Contradicting "messengers"

[TransmutingSoul]

The only reason I respond to the comments of Baha’is is not to change their minds or beliefs but hopefully to let non-Hindus know how wrong the Baha’i view of Hinduism is.

I see we need to learn from each other, but in the context of the age we live in.

If we are all being guided by God, then we will find purpose in all genuine exchanges of knowledge.

The issue we all face is, what truths are from our own imaginations and what are from the source of all knowledge?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the thing about Baha’i belief that pisses off Hindus … changing what is Hindu canon and making it what they want it to be.

What Baha'is are doing that? Disagreeing is not changing. All religions disagree on certain things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, and she says that living the same day over and over would not be funny? She needs to watch the movie. Yes, it is hell for Bill Murray.

Always loved that movie.

There have been quite a few movies with that concept used as well.

Edge of Tomorrow was great. Source code interesting, but Skytreck series have also used it.

Regards Tony

 

[Jainarayan]

From what I understand, the soul does traverse many worlds of God, it appears that those worlds are within or around this world, so there is no real separation.

We believe in a multiverse. The soul can be reborn in any universe, any time because time is not linear. If it’s true, a soul’s karma and rebirths can become a real **** show what with undoing, redoing, doing actions that have an effect on karma.

The Baha'i Writings do offer that the human soul has one chance in this world and in this world can obtain to all the virtues that enable the progress through all the worlds of God.

Regards Tony

Seems to be the influence of Abrahamic tradition. Yet there are hints even in the Bible of rebirth. For example the Pharisees asking if Jesus was John the Baptist returned from the dead. Obviously they didn’t think John resurrected as John, as Lazarus resurrected as Lazarus, but it seems they believed John took on a new body.

I think there are some Eastern influences at least on Jesus. Much of his teachings seems to reflect the Bhagavad Gita. I don’t believe in the Jesus-went-to-India hypothesis, but I believe that very possibly India went to Jesus, via merchants, traveling monks, teachers, philosophers, and etc.

 

[Secret Chief]

This is the thing about Baha’i belief that pisses off Hindus … changing what is Hindu canon and making it what they want it to be.

Same with Buddhism.

The only reason I respond to the comments of Baha’is is not to change their minds or beliefs but hopefully to let non-Hindus know how wrong the Baha’i view of Hinduism is.

Same with Buddhism.

 

[Secret Chief]

What Baha'is are doing that? Disagreeing is not changing. All religions disagree on certain things.

To try to gloss over this as simply some disagreement seems disingenuous. You can't seem to (publicly) grasp the essential difference. Islam disagrees with Buddhism. Obviously. But...and this is the point... Islam is not saying "Buddhism is really Islam, it's just that Buddhists don't understand their own corrupted religion."

Of course the irony is that bahais say they are wanting to have a unified world but they are stuck with a narrative that just ****** people off.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What are those Hindu Scriptures that you believe were misinterpreted?

If you read up on the history of the topic of reincarnation one can see it has many variations.

Reincarnation - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah has confirmed the human soul does go through many worlds of God. As such one can assume each is a matrix where we are born from one reality into another.

I quote from Wiki, just to show there is compatibility.

"The Jaina philosophy assumes that the soul (jiva in Jainism; atman in Hinduism) exists and is eternal, passing through cycles of transmigration and rebirth."

The Baha'i Writings explain this is through all the worlds of God. It is passing from one reality (matrix) into another. We are told the soul does not have another life in this matrix.

"After death, reincarnation into a new body is asserted to be instantaneous in early Jaina texts. Depending upon the accumulated karma, rebirth occurs into a higher or lower bodily form, either in heaven or hell or earthly realm. No bodily form is permanent: everyone dies and reincarnates further."

Thus is very compatible with the Baha'i Writings in the context of a new frame of reference. Baha'u'llah confirms the transition is instantaneous, the transition is in the capacity we have reached in this matrix. So we may be like a rock in the next matrix, if we have remained spiritually unaware.

"Liberation (kevalya) from reincarnation is possible, however, through removing and ending karmic accumulations to one's soul."

