Convince me that God is loving

[Sgt. Pepper]

I will surely be on my guard. It is awkward at best for a Baha'i to socialize with Christians but I will give it a chance, since I need fellowship, and the Baha'is don't have any groups like this. Luckily, I have had a lot of experience talking to Christians on forums so I know what not to say. It is always best to focus on what we believe in common rather than the differences.

Maybe finding a secular fellowship meeting similar to the Christian one would be better for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe finding a secular fellowship meeting similar to the Christian one would be better for you.

It probably would be, but there are no such groups here locally. I am attending a bereavement group run my counselors but that is a different kind of group, it is not for socializing.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It probably would be, but there are no such groups here locally. I am attending a bereavement group run my counselors but that is a different kind of group, it is not for socializing.

That's unfortunate. Let me know how the meeting goes. I'm curious to find out if any (or how many) attempt to convert you.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I don't believe that heaven is what some Christians believe it is, floating around on clouds worshiping God for all of eternity. I cannot imagine anything more boring than that. Once, a long time ago in an office conversation my Christian coworker said she will be so happy in heaven, when she doesn't have to work anymore. What does she think she will be doing for all of eternity, sitting around on a cloud?

Spending an eternity metaphorically kissing God's backside and stroking his ego by repeatedly praising him is very unappealing to me.

I believe that when you enter the spiritual world you will have the opportunity to continue the work you are doing here, helping out help out other human spirits who are afraid and confused. The book entitled Private Dowding by Wellesley Tudor Pole describes that work.

After I enter the spirit world, I'd like to evolve into a spirit guide so that I can help other human spirits as well as psychic mediums in the physical world. I truly appreciate the assistance and guidance of my caring spirit guides, who come to me whenever I need help.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's unfortunate. Let me know how the meeting goes. I'm curious to find out if any (or how many) attempt to convert you.

I will surely report back.
They cannot convert me to believe in Jesus since I already believe in Jesus, although not the same way they do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Spending an eternity metaphorically kissing God's backside and stroking his ego by repeatedly praising him is very unappealing to me.

The irony is that God does not even need our worship or praise since God has no needs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another thing, I find this idea to be attractive because one of my questions, and it's a big one, about an afterlife is "what will we do there"? A continuation of the struggles of this life, with learning and development, and the chance to help people seems a lot better than an eternity of playing harps or whatever. I prefer to think that the damaged people are cared for and healed, rather than punished for what they did on Earth.

I do not believe that the afterlife will be a continuation of the struggles that we have in this life, since it won't be physical, and all our struggles are related to the physical world.

“A friend asked: “How should one look forward to death?”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

I believe that we will continue to learn and develop, but differently than we did in this life. I also believe we will have an opportunity to help other souls who need help. It would indeed be very boring if all we did for eternity was sit around on a cloud playing harps or whatever.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I do not believe that the afterlife will be a continuation of the struggles that we have in this life, since it won't be physical, and all our struggles are related to the physical world.

Perhaps not in the spirit realm. I can't say with absolute certainty, but I know that there are earthbound spirits who still struggle with the emotions that they had while they were still alive. Some feel sadness, regret, and even a lot of fear, while others feel deeply angry because they think they were misled into believing specific scriptures about what was supposed to happen to them after they died. They feel betrayed, and that deeply upsets them, so much so that they refuse to cross over. Other spirits are very confused and don't know what to do, and they aimlessly wander, like the spirit of the young girl that I mentioned earlier in the thread. She was a lost soul.

I believe that we will continue to learn and develop, but differently than we did in this life. I also believe we will have an opportunity to help other souls who need help. It would indeed be very boring if all we did for eternity was sit around on a cloud playing harps or whatever.

I have personal beliefs about what is happening in the spirit world based on my knowledge as a psychic medium and spiritualist, but neither my spirit guides nor the earthbound spirits I've spoken with have been very forthcoming with precise information about what is happening in the spirit realm. As I shared before, there have been earthbound spirits who have asked me why they aren't in heaven yet or where God or Jesus are, but I haven't received precise answers as to whether God is real or if there are other deities in the spirit world as well. The spirits I've asked either refuse to answer my questions or quickly change the subject. My spirit guides, on the other hand, have been genuinely honest with me and have told me that I will need to wait and see for myself. I have, however, been able to learn from what I've been told over the years by my spirit guides that human spirits are able to evolve and grow in knowledge in the spirit world, which is why I said that I'd like to evolve into one after I enter the spirit world. It is consistent with my spiritualist beliefs.

