non-physical, non-dimensional perspective, or position that represents the brain's best-guess model of how our senses perceive reality. This model is represented in the form of consciousness and self-awareness. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything that we perceive through our senses, everything that we learn through our experiences, is represented in this conscious perspective, as reality. Without consciousness or self-awareness, there is no "self" or perspective.

No, humans see the self as something real; as an entity; as 'who I am'. So where is it located? It's not just a perspective or POV. It's what has the POV or perspective, a 'someone' that thinks and moves and acts upon the world.

You don't seem to understand that our bodies are composed of many systems, that for the most part work in harmony with other systems. But they are independent systems nonetheless. They do not function at a conscious level, yet they are connected to the same nervous and endocrine systems. Can you imagine just how hard it would be to control all these systems at the conscious level?

Exactly! And because it is impossible, consciousness relegated/programmed these systems to function below the conscious level, so that it could focus on what is immediately at hand, like a tiger in the bush, for example:

"Millions of years ago when our animal ancestors had to survive in the jungle,
it was necessary to have an instantly effective fight or flight mechanism.
When a tiger was about to spring, an automatic emotional response was a life
saver. A nervous shock was needed to squirt adrenalin into the blood so that
muscles became jet powered. Emotional alarms were needed to command
full attention. When a tiger was ready to jump, there was no time to admire
the beautiful sunset. As a jungle survival mechanism, our animal ancestors
were programmed for automatic duality -- automatic feelings of otherness,
threat, and paranoia. Survival required instant domination of consciousness
to meet the perils of the jungle"

Ken Keyes-Handbook to Higher Consciousness.pdf

You also don't seem to understand, that consciousness, mind, self-awareness, universal consciousness and mind ARE ALL ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY FOR BASIC SURVIVAL. They play no role in man's purpose(survival and procreation).

More made-up crap!

I asked you questions, and provided logical evidence, to illustrate why the subjective perspective is all that exists to conceptualize our subjective reality. When you are looking at the computer, are you aware of anyone's experience in China? No! They only exist, from your subjective perspective, as part of the objective reality we cannot perceive. Since you can't "mind meld" with them, or step outside of your perspective "self", you are trapped within your own subjective reality/perspective. You simply dismissed my rationale as the voice of a limited mind. Since you won't address my logic without misrepresenting them, it is intellectually futile to argue with someone who, at best, is limited to parroting his beliefs without evidence.

Even though we, like snowflakes, are all superficially different, we all have the same consciousness on a deeper level. Here, it is no longer 'my' consciousness; it's just pure consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. Many, like you, are not aware of this deeper level of consciousness due to the hyperactivity and 'noise' of the discursive mind. And so for you, it simply does not exist, just as The Sun absolutely does not exist for the prisoners in Plato's Cave. But all they need do is to go outside the cave and see it for themselves. Isn't that so?

If you want to believe in a universal consciousness, God(s), or a universal mind, that is your business. There are those that believe that having brown skin is punishment for disobeying God. Or, that if you believe hard enough, you can drink poison, get bitten by snakes, and remain unharmed. There are thousands of made-up beliefs, that is supported by thousands of made-up logic. Yours is simply one of them. Why can't you just explore all the wonders of your own uniqueness, and enjoy the mysteries of the world around you? Why the pseudo-sophistry of discontent? There is more to life then just questions and answers. Don

You're not paying attention! UC is not a belief, since it is without thought; it is an experience beyond the thinking mind, and partly for that reason, cannot be proven via Logic, Analysis, or Reason. Sort of like The Sun just outside of Plato's Cave, it is beyond the machinations of the cave wall shadows.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Now you're making up crap.



Identity does that.







No, humans see the self as something real; as an entity; as 'who I am'. So where is it located? It's not just a perspective or POV. It's what has the POV or perspective, a 'someone' that thinks and moves and acts upon the world.