I see this is also discussed in other religious scriptures. To me that is what Jesus said when He offered we must be born again from the flesh into the Spirit. The Baha'i writings expanded upon this saying we do have a chance to obtain all the virtues, here, now, which enables us to traverse all the worlds of God in the blink of an eye. If we do not, we will need to progress through all the worlds of God.

"From the early stages of Jainism on, a human being was considered the highest mortal being, with the potential to achieve liberation, particularly through asceticism."

Thus is what the Baha'i Writings also offer. It is the Manifestations that are created in God's Image, a perfect Human with the capacity of all Morals and Virtues. It is for obtaining those morals and virtues that we are created for, in that image of the Messengers. We are created on the end of darkness and at the beginning of light. The potential and purpose are as noted in the passages above.

I hope you can see CG, there is much that could be discussed.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

Baha'u'llah has confirmed the human soul does go through many worlds of God.

Loving the use of the word confirmed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We believe in a multiverse. The soul can be reborn in any universe, any time because time is not linear. If it’s true, a soul’s karma and rebirths can become a real **** show what with undoing, redoing, doing actions that have an effect on karma.



Seems to be the influence of Abrahamic tradition. Yet there are hints even in the Bible of rebirth. For example the Pharisees asking if Jesus was John the Baptist returned from the dead. Obviously they didn’t think John resurrected as John, as Lazarus resurrected as Lazarus, but it seems they believed John took on a new body.

I think there are some Eastern influences at least on Jesus. Much of his teachings seems to reflect the Bhagavad Gita. I don’t believe in the Jesus-went-to-India hypothesis, but I believe that very possibly India went to Jesus, via merchants, traveling monks, teachers, philosophers, and etc.

Personally I see that Jesus did give His life on the Cross.

I do not think Jesus had time to expand on many teachings, and given the audience, was unable to devolve much about the mystical aspects of faith.

Yet I see it is all contained in a few simple passages. John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus never spoke of the many worlds, it was hard enough for them to understand that there was another matrix to come, let alone an eternity of possibilities.

This is where I see the eastern religions and the more ancient cultures have it all over the mindset that has become Christianity.

I see Islam is also bogged down in a finality as well.

The future will be great when we shake of many shackles of built up dogma. We have so much to explore, yet we have predudices, greed and war.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

To try to gloss over this as simply some disagreement seems disingenuous.

Calling it what it is, a disagreement, is honest, not disingenuous.
People can agree to disagree.

Of course the irony is that bahais say they are wanting to have a unified world but they are stuck with a narrative that just ****** people off.

We just follow what our religion teaches. It is not our fault that other people are pissed off.
We have a right to our beliefs just as you have a right to your beliefs.
We cannot change what Baha'u'llah revealed just because some people are pissed off.
We cannot unify with people who do not want to unify because they are pissed off.

 

[Trailblazer]

Loving the use of the word confirmed.

Revealed or taught would be a better word choice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Loving the use of the word confirmed.

Maybe ones prayers are answered when one can use confirmed, maybe it is just self-righteousness?

I can only ask, then try to reflect what I pray for.

Spoiler: Confirmation Prayer

"Create in me a pure heart, O my God, and renew a tranquil conscience within me, O my Hope! Through the spirit of power confirm Thou me in Thy Cause, O my Best-Beloved, and by the light of Thy glory reveal unto me Thy path, O Thou the Goal of my desire! Through the power of Thy transcendent might lift me up unto the heaven of Thy holiness, O Source of my being, and by the breezes of Thine eternity gladden me, O Thou Who art my God! Let Thine everlasting melodies breathe tranquillity on me, O my Companion, and let the riches of Thine ancient countenance deliver me from all except Thee, O my Master, and let the tidings of the revelation of Thine incorruptible Essence bring me joy, O Thou Who art the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden!" Bahá’u’lláh

Regards Tony

 

[soulsurvivor]

We believe that to be Baha’u’llah and He explains that it is a misconception and misinterpretation. That rebirth and return signify spiritual rebirth.

Bahaullah has not had much impact compared to Krishna, Jesus or Muhammad (pbuh) - so he not in their class at all.

