Contradicting "messengers"

[Dawnofhope]

The Baha'i claims it is The Truth from the one true God. The Baha'i Faith has committed itself to the belief that reincarnation and/or rebirth as taught by Hindus and Buddhists is a false teaching.

Correct.

Therefore, for them, it can't be something that was taught by Buddha, Krishna or any other of the Hindu incarnations/avatars.

That's right.

However, if it was taught by them, then the Baha'i Faith is wrong.

True.

And for a religion that also claims that all religions are one and all came from the same source, they sure have to do a lot of "readjusting" of the beliefs of those other religions to make them fit into Baha'i beliefs.

You are aware that reincarnation is viewed differently in Buddhism and Hinduism?

For Baha'is, the contradictions between Hinduism and to a lesser extent Buddhism are relatively easy to resolve. There are no scriptures that can be reliably and credibly attributed to Krishna or Buddha. If Hindus and Buddhists wish to believe there is, that's fine. However if the same standards of reliability used for the Gospels and the Quran are applied to Hindu scriptures, there simply no evidence for Krishna and the evidence is weak at best for Buddhism IMHO. Most Western scholars would agree.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you read up on the history of the topic of reincarnation one can see it has many variations.

Reincarnation - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah has confirmed the human soul does go through many worlds of God. As such one can assume each is a matrix where we are born from one reality into another.

I quote from Wiki, just to show there is compatibility.

"The Jaina philosophy assumes that the soul (jiva in Jainism; atman in Hinduism) exists and is eternal, passing through cycles of transmigration and rebirth."

The Baha'i Writings explain this is through all the worlds of God. It is passing from one reality (matrix) into another. We are told the soul does not have another life in this matrix.

"After death, reincarnation into a new body is asserted to be instantaneous in early Jaina texts. Depending upon the accumulated karma, rebirth occurs into a higher or lower bodily form, either in heaven or hell or earthly realm. No bodily form is permanent: everyone dies and reincarnates further."

Thus is very compatible with the Baha'i Writings in the context of a new frame of reference. Baha'u'llah confirms the transition is instantaneous, the transition is in the capacity we have reached in this matrix. So we may be like a rock in the next matrix, if we have remained spiritually unaware.

"Liberation (kevalya) from reincarnation is possible, however, through removing and ending karmic accumulations to one's soul."

I see this is also discussed in other religious scriptures. To me that is what Jesus said when He offered we must be born again from the flesh into the Spirit. The Baha'i writings expanded upon this saying we do have a chance to obtain all the virtues, here, now, which enables us to traverse all the worlds of God in the blink of an eye. If we do not, we will need to progress through all the worlds of God.

"From the early stages of Jainism on, a human being was considered the highest mortal being, with the potential to achieve liberation, particularly through asceticism."

Thus is what the Baha'i Writings also offer. It is the Manifestations that are created in God's Image, a perfect Human with the capacity of all Morals and Virtues. It is for obtaining those morals and virtues that we are created for, in that image of the Messengers. We are created on the end of darkness and at the beginning of light. The potential and purpose are as noted in the passages above.

I hope you can see CG, there is much that could be discussed.

Regards Tony

But the Baha'i claim is that it wasn't taught by Krishna. So then, where did those Scriptures come from? If you want to say that Hindu spiritual leaders made them up, fine. But then Baha'is should come out and clearly say that they don't believe the Scriptures of the other religions, and don't believe what those other religions teach. And, as far as I can tell, Baha'is don't... unless it is to quote something that they can use to "prove" that their religion, the Baha'i Faith, is true.

I can see why the way Baha'is are doing it, is upsetting people in the other religions. But... do Baha'is care? What do Baha'is do when they meet a Hindu or Buddhist. Like let's say you meet the Dalai Lama... And he tells you about being reincarnated. What do you tell him? That he is wrong? And doesn't know what he talking about? If you think you aren't doing just that, then think again. That is exactly what you are telling them. And if that is what you believe, then say it. Don't mess around and say that all religions are one... originally. But that now the religion is all messed up and nowhere near being true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a quote from Soulsurvivor's link...

Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi (Persian: حدیث نماز خواندن عیسی به امامت مهدی) refers to a collection of hadith related to the prophecy that after Jesus (Isa) descends from heaven to join the Mahdi and his followers in the final days before the destruction of Earth, Jesus will decline the offer of the Mahdi to lead the Mahdi and company in salat (Islamic ritual prayer which Muslims perform five times a day) telling the Mahdi to lead.
​

When did the Bab and Baha'u'llah do that? And it says "Jesus". What are Baha'is going to claim now that Baha'u'llah is Jesus? It was already pushing it when Baha'is claim that he is the return of the Christ "spirit" and that in Revelation, Baha'u'llah is God, and the Bab is the Lamb. Lots of creative interpreting going on.

That is an interpretation of spiritual truths given in metephor.

You get to read them, you get to read what Baha'u'llah offered and then come up with what you see in them CG.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

Rome correlated all of the Jewish reviewed old testaments advices. Don't rebuild temple. Yet in wisdom they knew that the Egyptian Jews remembered the technology.

So Jews with Roman takeover built the henges as an updated model. In full awareness the human theist always believed they control all space laws.

Yet all they are is a human on earth who uses technology.

So those families were forbidden to return to their homeland for assisting Rome. Judas to their own people.

Notice how the greater community is sciences victim?

Therefore when the written testimonies were correlated as legally binding from witnessed continued star fall attacks. By Rome.

The Muslim community in their nation gained the star fall like Russia has. After the correlated data.

It changed their biological mind as a heavy metal star released above heavens in their nation.

Meaning tribal family DNA was changed again with mind. History proved Muslims wanted to rebuild the Jerusalem science temple again. Against Mohammed's old teachings.

Why war ensued. Some Muslim tribes sided with the English European Roman treaty no science.

So Baha'i weren't doing anything wrong. They were new advisors in their nation that their nations father history had altered again.

Documented it.

The teachings were about legal and governing histories....greedy man's known old abuses. Which they tried to bring to Muslim leaders as advisors.

As Jesus was the legal beginning a new document legal governing for humans mutual equal rights. Not the bible. Man's owned natural spiritual awareness is as he lives.

Isn't about science as an updated science model. A human isn't science.

Science is direct to all conditions a machine. And a reaction that hasn't yet begun inside the machines body.

So no reaction even exists. Why the theory of it is fake. If man was correct nuclear power plant would never shut down. As over heating.

Man's mistake is believing he controlled spatial cooling history.

Reason. If biology was invented by a lying satanist scientist man. Then the sun boring origin sin in planet mass would burn us all to death standing on earths base as first natural history a space reaction.

Science man did it himself. Caused new sin holes by science machine. Proved his theorising fake. A greedy man however says I care less what I change we still survived.

Not any of your advice says a machines small reaction is first.

You compared your want for a not yet reacting machine to what a sun mass did first to earth.

Your belief just a small star mass isn't spatial history why earth owns gas alight above.

Man theoried small star mass I want its power yet reacted earths bases to get it. Didn't get it from above stars mass.

Took it from earth vacuum voided melded with suns star mass saved from sun attack. Why new sin K holes opened. As he doesn't own vacuum void history.

The sun men knew consumes fuel.

The void vacuum only stopped it.

Men taught a sun still only consumes fuel.

Man's consciousness said his life was supported above by spirits gas burning. Not sun fuel in out of space consuming to own light.

And it's only held above in laws.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah has not had much impact compared to Krishna, Jesus or Muhammad (pbuh) - so he not in their class at all.

That is an unfair comparison.

How long ago did Krishna live? Jesus? Muhammad?
Now compare that with Baha'u'llah and come back in 1200 years or so and ask what class Baha'u'llah is in.

Krishna appeared on this earth, at midnight, approximately 5,000 years ago in Mathura, located in Northern India, 91 miles south of New Delhi.Aug 22, 2011
The Birth of Krishna: When God Came To Earth - HuffPost

The date of birth of Jesus of Nazareth is not stated in the gospels or in any secular text, but most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC.
Chronology of Jesus
Wikipedia · https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki ›

Muhammad is traditionally said to have been born in 570 in Mecca and to have died in 632 in Medina, where he had been forced to emigrate to with his adherents in 622.Jan 1, 2023
Muhammad | Biography, History, & Facts | Britannica

Baháʼu'lláh was born in Tehran, Iran on 12 November 1817.
Wikipedia · https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Baháʼu'lláh

 

[CG Didymus]

Correct.