Exactly! And because it is impossible, consciousness relegated/programmed these systems to function below the conscious level, so that it could focus on what is immediately at hand, like a tiger in the bush, for example:

"Millions of years ago when our animal ancestors had to survive in the jungle,
it was necessary to have an instantly effective fight or flight mechanism.
When a tiger was about to spring, an automatic emotional response was a life
saver. A nervous shock was needed to squirt adrenalin into the blood so that
muscles became jet powered. Emotional alarms were needed to command
full attention. When a tiger was ready to jump, there was no time to admire
the beautiful sunset. As a jungle survival mechanism, our animal ancestors
were programmed for automatic duality -- automatic feelings of otherness,
threat, and paranoia. Survival required instant domination of consciousness
to meet the perils of the jungle"

Ken Keyes-Handbook to Higher Consciousness.pdf



More made-up crap!



Even though we, like snowflakes, are all superficially different, we all have the same consciousness on a deeper level. Here, it is no longer 'my' consciousness; it's just pure consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. Many, like you, are not aware of this deeper level of consciousness due to the hyperactivity and 'noise' of the discursive mind. And so for you, it simply does not exist, just as The Sun absolutely does not exist for the prisoners in Plato's Cave. But all they need do is to go outside the cave and see it for themselves. Isn't that so?



You're not paying attention! UC is not a belief, since it is without thought; it is an experience beyond the thinking mind, and partly for that reason, cannot be proven via Logic, Analysis, or Reason. Sort of like The Sun just outside of Plato's Cave, it is beyond the machinations of the cave wall shadows.

Prove it! Stop all your silly denials and rhetorical drivel. Prove that the perception of self is what programs the physical brain. Prove that I am not smarter (in any way) than Carl Jung. Prove that a universal consciousness, mind, or perspective can and does exist. Prove that all human(I suppose animals are excluded) are all part of a universal consciousness or mind. Demonstrate how "identity" can affect the input signals from our senses to our physical brain. Prove that humans see "self " as real or a separate entity(I'm human, and I don't). Prove that "self" is not merely our subjective perspective, represented by a composite of compartmentalized bits of information stored throughout the physical brain. Prove that anything I have stated is false. Now let's look at the facts.

Fact, can we see through the minds of others? NO! Fact, can we see ourselves from any objective perspective? NO! Fact, are our senses the only connection our body has with our objective reality? YES! Fact, If the brain is dead, missing, or sedated, does conscious awareness still exist? NO!, Fact, can the brain be fooled by events outside the limits of its senses? YES! Fact, can we artificially manipulate, or change our perception of reality? YES! Fact, is there any event that we can cite that exist outside of the physical laws that govern reality itself(other than QM)? NONE! If you believe that the evidence, and logic I have presented is false, then PROVE IT! Why should I except your alternative reality explanation on faith alone? So far all I'm hearing is denial, insults, self-serving rhetoric, and one fallacy after another.

So, unless you can provide evidence to go with your assertions and made-up logic, we have nothing further to discuss. Don

 

[godnotgod]

Fact, If the brain is dead, missing, or sedated, does conscious awareness still exist? NO!,

Miraculous Cases of People Who Lived Without a Brain | Mysterious Universe

How Much of the Brain Can a Person Do Without?

also:

"In 1980 the journal Science reported that a student at Sheffield University with a slightly larger-than-normal head was found to have “virtually no brain”. That’s not quite a fair representation: scans showed that the outer 4.5 centimetres of the student’s brain had been crushed to a thickness of a few millimetres because the central part of the brain had been swelled by a flood of cerebrospinal fluid.


The man is still out there somewhere, presumably. He was in every respect a normal, functioning human being and gained a first-class degree in mathematics. You might even say that he was better than normal: he had an IQ of 126, where 100 is the average. Not that the brain-squeeze was responsible for that. A similar developmental abnormality was reported in the Lancet in 2007 in a 44-year-old French civil servant. His IQ was measured at 75."

How it is possible to live fairly normally with half your brain missing

 

[godnotgod]

Prove that the perception of self is what programs the physical brain.

That is not what I said. I said that consciousness, the fundamental reality, did.

Prove that I am not smarter (in any way) than Carl Jung.

The obvious requires no proof.

I have stated repeatedly that higher consciousness is not a belief; that it is an experience; that it is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis; that it is beyond proof via these tools; and that if you want confirmation, you need to go see for yourself. And yet you continue to ask for 'proof'.

Not too smart.

So what is your IQ?

insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.