I wouldn't say 'proven,' myself, but you FINALLY supported them. Thank you. Now why did it take you so long and why did you have to lay on so many insults before you did so?
. . . because you claimed to have read and knew the Catechism.
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I wouldn't say 'proven,' myself, but you FINALLY supported them. Thank you. Now why did it take you so long and why did you have to lay on so many insults before you did so?
I believe it is entirely possible that I myself embrace as many errors and falsehoods as you...in the eyes of Christian Theology, yes, your rejection of Christ is wrong...it was people of Christian theology that I was trying to reach with this thread...So, I was trying to create the possibility of salvation for Atheists like Buddha, who follow their conscience and the golden rule, so that Christians would stop condemning people to Hell.
Yet, I'm not saying an atheist has a more screwd up rule of life they live by than I do. There are atheists who possess more courage, charity, meekness, humility, hope, optimism, peace, and the virtues I cherish, than I do, therefore, I can't fault someone who outdoes me in virtue. There is no black and white answer.
. . . because you claimed to have read and knew the Catechism.
Asking a Dutch Baha'i who gives his opinion, "Yes all religions lead to God................................but they have to accept Baha'i to get to the final destination," does not represent the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.
We need to discuss this using Baha'i references to understand this issue in better perspective.
"To understand this issue in better perspective" sounds strange to me. But maybe you mean the same as I summarize below.
I am very simple in word and thought. No misunderstanding or perspective:
Resumee: X is the right way for X followers and only for X followers; so NOT for not-X followers
X = Bahai, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Humanism, FillInAnyOneYouLike, .........
e.g.: Bahai is the right way for Bahai followers and only for Bahai followers; so NOT for not-Bahai followers
To be fair, Pope's sentiment is similarly expressed by the actual pope (the one the Vatican loves to backtrack whenever he starts to sound moral) but is counter to what's on paper.Asking a Dutch Baha'i who gives his opinion, "Yes all religions lead to God................................but they have to accept Baha'i to get to the final destination," does not represent the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.
Pretty much. That you're given a last chance to repent and accept Christ after you die, when St. Michael the Archangel comes for your soul, is a belief I've heard before in Catholicism. There's a diversity of beliefs in that religion.To be fair, Pope's sentiment is similarly expressed by the actual pope (the one the Vatican loves to backtrack whenever he starts to sound moral) but is counter to what's on paper.
To be fair, Pope's sentiment is similarly expressed by the actual pope (the one the Vatican loves to backtrack whenever he starts to sound moral) but is counter to what's on paper.
Pretty much. That you're given a last chance to repent and accept Christ after you die, when St. Michael the Archangel comes for your soul, is a belief I've heard before in Catholicism. There's a diversity of beliefs in that religion.
Yet the church teaches that people like Buddha and Ann Frank could be in heaven... end of story!Possibly a diversity of belief by individuals in any church, but this belief (apokatastasis) is heretical to the Roman Church.
Still over simplification, An exercise in X's and Y's does not describe the Baha'i belief, and does not reflect the Baha'i writings.
The Baha'i Faith does not propose the equivalent belief as in traditional Christianity and Islam that Salvation is exclusively limited to the faithful.
To describe the Baha'i view simply is that our spiritual journey is through many worlds, and salvation is this journey, and also the salvation of humanity in this world now through the spiritual teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Yes, belief in the Baha'i Faith is no less important in ones life, because the Baha'is make the decision to be Baha'is and followers of the light with a greater knowledge and volition of their own free will in this world and their life to bring a greater sense of unity and peace to the world.
On the other hand traditional Christianity and Islam Salvation is limited to faithful and sincere believers, unbelievers with no knowledge, and children below the age of consent in this world only up until the moment of death.
This one you explained very clear. The limitations in Christianity and IslamOn the other hand traditional Christianity and Islam Salvation is limited to faithful and sincere believers, unbelievers with no knowledge, and children below the age of consent in this world only up until the moment of death.
