Consensual sex could still be rape rules a UK high court-unbelievable

[MysticSang'ha]

Her fault was mostly because she expected the perfect stranger to be a master of non unexpected ejaculation. The fact that he had a deliberate evil intent was not necessary.

First, where did it say he was a perfect stranger?

Intent is not necessary? Seriously? Where in the law does it ever suggest that if a crime was committed that motivation is never a factor? Why are there varying degrees of murder if there was not such a distinction?

If she had forced him to use a condom and then after that he forced her stuffing the condom inside her while laughing maniacally, The situation would be different, but wven then and in the case you put too of the stranger being a complete and most deliberate a hole, there is still a degree of risk you put yourself into when having sex with strangers.

Sex is risky. If the risk resulted in an assault, the victim bears no responsibility....legally or morally.

Its just that in your example and this last one of mine, the risk was ridiculously small, when in the case of the man simply ejaculating without warning (even to himself) is extremelymore likely than either the woman or the man laughiing manically while they deliberately put the semen on the vagina against one of the participants wishes.

In the case in the OP, the man did not heed her wishes where she repeatedly said NO to internal ejaculation. This was not a case where they were having consensual sex, he's suddenly ready to ejaculate, and at the last minute she yells out, "Wait no! I've changed my mind!"

The case clearly stated she communicated her wishes AGAINST internal ejaculation, and clearly the man said he WILL NOT heed her request and will ejaculate inside her anyway.

Edit: ill correct myself: in the case she did it withh a stranger, the article doesnt say that and i am only arguing the pooint becaude you are implying there is no circumstance iwhich she would be partly responsible.

No one person is ever responsible for being a victim of assault. She was assaulted. Clear case of non-consent. He was 100% culpable and was forceful with his wishes.

 

[oldbadger]

Update:-

Not only did the Appeal Judges rule that this case will be tried,
Not only has the Met Rape Squad been increased in size, and been retrained and issued with new instructions,

But also, four counties are now running an experiment whereby any partner can request a police-check on their partner's sexual offence and criminal violence history.

Somebody is shaking things up, and it's looking fairly good..........

 

[Me Myself]

First, where did it say he was a perfect stranger?

Intent is not necessary? Seriously? Where in the law does it ever suggest that if a crime was committed that motivation is never a factor? Why are there varying degrees of murder if there was not such a distinction?



Sex is risky. If the risk resulted in an assault, the victim bears no responsibility....legally or morally.



In the case in the OP, the man did not heed her wishes where she repeatedly said NO to internal ejaculation. This was not a case where they were having consensual sex, he's suddenly ready to ejaculate, and at the last minute she yells out, "Wait no! I've changed my mind!"

The case clearly stated she communicated her wishes AGAINST internal ejaculation, and clearly the man said he WILL NOT heed her request and will ejaculate inside her anyway.



No one person is ever responsible for being a victim of assault. She was assaulted. Clear case of non-consent. He was 100% culpable and was forceful with his wishes.

By this point I am not talking of the OP. I am saying that one should be careful in general, and that having sex with strangers is, in itself, a risk. Having sex with strangers without condoms is downright stupid much of a high risk, for both a woman or a man.

No one is responsible for being assaulted, but they do can be respinsible for putting themselves at risk without need depending on the circumstances.

Having sex with a stranger without a condom is one of those circumstances. Now, there are degrees of risks, ultimately, everything in life is a risk, but an easy hint:

Having sex with a stranger using a condom( i would assume very mild risk)
Having sex with a stranger on the street while using a condom (bigger risk)
Having sex with a stranger without using a condom (...WHY?!)
Having sex with a stranger without condom in the street (you idiot....)

My first posts were first of all to what I know: the man did wrong. Thats it

Now these are merely a statement of fact that there are ways in which one can endanger him/herself needlessly, and depending on intensities and circumstances this can be very irresponsible.

 

[Me Myself]

For other examples: you dont leave your drink alone. Ever.

If you wake up without a liver because someone spiced your drink, but you knew you had to protect your drink and didnt, you are responsible for putting yourself at higher risk, but the other person is responsible for what s/he did.

Then again I d be less harsher to this person because that is a mistake of clumsiness.

