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Convince me that God is loving

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.
I cannot convince you as your situation differs from mine. From your viewpoint you might not see God’s love. From my viewpoint I’m surrounded by it. There are physical manifestations of his love such as sustenance. Wheat, rice, vegetables and fruits with which we nourish ourselves. Then there is the ability to reflect, contemplate, meditate and discover leading us to be able to understand the universe. We can fall in love with another human being. Sciences and inventions. And above all He sends us an Educator from time to time to try and help us with our problems if we choose to listen. I have ’tried’ to listen and so has my dear wife so we have a beautiful life because the counsels of Baha’u’llah are given to us out of love for our benefit and we feel that love each moment, each day. We have beautiful Christian friends who, because of their love for God treat us as family. And then there is a wonderful Hindu lady who loves Krishna and drops in to chant bhajans. There is so much more.

But we are only visitors to this world. One day we will move on to another existence so no suffering here is permanent.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
That is only a faith-based belief, not a fact, that they will be 'compensated' by God for their suffering. Nobody really knows. It is even worse if they were not even able to even grow spiritually from their suffering :( so what was the point?
It's true that this is faith based, but I do have faith in the words of Baha'u'llah.

O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 328)

I don't know why a person is here if for material reasons he cannot grow spiritually. Maybe for those people adjacent to him or her? Another thought is that this is all a random draw of luck because of the material world, that is my scientific part saying that.
1: O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 3
I think it is more important to be kind to people than to love them. What is love anyway if not an action? I think love is overrated.
That says it right there. We must be kind. Of course we should also be kind for pure reasons.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am feeling my way to a response because I disagree. I do not think that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering. I think Scripture indicates the opposite. However, God also gave humanity the power to choose which is where suffering comes into play. That is, I wouldn't think that people willingly choose to suffer but I do believe that people choose to do things which causes both themselves and others to suffer. For witness, people who want to hold onto power will arrange things so that they can even at the expense of others. They do not care about the suffering that comes to others because of their choice. One person wants to win a war so they create situations where others will suffer and give in to their demands. Even when others give in, their suffering is not lessened because the victor continues to impose suffering because the losers must be punished for not giving in sooner. This also serves to foster the attitude "I'm better than you and deserve more."

If you are referring to suffering cause by cancer or other such diseases, many of those are also caused by choices. If a person eats a balanced diet giving them all the nutrients they need and exercises and does the other things that science shows are ways to ensure health, then the likelihood is that they are not going to suffer from diseases. However, some of those choices are caused by poverty and/or where you live such as if the quality of the water that is accessible to you is not good. That is also caused by people in power who are not willing to care (love) for everyone.

There have been stories (in Dauphine, Manitoba, Canada in 2014) of experiments of basic needs income which was tried for 5 years there (1974-1979). New mothers stayed home longer with their babies improving their care, teens stayed in school rather than supporting their families, and health problems decreased. However, by 1979, the government changed and the program shut down without issuing a report about whether the experiment worked or not. It was a case of returning to the norm of oppressing people rather than helping (loving) them. A researcher found the boxes of documentation in 2011 and wrote a paper on it. In 2014, Huffington Post Canada wrote a story about it also indicating that Switzerland, Scotland, Namibia, Uganda, and India were looking at the idea.

As the image of God, Who, we are told, is love, we have a responsibility to reflect that love toward everyone. Until that love can be channeled into caring (loving) others, there will still be suffering in the world. That is not the fault of God. That is a fault in humanity in not following the guidance of God in creating a better world for everyone.

But there is hope. All Scripture tells us that there will be world peace. Peace is not possible while some of the world is being oppressed. It is only possible when we love everyone and treat them as one family.
In reference to your response above, it makes sense to me that humans were created different from whatever their closest relatives are supposed to be. Like gorillas, chimpanzees, and of course the Unknown Common Ancestor. So the descent from the first man and woman was genetically not done in perfection, meaning with perfect genes and tendencies. Thus we inherit imperfection. Not to be forelorn, though, the Bible promises our imperfections for those who are blessed, will be removed and we shall be happy. You can look up that in part in Revelation 21:1-5 when you have time.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I am so sorry for your loss, nor would I blame you for grieving nor blame either of you for his death. Although Abdu'l-Baha says not to grieve in a tablet about Thomas Breakwell, he also spends most of the tablet lamenting his separation from Breakwell:

"Grieve thou not over the ascension of my beloved Breakwell, for he hath risen unto a rose garden of splendors within the Abhá Paradise, sheltered by the mercy of his mighty Lord, and he is crying at the top of his voice: “O that my people could know how graciously my Lord hath forgiven me, and made me to be of those who have attained His Presence!” (cf. Qur’án 36:25).

