Cooking Knives

[dantech]

Hey guys,
I'm looking into buying some new knives for the kitchen but I don't know much about them.

First, what budget do you suggest for home cooks who do use knives every other day.

Right now, the ones I use most are the Santoku knife, and the Chef's knife, but my set isn't that good, and it's not so sharp. I tried sharpening them, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Any experienced chefs or cooks have suggestions? Should I get a whole set? or just the two I use? and what should my budget be?

 

[LuisDantas]

Have you tried ceramic knives? I love them.

 

[dantech]

Have you tried ceramic knives? I love them.

I have. They're good, but when you try and chop anything that's a little bit harder, they chip. When that happens, you need to throw all the food away because it's almost impossible to find that peace of ceramic in your food.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is that.

 

[Buttercup]

The best knives I've ever used are from Cutco, but they're expensive. I expect to keep them for the rest of my life, though and I've had them for 20 years already.

CUTCO Cutlery & Vector Marketing: Kitchen knives, block sets, utensils

 

[Sees]

I'm a big time knife guy and also cook a lot...only use Victorinox kitchen knives. Really affordable and easy to get on Amazon or elsewhere. I do almost everything with a chef's knife just like this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000638D32?pc_redir=1411424825&robot_redir=1

Also have a few paring knives, bread knife, "utility", etc. all Victorinox.

You could spend $100+++ on some Japanese knives with extra edge retention, more perfect blade geometry, etc. but it depends on what you do, maintenance habits, skill level, and so on. Lots of cooking schools and big time restaurants just go ahead and grab Victorinox because they are better than most that cost double and easy to keep clean and sharp, safe to handle, cheap to replace, etc.

 

[Valjean]

I never eat out. I do all my own cooking and a chef's knife is really all I ever need.

Ceramic: This material is very hard, so it will potentially hold an edge longer than a softer steel knife.However -- and this is a big however -- they're both very brittle and very hard to sharpen. It doesn't take much to chip the edge and you'll need special equipment to sharpen it.

Sharpening: All knives must be sharpened regularly. A dull knife is hard to use and does a poor job. Professional chefs sharpen them up several times a day. Me, I can go two or three days between sharpenings.

You really need to learn to sharpen a knife, Dantech. It's a basic life skill, like tying your shoes or reading. If you can't master stones and steels, there are all sorts of "automatic" and easy-peasy sharpening devices on the market. I've heard some of them do a tolerable job.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I have a couple of kitchen knives that i keep in good knick.

1 x Chefs Knife
1 x Santoku
1 x Filleting knife

I use a diamond coated sharpening stone i got from a hardware store (meant to sharpen chisels) that i use once every couple of months to sharpen my knives. I learnt to sharpen knives off of youtube.

I have a sharpening steel as well. If you want to keep you knives as sharp for as long as possible you will use it before you start cutting.

As far as the brand goes, my best ones cost me $100 - $150 which are great. My santoku is a cheap wilthshire one i bought from the supermarket and it is great. Does tend to go blunt a little bit quicker than the others but it is cheaper and because of the design does get used more often.

So buy yourself a diamond coated sharpening stone and a steel, give them a little attention and preparing food will become a pleasure.

 

[Valjean]

I doubt that an ordinary householder will find much difference between a high end and moderately priced knife. I have a rarely used "Old Hickory" boning knife that couldn't have cost more than five bucks, but the steel is remarkably tough and quite hard.

Sometimes cheap knives have soft and/or poorly tempered steel. They don't hold an edge well but, on the other hand, it only takes a couple strokes to sharpen them.

 

[Amechania]

I use Karate for all my chopping needs. For fine slicing; Kung Fu.

 

[Thief]

Hey guys,
I'm looking into buying some new knives for the kitchen but I don't know much about them.

First, what budget do you suggest for home cooks who do use knives every other day.

Right now, the ones I use most are the Santoku knife, and the Chef's knife, but my set isn't that good, and it's not so sharp. I tried sharpening them, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Any experienced chefs or cooks have suggestions? Should I get a whole set? or just the two I use? and what should my budget be?

Chicago cutlery.
Mid range price.....get the set with a butcher's steel.

Stroke the blades away from you.
Do so before each use.
Rinse in running water to remove micro shavings BEFORE use.

Sharpen the edge on stone only if the blade fails altogether.
Push the edge away from you.
Teach your left hand the SAME stroke as your right hand.
Then go back to the butcher's steel to finish.

(toolmaker/knifemaker)

btw....high carbon is rare nowadays and does rust......stainless steel is more common but won't stay sharp.
Trade off.

 

[Valjean]

Stainless isn't a single alloy. It can be made with whatever qualities are needed. Also keep in mind there's sometimes an inverse relationship between ease of sharpening and edge retention. Some cutlery formulations like CPM540V are hard enough to need diamond powder to properly sharpen.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Hey guys,
I'm looking into buying some new knives for the kitchen but I don't know much about them.