Having sex without a condom with a stranger would be a mistake of lack of willpower against one owns lust. It could happen to any of usotentially, but itsot a backdoor assault like the mistake you dont notice

 

[MysticSang'ha]

For other examples: you dont leave your drink alone. Ever.

If you wake up without a liver because someone spiced your drink, but you knew you had to protect your drink and didnt, you are responsible for putting yourself at higher risk, but the other person is responsible for what s/he did.

Then again I d be less harsher to this person because that is a mistake of clumsiness.

Having sex without a condom with a stranger would be a mistake of lack of willpower against one owns lust. It could happen to any of usotentially, but itsot a backdoor assault like the mistake you dont notice

I think any law enforcement that tries to teach in any outreach campaign that in order to decrease the risk of kidnapping and black market organ trafficking one must do what they can to guard their drinks would be outrageous. Because, you know, if you find yourself without a liver you should be ashamed of yourself for not paying more attention to your drink.

Has anybody lectured somebody who has ever been a victim of armed burglary for being careless or stupid? Has anyone here ever been burglarized and then lectured for being irresponsible in some manner?

Our house was burglarized...in fact I wrote about it here due to an ice storm taking out our power, and we wound up staying at a relatives house for heat....and not once were we EVER asked if we did what we could to protect ourselves, and not once were we EVER put in a light that we were at all responsible for being burglarized.

So, I just want to get a clear picture here if anyone has had a different experience or would suggest to me or my husband or my children if we could have been more responsible.

Or is rape not as devastating as burglary? I'm a survivor of both, btw. And I can certainly give you my opinion.

 

[Me Myself]

I think any law enforcement that tries to teach in any outreach campaign that in order to decrease the risk of kidnapping and black market organ trafficking one must do what they can to guard their drinks would be outrageous. Because, you know, if you find yourself without a liver you should be ashamed of yourself for not paying more attention to your drink.

Has anybody lectured somebody who has ever been a victim of armed burglary for being careless or stupid? Has anyone here ever been burglarized and then lectured for being irresponsible in some manner?

Our house was burglarized...in fact I wrote about it here due to an ice storm taking out our power, and we wound up staying at a relatives house for heat....and not once were we EVER asked if we did what we could to protect ourselves, and not once were we EVER put in a light that we were at all responsible for being burglarized.

So, I just want to get a clear picture here if anyone has had a different experience or would suggest to me or my husband or my children if we could have been more responsible.

Or is rape not as devastating as burglary? I'm a survivor of both, btw. And I can certainly give you my opinion.

I dont know, here in Guayaquil if someone is robbed the first question is where.

If it was a bad street and the person was alone, yes, it is very common to remember the person not to endanger his life needlessly.

If I lend you my car and you leave the door opened in a bad neighbourhood and you have the car robbed because of it, be sure you will hear a mouthfull from me.

About a rape victim, I wouldnt be hasty to recriminate if she was foolish, because honestly she already had life do that. Ii would give her or him a mouthfull if I am aware s/he is about to do the same stupidity again, walk down the same alley alone, with jewelry, etc.

This things come from a desire that the person dont suffer from this things and nothing more. I have no doubt some people say them because they want to say how immoral it is to have sex putside of marriage or some silliness like that, but I am just speaking from practicality and safety, not morality.

Any rapist is 100% liable for what s/he does, but if the victim knowingly put him/herself on a circumstance of high danger risk, of course they re responsible for knowingly putting themselves in high risk of danger.

Again, if e guy wasnt an a hole, but ejaculated prematurely accidentally, there is no rape, but the same health and parental problem arises. What then?

 

[Alceste]

What does sex with a stranger have to do with the OP? Are we so desperate to find fault with the victim that we're making up details to support our rush to judgement?

 

[Me Myself]

What does sex with a stranger have to do with the OP? Are we so desperate to find fault with the victim that we're making up details to support our rush to judgement?

Nothing. which rush of judgement?

In any case, what I am saying is that each should try to take responsibility for him/herself.

As I said already, the man comitted obvius rape (or sexual assault to the least)

Though the woman is still partly responsible for her pregnancy because she risked it the second she decided to have sex without condom.