 

[Alien826]

I do not believe that the afterlife will be a continuation of the struggles that we have in this life, since it won't be physical, and all our struggles are related to the physical world.

[....]

I believe that we will continue to learn and develop, but differently than we did in this life. I also believe we will have an opportunity to help other souls who need help. It would indeed be very boring if all we did for eternity was sit around on a cloud playing harps or whatever.

I assume physical problems like illness would be left behind with our bodies, and we would not be subject to physical harm from others. Unfortunately, that's not the only kind of problem that we have. Would a serial killer be suddenly cured of the urge to kill because he couldn't physically kill?

Perhaps @Sgt. Pepper can tell us how such people are treated?

It's all supposition on my part of course, but I would so like it to be true! It's so much nicer in my opinion than one life, then judgement, then heaven or hell. It's not a level playing field on Earth!

 

[Trailblazer]

Oooh, circular reasoning. God knows everything because he knows everything. How would God know that he knows everything? All he could know is that everything he is aware of he understands, or similar. How could he determine that he is not embedded in a higher set of dimensions that he is not aware of, just as we are. Maybe there's a progression of gods, each nested within the next, like Russian dolls?

Maybe, maybe, maybe.... We either believe that God is all-knowing or not, but if God is all-knowing God knows everything, period.

God has given us rules to live by, and supposedly judges us based on them. Why is it so wrong to point out that God breaks his own rules? That may not be true, or there may be a reasonable explanation, but why is it wrong for us to judge?

God is not subject to any rules since God is the Ruler and Maintainer of the Universe.. God makes those rules for humans to obey so we can live in peace and harmony with each other.

Aside from that, God does not have behavior so God cannot 'break' any rules. God wills things to happen and they happen according to His will.

We can judge God is we want to, I have done it myself. It won't hurt God, although it might be detrimental to us.

What you are saying is that God is not like us so we should not expect him to behave like us. I agree, but if that applies to ethics too, then where is your objective morality? "Don't do what I do, do as I say"? For example, you seem to be saying that God created the world and he is fine with the way it is, so he doesn't want to change it. Huh? That goes directly against any definition of love or benevolence that humans understand, and supposedly those definitions are given to us by God. It's one thing to say that God gives us rules for our lives and behaves as he will in his realm, but the suffering on Earth and the rules that apply to us both apply here and now.

Objective morality comes from God to man. As I just said above, God does not 'do' anything. God wills things to happen and they happen as He wills.

God created the world, and maybe God was happy with the way it was in the beginning, if you believe the Bible accounts in genesis. However, that does not mean that God is happy with the way the world is now. God wants it to change, and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah with instructions we are to follow on how to change the world. Sending those instructions demonstrates love and benevolence towards humans.

Addicts always (OK pretty much) need help to recover. Our door is always open.

I'll remember that.

 

[Alien826]

Surely, not all Christians are cut from the same cloth so to speak. Thankfully, I have only encountered two Christians on this forum who behave in a manner unbecoming of a Christian, and I think you know who they are. Calling them out, no matter how you do it, is a favor to them because at least it gives them a chance to examine their own behavior.

I'm afraid there are people that just have to feel superior to others. And what better way than to claim that they have the only true knowledge of God? Christianity does give people that opportunity, though thankfully most resist it. But then there are those that think they are the only true Christians. Now that's hubris raised to the Nth power.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps not in the spirit realm. I can't say with absolute certainty, but I know that there are earthbound spirits who still struggle with the emotions that they had while they were still alive. Some feel sadness, regret, and even a lot of fear, while others feel deeply angry because they think they were misled into believing specific scriptures about what was supposed to happen to them after they died.

When I said we won't have the same struggles we had in the physical world, I meant we won't have to work for a living or have to deal with accidents and injuries or diseases of the physical body. I did not mean we won't have any emotions. Since the soul is responsible for consciousness and thought, I think that not only earthbound spirits, but also spirits who have crossed over to the spiritual world, will have thoughts that lead to sadness, regret, fear, and anger.

 

[Alien826]

God is not subject to any rules since God is the Ruler and Maintainer of the Universe.. God makes those rules for humans to obey so we can live in peace and harmony with each other.

Aside from that, God does not have behavior so God cannot 'break' any rules. God wills things to happen and they happen according to His will.

We can judge God is we want to, I have done it myself. It won't hurt God, although it might be detrimental to us.

Objective morality comes from God to man. As I just said above, God does not 'do' anything. God wills things to happen and they happen as He wills.

I've thought a while about asking you this. If you don't want to answer I understand.