This one is less clear. According to Bahai, just 3 simple questions [Y/N questions]:To describe the Baha'i view simply is that our spiritual journey is through many worlds, and salvation is this journey, and also the salvation of humanity in this world now through the spiritual teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Yes, belief in the Baha'i Faith is no less important in ones life, because the Baha'is make the decision to be Baha'is and followers of the light with a greater knowledge and volition of their own free will in this world and their life to bring a greater sense of unity and peace to the world.
Yet the church teaches that people like Buddha and Ann Frank could be in heaven... end of story!
The Catechism says, effectively, that God can save whoever he wants and that they don’t try to limit who God wants to save.Could be, possibly???
In my view, Baha'i Faith, Buddha is in Heaven(?) with all manifestations of God, and An Frank's journey through many worlds is up to here relationship with God and not what I think 'could or not could be.'
Your not yet addressing the specific doctrine of the church.
“God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”
This one you explained very clear. The limitations in Christianity and Islam
This one is less clear. According to Bahai, just 3 simple questions [Y/N questions]:
1): Can an atheist [following good values like Buddha teached (taught) us] reach the ultimate goal in life with his own belief system.
2): Can I reach the utlimate goal in life if I follow the teachings of Sai Baba [He claims I will] according to you or to Baha'i
3): You accept teachings of Bahaullah, do you also accept the teachings of Sai Baba [shirdi or sathya]?
You believe Baha'i teacher/teachings are brought to the world because there was a decline in truth in the teachings.
Sai Baba has stated "This poorna avatar came to earth to restore the scriptures, because mistakes entered after all these years."
I don't say in Bahai are mistakes, there can be of course mis-interpretations like the dutch bahai made.
Sai Baba didn't come to create a new religion; he adviced to pick anyone you like [incl. atheism] and I help you to become better at the one of your chosing
The Catechism says, effectively, that God can save whoever he wants and that they don’t try to limit who God wants to save.
From Section 1257 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of Baptism
Have you actually read what the Catechism has to say about the plan of salvation? They’re very careful to never say that the “standard” path to salvation is the only way to be saved; instead, they present it more as the only way that they know of and as something that was instituted by Christ (and therefore something that ought to be taken seriously).
The Catholic Church has always left the door open to God saving whomever he chooses, so I don’t see why @PopeADope ’s offensive idea of conversion after death would have been necessary. The Catechism says that God isn’t bound by the sacraments, so God can disregard the sacraments whenever he chooses.
Which of your references implied that God has to be beholden to Catholic doctrine?I have read the and lived by the Catechism growing up in the Roman Church, and studied to be a priest. It is universal that God may do what God wants to is a given like the sky is Carolina blue on a clear day at noon, BUT read the Catechism and my references, which you apparently choose to ignore.
So you think it's the Catholic position that the Church knows God's full current opinion on the issue of salvation?According to the teachings of the Roman Church God has not presently changed God's mind as it is more than obvious that God can.
I once went to a used car lot at a Honda dealership looking for a Subaru Impreza. I asked the salesman whether he had any; he said that he didn't, but then tried to convince me that the all-wheel drive Civic Crosstour that he had in stock was way better anyhow.As far as I believe, which is the Baha'i Faith, I believe the potential of Universal Salvation exists in the journey through many worlds after death, which is similar to what @PopeADope believes, but unfortunately it is heretical as far as the Roman Church is concerned and God has not told the Roman Church, which according to the claim of the Roman Church, God would tell the Roman Church if God changed God's mind.
Which of your references implied that God has to be beholden to Catholic doctrine?
So you think it's the Catholic position that the Church knows God's full current opinion on the issue of salvation?
I once went to a used car lot at a Honda dealership looking for a Subaru Impreza. I asked the salesman whether he had any; he said that he didn't, but then tried to convince me that the all-wheel drive Civic Crosstour that he had in stock was way better anyhow.
I get the same vibe from your posts that I got from that other salesman.