"O Breakwell, O my dear one! Where now is thy fair face? Where is thy fluent tongue? Where thy clear brow? Where thy bright comeliness?" (in Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, #158.)
Yes, even the Bab grieved for months:

THE news of the tragic fate which had befallen the heroes of Tabarsi brought immeasurable sorrow to the heart of the Bab. Confined it His prison-castle of Chihriq, severed from the little band of His struggling disciples, He watched with keen anxiety the progress of their labours and prayed with unremitting zeal for their victory. How great was His sorrow when, in the early days of Sha'ban in the year 1265 A.H.,[1] He came to learn of the trials that had beset their path, of the agony they had suffered, of the betrayal to which an exasperated enemy had felt compelled to resort, and of the abominable butchery with which their career had ended.
[1 June 22-July 21, 1849 A.D.]

"The Bab was heart-broken," His amanuensis, Siyyid Husayn-i-'Aziz, subsequently related, "at the receipt of this unexpected intelligence. He was crushed with grief, a grief that stilled His voice and silenced His pen. For nine days He refused to meet any of His friends. I myself, though His close and constant attendant, was refused admittance. Whatever meat or drink we offered Him, He was disinclined to touch. Tears rained continually from His eyes, and expressions of anguish dropped unceasingly from His lips. I could hear Him, from behind the curtain, give vent to His feelings of sadness as He communed, in the privacy of His cell, with His Beloved. I attempted to jot down the effusions of His sorrow as they poured forth from His wounded heart. Suspecting that I was attempting to preserve the lamentations He uttered, He bade me destroy whatever I had recorded. Nothing remains of the moans and cries with which that heavy-laden heart sought to relieve itself of the pangs that had seized it. For a period of five months He languished, immersed in an ocean of despondency and sorrow."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 430)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I cannot convince you as your situation differs from mine.
It sure does. You did not lose your wife of 37 years so there is no way you can understand what that feels like. However, I would not believe God is not loving simply based upon my personal situation because I am not that self-centered. I see the suffering of others as evidence that there is a problem.
From your viewpoint you might not see God’s love. From my viewpoint I’m surrounded by it. There are physical manifestations of his love such as sustenance. Wheat, rice, vegetables and fruits with which we nourish ourselves. Then there is the ability to reflect, contemplate, meditate and discover leading us to be able to understand the universe. We can fall in love with another human being. Sciences and inventions. And above all He sends us an Educator from time to time to try and help us with our problems if we choose to listen. I have ’tried’ to listen and so has my dear wife so we have a beautiful life because the counsels of Baha’u’llah are given to us out of love for our benefit and we feel that love each moment, each day. We have beautiful Christian friends who, because of their love for God treat us as family. And then there is a wonderful Hindu lady who loves Krishna and drops in to chant bhajans. There is so much more.
With all due respect, as my friend @Sgt. Pepper said, just like all believers you only see what you believe God is responsible for that is good, you never see anything bad. But that will not work logically, because if God is responsible for 'everything' He is responsible for both the good times and the bad times, as Isaiah says.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.


But of course you only see the good things since your life is good. My life has been a holy living hell for as long as I can remember, even when my husband was alive. I can hardly remember anything good,except for the first few years after we got married. The fact that I have Baha'u'llah doesn't magically change hell into heaven.
But we are only visitors to this world. One day we will move on to another existence so no suffering here is permanent.
But that does not help me and people like me now.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's true that this is faith based, but I do have faith in the words of Baha'u'llah.
I am happy for you, but as I told an agnostic poster yesterday, I am from Missouri so I'll believe it when I see it, which will probably not be until I go to the next world. :(
O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 328)
I was going to post that passage on Reddit for discussion but I don't want to argue with a bunch of Baha'i apologists.

