Tumah
Veteran Member
Under the proper circumstances, ritual immersion is the only way to be converted to Judaism.
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Converting to Judaism
- Thread starter Leo613
- Start date
Uniquename
New Member
But is it a initiation rite or not? I am struggling with defining its meaning.
Tumah
Veteran Member
How are you defining initiation rite?
Uniquename
New Member
Tumah
Veteran Member
If you think rites create a change in the initiate, then yes, it is an initiation rite.
If you think rites acknowledge a change that had occurred, then no it is not.
Uniquename
New Member
So, it does create a change? What confuses me is how it differs from other immersions in mikveh that were or still are practiced by other Jews? Is something special about this first immersion? Can we say that ritual immersion has two meanings, ritual cleaning and initiation? Or not?
Tumah
Veteran Member
My understanding is that they're both creating a rebirth. The question is on what you're emphasizing:
A pure NEW baby (conversion)
or
A PURE new baby (regular immersion)
rosends
Well-Known Member
Immersion in all cases marks a status change from (one wording) "impure" to "pure." The source of the impurity might be different but in neither case is it simply "cleaning".
Related interesting point: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/qu...to-judaism-go-to-the-mikvah-during-her-period
Related interesting point: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/qu...to-judaism-go-to-the-mikvah-during-her-period
Uniquename
New Member
If the status change for both Jew and a convert is the same, then what is the difference? What marks immerson of a convert an initiation rite? It is something that can be done many times, am I right? Or there is something I do not understand properly...
I am acctualy having a debate whether or not is a ritual immersion in mikveh an initiation ritual.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The status from impure to pure in the most general sense is the same but the specifics are different. Anything which marks a change in status could be called an initiation ritual. When a person who was impure because he came in contact with something impure immerses, he is allowed to reenter the camp of Israel. The act is therefore an initiation into the pure camp if Israel. The convert is being brought in to the camp as well.
The problem is in the imprecise concept of "initiation ritual." In a sense, most any "first" act can be imbued with the kind of social acceptance passage-label that would allow it, in some sense to be called an intiiation ritual. The first immersion after any period of impurity is no exception.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
As one of its functions, yes. As a Reform Jew, we require it with my synagogue, but RabiO maybe can tell us if this is true with most in Reform.
dantech
Well-Known Member
Just like for any Jew, I believe Immersion's only purpose is to purify you of any impurities (contact with the dead, impurities of idolatry for having entered a Church for example, and so on and so on...).
When one converts, he becomes a new person, and a new person should be pure.
When one converts, he becomes a new person, and a new person should be pure.
rosends
Well-Known Member
In truth, not really. The kabbalah is an extension of Jewish learning that comes after intense study of text and law and is connected to fervent practice. It can't stand on its own, nor can one practice kabbalah as some sort of separate thing.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Whether a Jew follows Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism or various other religions he stays a Jew. But that doesn't mean he's not an Apostate.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Frankly, I have problems with the word "apostate", especially in regards to that which may be used to classify another as being an "apostate" is highly subjective. For example, in this area, what's the difference between an "apostate" and a "free thinker" or a "questioner" or one who says "I don't know" a lot 
?
?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, I agree. What influenced my comment above is that I usually hear or read that term as being a slam against the person that's left.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The issue has to do with the view of that person by a set of religious laws. If the law says "born a Jew, always a Jew" then the rejection of Judaic law and primacy doesn't change "always a Jew" but places the individual in a legal category, even if the person rejects the validity of the categories. I sometimes differentiate by saying "a Jew who converted to _________ is still a Jew in the eyes of Judaism and bound to its laws and punishments, but is not communally accepted as a Jew so he is unable to participate in the Jewish identity as part of the system."
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I can buy this. Nicely said, imo.