Bahaullah also did not fulfill this hadith: Hadith of Jesus praying behind Mahdi - Wikipedia

 

[Secret Chief]

Calling it what it is, a disagreement, is honest, not disingenuous.
People can agree to disagree.

We just follow what our religion teaches. It is not our fault that other people are pissed off.
We have a right to our beliefs just as you have a right to your beliefs.
We cannot change what Baha'u'llah revealed just because some people are pissed off.
We cannot unify with people who do not want to unify because they are pissed off.

So stop nicking from other, different religious paradigms and twisting them to your own ends.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans science history. A human. The storyteller. Can't tell a story unless you're present. Now a human the human.

Human. Our first truth.

Thinks. Survival with his human woman life partner is first.

So you are all living surviving. First. Natural laws. Animals weren't theists or scientists versus natural life. Pretty basic advice.

The variation you are now baby adult humans.

Thinking says so baby humans are now the creator. As they are. Of their owned life.

As our pre history is microbial types as sperm ovary. Exact science. Is first is never a thesis.

Two bodies full bodies of the human. One owning sperm in his body. The woman owning ovary.

History says our human parents are our origin. One species. A human.

They are not your life as biology their bodies owned sperm or ovary. As their two types of bodies. So microbial law is within the two parents adult human bodies.

Their God within continues human life.

Two exact humans not your life.

Sex is now dominion.

So just a human theist. A human. Thinks and theories.

That human is told the same advice now a human origin body is now dusts. In suns laws. As bio was time shifted.

Yet the story to theory first is old. And near to life's origins as the baby adult whose parents bodies weren't yet dusts then. The origin theist.

The theist. Is the answer.

The sun changed bodies of energy in mass to its highest outcome versus space womb...dusts.

So dusts not mass says science today is the suns highest law. Only pressures hold mass as mass now. Don't change pressures.

So don't change God or god the mass could pressure Explode losing its inside O + cross. It's pressurised four cornerstones. Wings. LLLL value + holy Cross.

Symbolic.

Not science. As symbolic thesis is first science. Not calculus. As calculus was added + fake cross to destroy mass.

Man on ground stands on mass as mass. Living in heavens holy Cross + four seasons.

The day gases alight. It's fuel sun dusts as light.

Same day.

Yet four seasons pressures changed that day daily. Holy Cross owner.

Men built a machine they already took evilly out of gods holy Cross laws as it body seams. Molten cold metal.

Machine now an evil body. As it bodily owned a cornerstone of pressure to be built. Time transported as man's thesis a machine only is exact.

His owned advice...he built conjured evil was the machine. Took gods pressured seam away from natural earth laws pressures holy Cross within.

UFO sun law vacuum voiding with our heavens forms cold metals too. We've seen the manifestation. Space womb holy mother saved life on earth. If it hadn't become cold no life would even exist.

It attacked every nation. Hot metal. Now space law owns it forced cold.

So today there is no beginning thesis. The old science thesis was about Rome rebuilding technology who attacked life again. Hot metal UFO ark lost its cooling attacked sacrificed life on gods ground stone altar.

Told.

By changing earths tectonic cross pressures within. And above. Holy Cross...pressures is all that's left owning earth as earth.

Science is a liar. Pretty basic.

So science says no messenger of a man can ever be correct as no man was ever a God or the God.

As a Theist however he interprets his own nations outcome only.

As in every nation our parents tribal natural DNA was sacrificed.

Each national father hence titled it by his new nations DNA. Not father's origin.

It's the exact same story.

How science of men using temple pyramid nuclear technology shifted earths mountain mass above us into dusts. Fell into piles as law changed at its feet.

As temple transmitters man's machine built on mountains above us in the heavens caused it.

Clouds burnt fell the angels of God above.

All life was sacrificed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah has not had much impact compared to Krishna, Jesus or Muhammad (pbuh) - so he not in their class at all.