It says: "You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter..." so what about people who never attain that in this world? You cannot believe that passage is literally true.
I don't know why a person is here if for material reasons he cannot grow spiritually. Maybe for those people adjacent to him or her? Another thought is that this is all a random draw of luck because of the material world, that is my scientific part saying that.
There is a lot we don't know and I am okay with not knowing. What bothers me are the all-knowing Baha'is who believe they do know.
That says it right there. We must be kind. Of course we should also be kind for pure reasons.
I agree with that and that is what I always try to do, no matter how bad I am feeling.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, even the Bab grieved for months:
That's right. And let's not forget how Shoghi Effendi grieved after Abdu'l-Baha's demise. That is what people do when they are very sad. It is normal to grieve the loss of those you love. That is what I learned in the Christian GriefShare group I attended.

Only Baha'is expect people to be happy when their loved one dies, and then they quote the following.

O Son of the Supreme! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?​

I saved what you wrote to me before when that Baha'i woman in my community sent me the Hidden Word above. Here it is:

O Son of Blindness! I made death to thee as glad tidings: How is it that thou art in despair at its approach? I made the knowledge to thee a lamp; How is it thou art hiding thyself from it? [K]​
O Son of the Unseen Spiritual Kingdom ! I made death as glad tidings for thee. How is it that thou despairest at its approach? I gave thee enlightenment to guide thee. How is it that thou veilest thyself from it? [R]​

These parallel translations seem to point to sadness at one's own approaching death, not sadness at someone else’s death.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You believe what you've been told uncritically. You've been told that whatever this god says or does is moral and doing or believing otherwise is immoral. The critical thinker approaches it from the other direction. He looks at the actions attributed to the god and makes his moral judgments from them as he would for any other actor, that is, he examines the evidence impartially and draws conclusions from them. You begin with an unfounded premise believed by faith and then evaluate those actions. Not surprisingly, they're all divine.

What you haven't done that is also commonly part of this process is to then reverse engineer an argument using faulty reasoning connecting the evidence to your premise now presented as a conclusion derived from that evidence - what I call a pseudo-conclusion. These are the people who say things like, "The whole world is evidence of God." They didn't use that evidence - the world - to conclude that it must be the work of a god. They accepted that on faith and then created that weak argument where God is presented as a pseudo-conclusion rather than the premise it is.

Do you remember all of the post I wrote you about restricted choice as an argument against the existence of an interventionist god? It was a series of inactions. Here's one of them, which also refers to an earlier one covering the same topic. It's a series of observations of how things could have been otherwise in a universe with such a god, but not in one without that god. Their cumulative effect shows how this god is indistinguishable from its nonexistence. Recall that a perfectly loaded coin can only land one way (restricted choice), but a fair coin can be heads or tails. No single coin toss can identify a loaded coin, but the cumulative effect of getting the same outcome every time points to aloaded coin. We can do the same with gods.

You must be describing personal experience. My experience has been very different. I judge the quality of my belief set by its ability to predict outcomes. My map of the world by which I navigate it contains a collection of empirically confirmed ideas, or beliefs as you call them here. They have served me well.

If you believe things that you "can never actually know," you are making the logical error of belief by faith, and one is often accepting a false or unfalsifiable belief. THAT can be trouble. And yes, if you promote such a belief to critical thinkers, you will be asked to defend it according to the academic (legal, scientific) rules of interpreting evidence, which will be impossible and uncomfortable. The problem there is not belief, but belief by faith.
I believe what God tells me.

An evil person making judgment about good and evil has no credibility.

I believe that is false.

I believe your experience does not negate mine and may simply reveal that your experience is insufficient.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

I have a comment about this. For a Baha's do they believe that God really said this? Because we know it was written by a man... a man claiming to be a prophet named Isaiah. And, as is often said, God is not a human and doesn't have hands, eyes, ears or a mouth? Then did God really say anything.