Because if the man hadnt been an a hole. He could still simply have had an accident.

Why did she risked the man having an accident?

 

[Alceste]

Nothing. which rush of judgement?

In any case, what I am saying is that each should try to take responsibility for him/herself.

As I said already, the man comitted obvius rape (or sexual assault to the least)

Though the woman is still partly responsible for her pregnancy because she risked it the second she decided to have sex without condom.

Because if the man hadnt been an a hole. He could still simply have had an accident.

Why did she risked the man having an accident?

There's a difference between consensual and non-consensual idiocy.

Let's say I agree to go bungee jumping with you on the condition that both ends of the cord are tied securely. That's risky, and I clearly am willing to accept a certain, negotiated amount of risk. But if you decide not to tie one end of the cable, the consequences are entirely your responsibility. Not mine.

 

[Me Myself]

There's a difference between consensual and non-consensual idiocy.

Let's say I agree to go bungee jumping with you on the condition that both ends of the Cord are tied securely. That's risky, and I clearly am willing to accept that amount of risk. But if you decide not to tie one end of the cable, the consequences are entirely your responsibility. Not mine.

You are treating resnsibility as if it was apples. Where it is impossible for both of us to eat the whole same apple.

I disagree to that.

If someone cuts the rope, he is comletely responsible for the effects afterwards, but you are still partly responsible. If He was a stranger you are more responsible for the ills that befall you than if he was a close personal friend, but on both cases the person who cut it is still completely responsible.

If I lend you a car and you leave it in a bad neighbourhood with the door opened, the one who steals you the car is completely responsible for stealing it, but arent you steal responsible for puting it on such a risky situation in which it could so much more easily be robbed?

 

[Me Myself]

Are you or arent you responsible for risking my car?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What does sex with a stranger have to do with the OP? Are we so desperate to find fault with the victim that we're making up details to support our rush to judgement?

That's what my thought was too.

Somehow, someway, she has to be an ignorant ****....and let's figure out how!

 

[Me Myself]

That's what my thought was too.

Somehow, someway, she has to be an ignorant ****....and let's figure out how!

I am sorry you had to live that, but not everyone who tries to point out better safety is needed is like that.

Nothing I ve said would be different for a guy.

Its simply that we must not turn careless in the name of justice. Acting as if the world is ideal doesnt make it so (unfortunately).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am sorry you had to live that, but not everyone who tries to point out better safety is needed is like that.

Nothing I ve said would be different for a guy.

Its simply that we must not turn careless in the name of justice. Acting as if the world is ideal doesnt make it so (unfortunately).

I've taken martial arts and self-defense classes for the last 15 years.

I've been trained in knifework and weapons handling.

Soon enough I will get to shoot a gun again and be able to receive tactical training in how to work with an armed group of people should a zombie apocalypse occur (well, not really, but it's what I tell myself ).

I began all of this to help myself feel safer and more prepared should I be attacked again in the future. Guess what? My self-defense and martial arts training was no help in preventing the burglary. Now here's the kicker....

The response I received after being burglarized was FAR different and MUCH MORE compassionate than after being raped and left on the side of the road to die. Nobody ever suggested that I should have utilized my training in self defense to stop the burglars from forcefully entering our house, damaging much of our furniture, and stealing all our valuables. Nobody ever made mention about how careless we were, how we left ourselves open and vulnerable, or how we should take more caution next time an ice storm happens. Basically, ALL people we've talked to recognized we were victimized and that the perpetrators should be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

My actions, my words, my reaction, my clothing, the relationship to the man who raped me.....all were brought up as relevant in the crime committed. People applaud how I'm trying to defend myself from rape because I'm....apparently....taking responsibility. But nobody has yet in the 7 years since we were burglarized how my self-defense and knifework is going to help prevent any further burglaries in our house.

I've also been questioned about whether or not I was actually raped, and that I was just making it up. But NOT ONCE was I ever held under any suspicion when I mentioned we were burglarized.

The differences in responses by law enforcement, by acquaintances, by friends, and by total strangers on the internet is glaring.

 

[Me Myself]

I've taken martial arts and self-defense classes for the last 15 years.