That's right.



True.



You are aware that reincarnation is viewed differently in Buddhism and Hinduism?

For Baha'is, the contradictions between Hinduism and to a lesser extent Buddhism are relatively easy to resolve. There are no scriptures that can be reliably and credibly attributed to Krishna or Buddha. If Hindus and Buddhists wish to believe there is, that's fine. However if the same standards of reliability used for the Gospels and the Quran are applied to Hindu scriptures, there simply no evidence for Krishna and the evidence is weak at best for Buddhism IMHO. Most Western scholars would agree.

I don't necessarily believe reincarnation is true. I wouldn't mind it if it were true. But the question is... was it taught by Krishna.

If the Scriptures are unreliable, then Baha'is shouldn't call Hinduism true. And they shouldn't say Krishna is a manifestation. The Baha'is put themselves in a place where they need to have those other religions be true and from God, while, at the same time, the teachings and belief in those other religion to be false.

Sure, people probably could have changed the "original" teachings. And people could have also made up the whole religion and everything about Krishna... Especially if we go beyond Krishna and include the stories about the other avatars/incarnations that came before him. But... is what the Baha'i Faith says about Krishna and Buddha true? For Baha'is of course. But, as usual, how can Baha'is prove any of their beliefs? They can't. So, we discuss and debate them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahaullah has not had much impact compared to Krishna, Jesus or Muhammad (pbuh)

That actually is an important point. What was the impact of the return of Christ supposed to have? I'm sure something great in Islam, but even in Christianity the world facing trials and tribulations, and then comes Jesus and destroys the evil rulers and fixes things. If that is not how it was supposed to go down, then why didn't God say so? The prophecies and the book of Revelation become meaningless.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the Baha'i claim is that it wasn't taught by Krishna. So then, where did those Scriptures come from? If you want to say that Hindu spiritual leaders made them up, fine. But then Baha'is should come out and clearly say that they don't believe the Scriptures of the other religions, and don't believe what those other religions teach. And, as far as I can tell, Baha'is don't...

I will clearly say that Baha'is do not believe 'everything' that the older religions teach, not even 'everything' that is contained in their so-called scriptures that were written by fallible men who passed down what they heard through oral tradition long after the Krishna, Buddha, or Christ walked the earth.

Moreover, Baha'u'llah says the older religions have been corrupted by man, as you know, since I have quoted Him so many times.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't necessarily believe reincarnation is true. I wouldn't mind it if it were true. But the question is... was it taught by Krishna.

We can't possibly know as there are no writings that can be reliably attributed to Krishna.

If the Scriptures are unreliable, then Baha'is shouldn't call Hinduism true.

For the record, the Baha'i writings have very little to say about Hinduism and Krishna. They refer to Hinduism as a religion of Divine origins. That in no way implies all that what Hindus have to say about their religion is true or reliable.

And they shouldn't say Krishna is a manifestation.

Why not? Krishna is thought to have lived nearly five thousand years ago. There is no objective evidence that He existed as a person let alone writings that reflect word for word what He taught. So the Baha'i view that Krishna is a Manifestation of God is a belief. It is not something that can be proven or established, anymore than the Hindu belief that Krishna was an Avatar of Vishnu can be proven. We are all entitled to our beliefs.

The Baha'is put themselves in a place where they need to have those other religions be true and from God, while, at the same time, the teachings and belief in those other religion to be false.

Sure.

Sure, people probably could have changed the "original" teachings. And people could have also made up the whole religion and everything about Krishna... Especially if we go beyond Krishna and include the stories about the other avatars/incarnations that came before him. But... is what the Baha'i Faith says about Krishna and Buddha true? For Baha'is of course. But, as usual, how can Baha'is prove any of their beliefs? They can't. So, we discuss and debate them.

We can't prove the Baha'i beliefs about Krishna and Buddha to be true anymore that we can prove Hindu and Buddhist beliefs to be true. Trying to debate it either way, is likely to be an exercise in frustration and futility. Let Hindus and Buddhists have their beliefs about Krishna and Buddha as Baha'is have their beliefs about Krishna and Buddha. Their is little if any objective evidence to support either position.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But the Baha'i claim is that it wasn't taught by Krishna. So then, where did those Scriptures come from? If you want to say that Hindu spiritual leaders made them up, fine. But then Baha'is should come out and clearly say that they don't believe the Scriptures of the other religions, and don't believe what those other religions teach. And, as far as I can tell, Baha'is don't... unless it is to quote something that they can use to "prove" that their religion, the Baha'i Faith, is true.