The other problem is how can this one verse be taken literally and not other similar verses? Like verses in Revelation 22... verse 7 “Look, I am coming soon! verse 12 “Look, I am coming soon! verse 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony verse 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

How can we trust whoever this writer of Revelation was really got this stuff from an angel and then Jesus himself? Gotta be consistent. Baha'is can't pick a verse out and make it literal, then take others and make them symbolic. Which is why I have a problem with how Baha'is take the virgin birth literally true and the resurrection story symbolic.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It says: "You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter..." so what about people who never attain that in this world? You cannot believe that passage is literally true.
I thank you for pointing out the words "in this world" which I had overlooked. That gives me something to ponder. I prefer for reality to be pointed out to me even if it goes against what I had thought before. How else can I find out out more of the truth? "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace." Is this specific to the person Baha'u'llah addressed in this Tablet, and not in general to everybody? Do you think that you personally have partaken in this world any at all of the benefits, etc. of these holy and spiritually glorious worlds? In light of the rest of the passage, I expect there will be days "of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you." Those days just won't be in this world. If you have had any at all the portion in this world of the spiritual benefits of these worlds they have been small.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I thank you for pointing out the words "in this world" which I had overlooked. That gives me something to ponder. I prefer for reality to be pointed out to me even if it goes against what I had thought before. How else can I find out out more of the truth? "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace." Is this specific to the person Baha'u'llah addressed in this Tablet, and not in general to everybody? Do you think that you personally have partaken in this world any at all of the benefits, etc. of these holy and spiritually glorious worlds? In light of the rest of the passage, I expect there will be days "of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you." Those days just won't be in this world. If you have had any at all the portion in this world of the spiritual benefits of these worlds they have been small.
Let's look at the passage in its entirety.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

I don't think this is this specific to one person Baha'u'llah addressed in this Tablet since it starts out with "O My servants!"

"Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace."


This part makes no sense to me. "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious" is not referring to this world. We are destined to partake of the benefits of the "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious" which have not yet been unveiled to our eyes, but that cannot refer to THIS world, since this world has been unveiled before our eyes. So why does He say "in this world and hereafter"? Do you understand the problem? I have been reading and posting this passage for a long time and I always thought it meant I would be getting some of the benefits in this worldeventually. I guess I have been waiting for nothing. :(


No, I do not think that I have personally partaken in this world any at all of the benefits, etc. of these holy and spiritually glorious worlds since I think that refers to the spiritual worlds we will partake of after we leave this world.

No, I have not partaken of the spiritual benefits of these holy and spiritually glorious worlds. I have only partaken of the spiritual benefits of THIS world.

Is this your way of saying that I have not partaken of the spiritual benefits of this world? After all the suffering I have endured I should be the most spiritual person on earth, if Abdu'l-Baha is right about suffering making us more spiritual! ;)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't think this is this specific to one person Baha'u'llah addressed in this Tablet since it starts out with "O My servants!"
That dashes that theory.
"Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace."

This part makes no sense to me. "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious" is not referring to this world. We are destined to partake of the benefits of the "Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious" which have not yet been unveiled to our eyes, but that cannot refer to THIS world, since this world has been unveiled before our eyes. So why does He say "in this world and hereafter"? Do you understand the problem? I have been reading and posting this passage for a long time and I always thought it meant I would be getting some of the benefits in this worldeventually. I guess I have been waiting for nothing. :(
There is no reason why, in my opinion, people cannot partake of those worlds here as well as the hereafter.

This being not the case, however, it must necessarily follow that the world in which thou livest is different and apart from that which thou hast experienced in thy dream. This latter world hath neither beginning nor end. It would be true if thou wert to contend that this same world is, as decreed by the All-Glorious and Almighty God, within thy proper self and is wrapped up within thee. It would equally be true to maintain that thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world. Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 152)

The benefits etc, you would get would be from all the worlds of God. Where do you think spirituality comes from?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is no reason why, in my opinion, people cannot partake of those worlds here as well as the hereafter.