I've been trained in knifework and weapons handling.

Soon enough I will get to shoot a gun again and be able to receive tactical training in how to work with an armed group of people should a zombie apocalypse occur (well, not really, but it's what I tell myself ).

I began all of this to help myself feel safer and more prepared should I be attacked again in the future. Guess what? My self-defense and martial arts training was no help in preventing the burglary. Now here's the kicker....

The response I received after being burglarized was FAR different and MUCH MORE compassionate than after being raped and left on the side of the road to die. Nobody ever suggested that I should have utilized my training in self defense to stop the burglars from forcefully entering our house, damaging much of our furniture, and stealing all our valuables. Nobody ever made mention about how careless we were, how we left ourselves open and vulnerable, or how we should take more caution next time an ice storm happens. Basically, ALL people we've talked to recognized we were victimized and that the perpetrators should be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

My actions, my words, my reaction, my clothing, the relationship to the man who raped me.....all were brought up as relevant in the crime committed. People applaud how I'm trying to defend myself from rape because I'm....apparently....taking responsibility. But nobody has yet in the 7 years since we were burglarized how my self-defense and knifework is going to help prevent any further burglaries in our house.

I've also been questioned about whether or not I was actually raped, and that I was just making it up. But NOT ONCE was I ever held under any suspicion when I mentioned we were burglarized.

The differences in responses by law enforcement, by acquaintances, by friends, and by total strangers on the internet is glaring.

I have very little doubt that there might be a trend to blame the victim when you are at when it comes to rape and it honstly sucks some people are such a holes.

I ve never heard something similar here. Not for dress at leadt, but yes for the places you walk on and if you are alone or not, and this is exactly as they ask when you are robbed.

If I hear a woman was raped, I do not at all think "what did she do!" First, first i think what kind of a hole does something like that. Then yeah, there is a cinematic going on on my head but I dont pretend to know the scenario if I wasnt there, and trust me, I wished we lived in a world when one shouldnt treat people like wild animals one should try to be prepared for or defend oneself against.

I (pesonally) would neve rput to blame a woman for not screaming if raped, for such a thraumatic event can make one react in several ways, or it could also be the more rational side acting in caution as the fear of the victimizer to try to quiet the victim out the very worst ways.

I was simply pointing out that having sex without condoms is unadvisable. It isnt even about morality, but personal safety. It id not something I see myself above anyways. Anyone can make mistakes.

Its just a situation of trying to minimize risks when possible, this shouldnt be taken at all as sometng that in any way makes the victimizer not a victimizer or a victim an accomplice.

 

[Me Myself]

I do need to ask again:

If You lend me your car and I park it in the worst part of town with e door opened as I went for groceries (and took too much time for I stumbled with a pair of friends in the way) and the car gets robbed:

Am I responsible in any way for what happened?

Is the robber any less responsible?

Because my take is I am responsible for knowingly putting your car on a high risk scenario, and the robber is still completely responsible for the stealing.

Know if you lend me your car while me being a complete stranger in the first place, arent you again to blame for risking your car in such a way?

 

[Watchmen]

I don't think it's correct to allow a woman to file a complaint against a man whom she allowed to penetrate her, regradrless of whether or not the ejaculation inside her was consensual. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. You might disagree, but that's my opinion. It's not even enforceable anyway, too much holes in this ruling.

speaking of "too many holes," what if the woman consented to vaginal sex, but the aggressive man engaged in anal sex. What would the result be under your reasoning? rape or not?

 

[Aquitaine]

I completely recommend it. Much better than gopher holes, with far less gnawing.

Didn't recognise the slang used in your post, had to Google it - thanks a lot Wirey... :tsk:

 

[Me Myself]

I don't think

Thats the problem.

 

[Aquitaine]

Update:-

Not only did the Appeal Judges rule that this case will be tried,
Not only has the Met Rape Squad been increased in size, and been retrained and issued with new instructions,

But also, four counties are now running an experiment whereby any partner can request a police-check on their partner's sexual offence and criminal violence history.

Somebody is shaking things up, and it's looking fairly good..........

LOL - Met Rape Squad :biglaugh:

Surely that can't be it's real name?!