I can see why the way Baha'is are doing it, is upsetting people in the other religions. But... do Baha'is care? What do Baha'is do when they meet a Hindu or Buddhist. Like let's say you meet the Dalai Lama... And he tells you about being reincarnated. What do you tell him? That he is wrong? And doesn't know what he talking about? If you think you aren't doing just that, then think again. That is exactly what you are telling them. And if that is what you believe, then say it. Don't mess around and say that all religions are one... originally. But that now the religion is all messed up and nowhere near being true.

Sounds like a quandary you face CG.

Baha'u'llah has given guidance on all those questions, I see the wisdom in that guidance, albeit I may not yet apply that wisdom to my life and interactions with others. But that is the challenge we all face.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

And name a few... What are those "conflicting" interpretations made by the followers? The contradictions I bring up are the actual words in the Scriptures. Like the Bible says Isaac. Baha'u'llah says Ishmael. The NT says Jesus was alive. The Baha'i Faith says he died and stayed dead. The Bible says the Noah was more than 900 years old when he died. Baha'u'llah says that Noah, "For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace." But Baha'is don't believe that Noah was really that old. Baha'is make Adam a manifestation. The Bible makes him the reason why God cursed humans and the Earth.

Which ones were you thinking of?

The saving of life said theism was 1000 years. Saviour terms.

For biology living inside heavens laws to a future 100 biology years our own survival.

So a man knowing life was being biological removed of existing. Said Noah 900.

Proven flooding in heavens laws broken increases by law burning gas heavens above body sacrificing removing. Why floods now are non stop as we are losing Jesus clouds lifee to bio saving after attacked.

Men warned don't believe like Muslims had before you. Old Egyptian their father lands memories. Copied today by new science.

Flooding saves bio life a teaching not a theism. Why theists trying to make it a theory lied. Science says it's not a theory about practices...machines.

Stated theists using beast lives in past theoried like they are now creationists..putting beasts before us in future scenarios not behind us as satanisms...most live for only a short bio living history's. Has theoried against human survival.

Why you say get behind me Satan. Yet Satanists scientists by machine theirs want it ahead as reactive heavens mass.

Our life is span future 100 years survival in saviour conditions 1000 years not flooding.

Jesus wasn't the flood.

Although dinosaur beasts were giant. Their cellular functions equalled the blood cells of lizards now.

We aren't lizard people. Yet Satanists alienists theisms depicted we were. No different today in theoried about lizard life blood reptilians to scientist theories now.

The same type of evil theist just humans told those alien themes in the past just as they do today.....

Why Jesus review said humans in heavens own red celled blood. Ironstone mineral bases. Nothing beyond that bio cell support.

As minerals are already with water there is no dust theory.

And as minerals are self mass historic formed with God. Teaching said we don't own any history as biology ...why a mineral as a dust exists. It's gods only history the planet.

Mineral ended with God.

Theists think of putting sun metals into biology then heavens converting it to a biological mineral. As a false theism why a human exists.

As from dusts is a theory eradicated first human everyone as two of humans skeletal dusts now is instant bio combustion.

As man with machine by heavens theist machine.

Water evaporation took up minerals within its body.

Holy water is biologies God not sun dust metals.

Is the teaching men of science life's destroyer reality.

Why nuclear mass is man's invention.

Nuclear containment bombs.

Man dropped those bombs as small mass one nation copied earths ancient Egyptian history.

Yet Mayan used technology were all destroyed. Indian veda used technology all destroyed.

Was never just in one place.

Man atop mountains saved by cloud mass veiling. Taught humans who entered gods earth ark rock tunnels. About the evil event. Why Jesus was similar advice to Buddhists terms.

Who survived. Was Buddhists history the wandering teachers.

Who taught men about healing temples they were already using in mountains after Moses history.

 

[soulsurvivor]

That is because the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled them together.

Regards Tony

Where they ever together in the same place praying as the hadith says?

 

[soulsurvivor]

That is an unfair comparison.