Bahaullah also did not fulfill this hadith: Hadith of Jesus praying behind Mahdi - Wikipedia

That is because the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled them together.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s not Hindu canon. Everyone, Hindu or otherwise know exactly what Krishna taught, in real time. Krishna spoke directly to Arjuna at Kurukshetra. Granted no one was physically there to hear the conversation. However, Sanjaya, King Dhritarashtra’s secretary was given divine sight. He narrated the events as he saw them in real time. So Krishna did actually teach it. The writing, as Hindus believe was accomplished by Lord Ganesha as it occurred. This is the thing about Baha’i belief that pisses off Hindus … changing what is Hindu canon and making it what they want it to be.

Yeah, um … no.

I’m all for knowing the different ways Krishna is presented, and most importantly, where.

The Bhagavad Gita is part of the Mahābhārata, 18 chapters of it, not a separate work. This is one of the things about Baha’i belief that pisses off Hindus … changing what is Hindu canon. Even if it were transmitted orally and all written down years later one must understand the extreme care taken in orally transmitting scriptures. The Vedas even today can be recited from memory without deviation. There are rules within Sanskrit for the memorization. Children begin to learn it at an early age.

The only reason I respond to the comments of Baha’is is not to change their minds or beliefs but hopefully to let non-Hindus know how wrong the Baha’i view of Hinduism is.

The Baha'i claims it is The Truth from the one true God. The Baha'i Faith has committed itself to the belief that reincarnation and/or rebirth as taught by Hindus and Buddhists is a false teaching. Therefore, for them, it can't be something that was taught by Buddha, Krishna or any other of the Hindu incarnations/avatars.

However, if it was taught by them, then the Baha'i Faith is wrong. And for a religion that also claims that all religions are one and all came from the same source, they sure have to do a lot of "readjusting" of the beliefs of those other religions to make them fit into Baha'i beliefs.

I think they fit in with Shia Islam the best. But with Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism and all the other religions they ignore like Sikhism, Shintoism, and Confucianism, they don't fit very well... that is, until they make their "adjustments" to the beliefs of those other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is because the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled them together.

Regards Tony

This is a quote from Soulsurvivor's link...

Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi (Persian: حدیث نماز خواندن عیسی به امامت مهدی) refers to a collection of hadith related to the prophecy that after Jesus (Isa) descends from heaven to join the Mahdi and his followers in the final days before the destruction of Earth, Jesus will decline the offer of the Mahdi to lead the Mahdi and company in salat (Islamic ritual prayer which Muslims perform five times a day) telling the Mahdi to lead.
​

When did the Bab and Baha'u'llah do that? And it says "Jesus". What are Baha'is going to claim now that Baha'u'llah is Jesus? It was already pushing it when Baha'is claim that he is the return of the Christ "spirit" and that in Revelation, Baha'u'llah is God, and the Bab is the Lamb. Lots of creative interpreting going on.

 

[CG Didymus]

These seeming contradictions between the Messengers actually comes down to conflicting interpretations of the followers.

And name a few... What are those "conflicting" interpretations made by the followers? The contradictions I bring up are the actual words in the Scriptures. Like the Bible says Isaac. Baha'u'llah says Ishmael. The NT says Jesus was alive. The Baha'i Faith says he died and stayed dead. The Bible says the Noah was more than 900 years old when he died. Baha'u'llah says that Noah, "For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace." But Baha'is don't believe that Noah was really that old. Baha'is make Adam a manifestation. The Bible makes him the reason why God cursed humans and the Earth.

Which ones were you thinking of?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that it would be interesting to find out what he thinks about the content of the book.

He called today and said he wanted to discuss the book but we did but he did not say much about the content of the book. I think he only read the chapters I sent him, 4-9, because he told me he would. He doesn't think there is any proof that there is an afterlife, so unlike me, he is not sure there is an afterlife. Also unlike me, he does not believe that there are psychic mediums who can communicate with spirits in the spiritual world and get information about the spiritual world.

He doesn't think we should dwell on the afterlife. He thinks we should focus on this life. He thinks that the purpose of this life is to love and cherish, caring, sharing, and appreciating, and being grateful for the things that we have. I cannot argue with that, but that doesn't mean we cannot also 'live in eternity,' as the book says, having the long range goal in mind while still focusing on the present.

We come to appreciate the words of Mozart that "death as we consider it closely, is the true goal of our existence."
(The Afterlife Revealed, p. 14)