If God told you to build a large fire and put all your cats in it (alive), would you do it? For the sake of the mental experiment, assume that you have some reliable way to know that the instruction came from God. If you follow what you say above, you would do it because it's not immoral for God to ask that of you because he can't break any rules, and he's in charge. If you say no, then you are putting your morality above that of God.

No cheating by saying that God wouldn't do that. He just did. And why not, because he is not subject to human morality. And you can't ask him if there is some higher purpose, he'll just tell you not to question him.

What do you do?

(Anyone else that wants to answer, please do).

 

[Trailblazer]

I assume physical problems like illness would be left behind with our bodies, and we would not be subject to physical harm from others. Unfortunately, that's not the only kind of problem that we have. Would a serial killer be suddenly cured of the urge to kill because he couldn't physically kill?

Yes, physical problems like illness will be left behind with our bodies, and we will not be subject to physical harm from others. A serial killer will not be suddenly cured of the urge to kill because he cannot physically kill anyone. He will still have the urge to kill but not being able to fulfill his desire will be hell for him. There is nothing to do in hell except wish for things you can no longer have, but that is what keeps hell going! There will be many souls in hell to keep him company and since he never knew anything else, he won't know what he is missing out on in heaven.

Of course, this is difficult for you to envision since you are a good person, why anyone would want to be in hell if he had a choice to be in heaven.

It's all supposition on my part of course, but I would so like it to be true! It's so much nicer in my opinion than one life, then judgement, then heaven or hell. It's not a level playing field on Earth!

It's definitely not a level playing field on Earth but rumor has it that God will level the playing field in the next world.
Those who suffered through no fault of their own will be compensated by God for their suffering and God will mete out justice to those who got away with murder and other heinous crimes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've thought a while about asking you this. If you don't want to answer I understand.

If God told you to build a large fire and put all your cats in it (alive), would you do it? For the sake of the mental experiment, assume that you have some reliable way to know that the instruction came from God. If you follow what you say above, you would do it because it's not immoral for God to ask that of you because he can't break any rules, and he's in charge. If you say no, then you are putting your morality above that of God.

No cheating by saying that God wouldn't do that. He just did. And why not, because he is not subject to human morality. And you can't ask him if there is some higher purpose, he'll just tell you not to question him.

What do you do?

(Anyone else that wants to answer, please do).

I'd tell God to take a hike and meet you at the atheist kiosk.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb, you say that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God incarnate. you go on to say that you are "drop dead positive" about this.
Can you tell me how you explain the following…?
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

That verse is not about Jesus, it is about Baha'u'llah. Jesus was called the Son of God because He came in the station of the Son. Bahaullah was called the Mighty God since He came in the station of the Father.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace. World peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.

and
1 Timothy 1:15–17
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Verse 17 is a separate verse that refers to God, it does not refer to Jesus. Notice how it starts with the word "Now" which separates it from the two verses above.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

and
John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. And the Jews understood exactly what He was claiming—deity. “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33) So they tried to stone Him. They were as shocked/ incredulous as you are, Tb, by this claim, by Jesus, to be God.

Jesus was not saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence, even though the Jews thought that is what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying that He and the Father are of one in attributes and will.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh, which is what incarnation means. God cannot become flesh because God is spirit, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. No man has ever seen God (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) We know that the multitudes saw Jesus so that means Jesus cannot be God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh doing the will of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

and
John 8:58 “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”
This refers back to This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” Why would the Jews respond to this statement by Jesus by picking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy?
Answer: They heard Him say that He is God.

AGAIN, the Jews thought that is what Jesus meant in that verse, but that is not what Jesus meant.
That verse means that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before He was born of Mary into this world, and since the spiritual world existed long before Abraham was born into this world, the soul of Jesus existed before Abraham was born.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[nPeace]

which demonstrates that you completely missed the point.

What point?
The one you failed to see applies to you, and how?
No, that's what I found funny.

 

[nPeace]

@Trailblazer By the way, people egg you on, when you are leaning toward their side. Take a hint.

 

[Trailblazer]

What point?
The one you failed to see applies to you, and how?
No, that's what I found funny.

The point that you failed to see applies to you.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No cheating by saying that God wouldn't do that. He just did. And why not, because he is not subject to human morality. And you can't ask him if there is some higher purpose, he'll just tell you not to question him.

What do you do?

Baha'u'llah offered that if God set the duration of the fast at no limit, then a true believer would embrace that fast.

The rest would be up to us.

Regards Tony