How long ago did Krishna live? Jesus? Muhammad?
Now compare that with Baha'u'llah and come back in 1200 years or so and ask what class Baha'u'llah is in.

Krishan has almost a billion believers. Muhammad has more than a billion. Jesus has more than two billion. Bahaullah - 8 million?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Krishan has almost a billion believers. Muhammad has more than a billion. Jesus has more than two billion. Bahaullah - 8 million?

It has been about 130 years since Baha'u'llah passed away. How many believers did Krishna, Jesus and Muhammad have after 130 years?

 

[soulsurvivor]

It has been about 130 years since Baha'u'llah passed away. How many believers did Krishna, Jesus and Muhammad have after 130 years?

In the time of Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad we did not have instant globalized communication, no satellite television or internet social media. If you are not known world-wide in such circumstances of viral communications, you never will be.

When the real Mahdi/Christ Returns, he will be well-known around the world in less than a year if not a month.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where they ever together in the same place praying as the hadith says?

It all requires Interpretation of ancient vision.

Examples, my thoughts, not official.

A hadith attributed to Abu Hurairah reports:
Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 658

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Hurairah that I heard the Prophet said: "What will be your condition when the son of Mary will come down to you and your Imam will be from amongst you"

Allamah Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi quotes the above tradition in his book "Muhammad (S) is the Last Prophet" and concludes:

This refers to the fact that prophet Jesus (a.s.) will not lead in the prayer, but the Imam of the Muslims who will leading them will lead in the prayers, and prophet Jesus will follow him.

This is clearly fulfilled by the Bab. The Bab used to sit in on the Lessons of Siyyid Káẓim. Siyyid Káẓim was a student of Shaykh Ahmad who was preaching the coming of the promised one.

The fact that both many Sunni and Shia Muslims hold that Isa (Jesus) and the Mahdi will be present at the same time was obviously fulfilled with both the Bab and Baha'u'llah being alive at the same time.

Which really fulfilled this also

hadith attributed to Al-Husayn Al-Ajiri reports:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (S) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.

The Metephor in that Hadith is seen in many events that have transpired. What I see is that these Hadith unfold over a larger time span.

It is Amazing that Baha'u'llah and the remains of the Bab ended up in Israel.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the time of Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad we did not have instant globalized communication, no satellite television or internet social media. If you are not known world-wide in such circumstances of viral communications, you never will be.

When the real Mahdi/Christ Returns, he will be well-known around the world in less than a year if not a month.

Modern technology may be more of a hindrance than a benefit to our spiritual capacity and well-being.

Maybe we can find such a warnings in the Bible and Hadith

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Krishan has almost a billion believers. Muhammad has more than a billion. Jesus has more than two billion. Bahaullah - 8 million?

Of course they have a lot of followers, those religions have been around for very a long time.

Krishna -- 4000 years
Christianity -- 2000 years
Islam -- 1400 years
Baha'i -- 160 years

Do you understand that religions grow larger over time? Not only do the original followers garner more followers over time, but religious beliefs are also are passed down through the generations.

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century...
There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

There were 5 million Baha'is at the end of the first century.

Paul Oliver wrote in World Faiths (2001) that there were "approximately five million Baháʼís" in 1963.[65]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai_Faith_by_country

 

[F1fan]

It has been about 130 years since Baha'u'llah passed away. How many believers did Krishna, Jesus and Muhammad have after 130 years?

That's a good point, God using Messengers is too slow. And it hasn't been working. Wouldn't a God know better than to keep using a flawed method? That's a good reason for doubt.

Let's not forget Christians exterminated 6 million Jews. Muslims have done many terrorist acts. At one time Christians and Muslims fought each other. Why can't God get this right and send a comprehensible message? Are Baha'i doing any better? It seems ahuge red flag that they are bigoted against gays. That idea is not a crowd pleaser, and what does it have to do with global peace?

 

[Truthseeker]

As I just pointed out in another post and will repeat here, that argument to dismiss these teachings as valid because they were words written down many years later, can be directly applied to Jesus's teachings. Jesus never wrote anything himself, and all of the gospels stories about it, are part of oral traditions and the various views of different sects of early Christianity. Let's add to this that we also do not have anything that Moses himself wrote either!