This being not the case, however, it must necessarily follow that the world in which thou livest is different and apart from that which thou hast experienced in thy dream. This latter world hath neither beginning nor end. It would be true if thou wert to contend that this same world is, as decreed by the All-Glorious and Almighty God, within thy proper self and is wrapped up within thee. It would equally be true to maintain that thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world. Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 152)
Baha'u'llah was referring to dreams. That is not the same thing as 'being in the other worlds' that will be unveiled after we die.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

You remind me of Christians who interpret verses to mean what they want them to mean, even when they don't mean that. :D
The benefits etc, you would get would be from all the worlds of God. Where do you think spirituality comes from?
Spirituality comes from living in 'this world' as long as we are living in this world. I don't know what will happen after we are no longer living in this world, nobody does.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
This being not the case, however, it must necessarily follow that the world in which thou livest is different and apart from that which thou hast experienced in thy dream. This latter world hath neither beginning nor end. It would be true if thou wert to contend that this same world is, as decreed by the All-Glorious and Almighty God, within thy proper self and is wrapped up within thee. It would equally be true to maintain that thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world. Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 152)
Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this valley can comprehend in their reality. First, what is this world where without eye or ear or hand or tongue one can put all these to use? Second, how is it that in the outer world thou seest today the effect of a dream which thou didst witness in the world of sleep some ten years past? Consider the difference between these two worlds, and the mysteries they conceal, that, attended by divine confirmations, thou mayest attain unto heavenly discoveries and enter the realms of holiness.

God, the Most High, hath placed these signs in men so that veiled minds might not deny the mysteries of the life beyond, nor belittle that which hath been promised them. For some hold fast to reason and deny whatever reason comprehendeth not, and yet feeble minds can never grasp the reality of the stages that we have related: The universal divine Intellect alone can comprehend them.

How can feeble reason embrace the Qur’án
Or the spider snare a phoenix in its web?⁠

All these states are to be found and witnessed in the Valley of Wonderment, wherein the wayfarer at every moment seeketh for more and is not wearied. Thus the Lord of the first and the last,⁠ in setting forth the grades of contemplation and expressing bewilderment, hath said: “Increase my wonder and amazement at Thee, O ⁠God!” The Prophet Muḥammad.From a Ḥadíth.

Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou deem thyself a small and puny form,
When thou foldest within thyself the greater world?

Bahá’u’lláh, "The Call of the Divine Beloved", 2.67
 
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Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.
God sacrificed Himself in the form of Jesus so that we could have a path to eternity in Heaven.

Not sure how much more loving you can get than that.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
God sacrificed Himself in the form of Jesus so that we could have a path to eternity in Heaven.

Not sure how much more loving you can get than that.
Nice story, but it doesn't add up.

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psalms 40:6
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God sacrificed Himself in the form of Jesus so that we could have a path to eternity in Heaven.

Not sure how much more loving you can get than that.
First, God is eternal, so God cannot die, so that means God made no sacrifices that demonstrates He is loving.
Second, it was Jesus who sacrificed Himself, not God.
Thirdly, if Jesus rose from the dead and came back to life after three days, that was only a minor inconvenience, not a sacrifice.

Fourthly, and most importantly, it is hard for any rational person to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering in this world.
To try to blame humans for all the suffering because of "the fall" of Adam and Eve is not only unjust, it is nonsensical. Humans have free will so some of their suffering is brought on by their own choices, but much of the suffering that humans endure is not by choice, it is by fate, which is God's will.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Kind of like the rest of Christianity. ;)
The Gospel of Thomas has some clues, though, for those with ears to hear.

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 55:3

I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
Psalms 49:4
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
First, God is eternal, so God cannot die, so that means God made no sacrifices that demonstrates He is loving.
Second, it was Jesus who sacrificed Himself, not God.
Thirdly, if Jesus rose from the dead and came back to life after three days, that was only a minor inconvenience, not a sacrifice.

Fourthly, and most importantly, it is hard for any rational person to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering in this world.
To try to blame humans for all the suffering because of "the fall" of Adam and Eve is not only unjust, it is nonsensical. Humans have free will so some of their suffering is brought on by their own choices, but much of the suffering that humans endure is not by choice, it is by fate, which is God's will.

You need to study what the trinity is.

And it's not whether or not he was raised, it's about the punishment He endured for us.
 
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