Yes, that is quite true. However that does was written in those texts entrirely invalid. Indeed the Bhagavad Gits is not entriely invalid either. Though I dont know what words were said by Krishna, I find a lot of truth in the Bhagavad Gita. All the words don't have to be what the revelator said for there to be validity in them.

Now let's apply that same scalpel to the Quran itself. Did Muhammad actually write what you have have today? Was there only one Quran that was faithfully copied and - without deviation, or different scribes injecting their own interpretations or ideas? That's not what history teaches. The fact is what you have today is what was chosen 150 years after Muhammad should be the only correct version, and all other deviating versions were thrown into a pile and burned up.

I do recognize that the words of Muhammad were not written down by him, as He was illiterate. However, at least some were written down by others, and many memorized what He said. If some words differed in different versions, becase there were slight rememberances. It was not passed down through different generations, as it was not 150 years until it was written down.

Quran - Wikipedia

Following Muhammad's death in 632, a number of his companions who knew the Quran by heart were killed in the Battle of Yamama by Musaylimah. The first caliph, Abu Bakr (d. 634), subsequently decided to collect the book in one volume so that it could be preserved. Zayd ibn Thabit (d. 655) was the person to collect the Quran since "he used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle". Thus, a group of scribes, most importantly Zayd, collected the verses and produced a hand-written manuscript of the complete book. The manuscript according to Zayd remained with Abu Bakr until he died. Zayd's reaction to the task and the difficulties in collecting the Quranic material from parchments, palm-leaf stalks, thin stones (collectively known as suhuf)[48][ambiguous] and from men who knew it by heart is recorded in earlier narratives. In 644, Muhammad's widow Hafsa bint Umar was entrusted with the manuscript until the third caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, requested the standard copy from her.[49]

In about 650, Uthman (d. 656) began noticing slight differences in pronunciation of the Quran as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian Peninsula into Persia, the Levant, and North Africa. In order to preserve the sanctity of the text, he ordered a committee headed by Zayd to use Abu Bakr's copy and prepare a standard text of the Quran.[50][51] Thus, within 20 years of Muhammad's death, the Quran was committed to written form.[anachronism] That text became the model from which copies were made and promulgated throughout the urban centers of the Muslim world, and other versions are believed to have been destroyed.[50][52][53][54] The present form of the Quran text is accepted by Muslim scholars to be the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.[39][40][viii]

According to Shia, Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 661) compiled a complete version of the Quran shortly after Muhammad's death. The order of this text differed from that gathered later during Uthman's era in that this version had been collected in chronological order. Despite this, he made no objection against the standardized Quran and accepted the Quran in circulation. Other personal copies of the Quran might have existed including Ibn Mas'ud's and Ubay ibn Ka'b's codex, none of which exist today.[11][50][56]

The Quran most likely existed in scattered written form during Muhammad's lifetime. Several sources indicate that during Muhammad's lifetime a large number of his companions had memorized the revelations. Early commentaries and Islamic historical sources support the above-mentioned understanding of the Quran's early development.[24] University of Chicago professor Fred Donner states that:[57]

[T]here was a very early attempt to establish a uniform consonantal text of the Qurʾān from what was probably a wider and more varied group of related texts in early transmission.… After the creation of this standardized canonical text, earlier authoritative texts were suppressed, and all extant manuscripts—despite their numerous variants—seem to date to a time after this standard consonantal text was established.

Although most variant readings of the text of the Quran have ceased to be transmitted, some still are.[58][59] There has been no critical text produced on which a scholarly reconstruction of the Quranic text could be based.[ix] Historically, controversy over the Quran's content has rarely become an issue, although debates continue on the subject.

i wish I had never said that about the accuracy of the Qur'an, as that is relatively unimportant. That fact is that though the earlier revelations were less accurate, though still conveyed truth. This led to you going on a tirade on this subject.

So this whole business of "correcting early revelations", or being the authoritative voice for the age, is frankly just the smoke and mirrors and slights of hand of religious apologetics, trying to make contradictions of ideas and errors fit into some harmonounius single revelation, that happens to reflect the views of whatever group it is trying to sell their various religious product

Many people here, including you have a false idea of what we are doing here. You can think however you want to think, you can think for yourself, we are not trying to think for you. We have the right to say what we believe, like anybody else. We have the right to believe what we believe, and you have the right ot believe what you believe. I will not be silenced by you.