First, what budget do you suggest for home cooks who do use knives every other day.

Everyday usage doesn't factor into price in so straightforward a way. Several years ago William Henry Knives came out with a series of kitchen knife sets (although the individuals could be purchased as well) which were essentially all the same: the length of the equivalent knives in the different sets were identical, they all had a zdp-189 core, they all had the same edge geometry, the same balance, etc. However, the cheapest set of the 5 kitchen knives (in which the paring knife, if ordered individually, was ~$200) didn't have the decorative factory made Damascus look created by many thin layers of 420 stainless steel, just a 420 outer shell. 420 stainless steel is generally junk steel, but in this case it was used the way that many a carry knife, tactical knife, or workhorse blade rely upon powdered coats or similar protective coverings that are basically a kind of paint. So using actual steel as a protective "coat" is very much high end.

There is, however, a certain aesthetic issue that arises with high-end kitchen knives. I have a ~$700 dollar chef's knife hand-made from Japan. However, it is not stainless, and thus I can either wipe it after using it for a minute or two or I can see it look like a rusted piece of junk. The discolorations aren't actually rust nor do they affect the quality of the blade, but they do look ugly.

However, if you don't want to spend hundreds for a single knife, then go with one of the higher-end companies like Shun or Zhen knives that use high-end stainless steels such as vg-10 as a core.

For kitchen knives, you want a stainless steel that can be hardened to 60+ on the Rockwell scale (unless we are talking cleavers). Hardness means they can retain an edge longer, but it makes a knife more brittle which is why machetes, tactical knives, etc., are typically hardened to 57-59: they are used on hard materials like wood or bone, used with great force, and therefore must have more "give" or they will chip. Big name brands like Cutco use poor-quality steels and a lot of advertising.

Steels aren't everything though. Good manufacturing/forging and proper treatment can make a knife with 440a steel superior to S30V. Wusthof uses pretty poor blade steels, but the quality manufacturing and heat treatment makes these knives a good deal.

You can get a good chef's knife for not much over $100. However, if you want to get your money's worth then you need to know how to treat it (buy SpyderCo's Sharpmaker, don't throw it in with other kitchenware like utensils that can chip it, maintain the edge by sharpening it frequently but for very short periods and with the sapphire rods of the Sharpmaker or similarly fine-grit sharpeners so that you remove the least steel while ensuring the edge geometry remains unchanged).

Otherwise, buy cheap ceramic knives and throw them away as soon as they begin to get dull or break/chip.

I tried sharpening them, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Sharpening is a bit of an art. First, you need a good sharpener. The best is probably the Edge Pro system, but it is outrageously expensive when you compare how much better it is than the Sharpmaker to their respective prices. If you don't use sharpeners which determine the angle you use, you should know these and be able to sharpen using them. Also, never use a sharpening kit/system that has only one "grit".

Any experienced chefs or cooks have suggestions? Should I get a whole set? or just the two I use? and what should my budget be?

It is far better to get two high-quality knives (generally a chef's knife and a knife akin to a paring knife but longer) or whatever two knives you use most often and rely on cheaper junk for the rest.

 

[Thief]

Stainless isn't a single alloy. It can be made with whatever qualities are needed. Also keep in mind there's sometimes an inverse relationship between ease of sharpening and edge retention. Some cutlery formulations like CPM540V are hard enough to need diamond powder to properly sharpen.

Toolmaker here.....
I see you know some classification numbers!....good for you!

I've cut the alloy with carbide and milling machines.....tough stuff!
and I have a pocket knife made in China having a blade of such material.

For the occasional use of a pocket knife......it's good.
and yes it's a bit difficult to resharpen.

But kitchen ware is work stuff.
For my money the higher carbon content is the way to go.
You do have to wipe it dry.....shame on you for the rust.

Still though....most cutlery is not labeled sufficiently in the box.
Advice comes from people (like me) who spend their lives cutting steel.

The cpm's are tough!!!!!
but toughness takes from resistance to fine wear.
The edge is all that matters for a knife.
You don't want to spend yourself prepping for the cut.
It just needs to be there....when you want it.

So, high carbon and a little care...is the way to go.
I like it!

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Stainless isn't a single alloy.

True. There isn't even a single "family" or "class" of stainless steels, but several: ferritic, austenitic, martensitic, and duplex (a combination/hybrid of ferritic & austenitic). Actually, these are the "families" of stainless steals classified by microstructure. Precipitation-hardening stainless steels are generally considered a 5th family. There are subclasses of these 5, too.

On the other hand, almost all corrosion resistant/stainless steels are alloys with a (relatively) high chromium content. In general, they are defined alloy steels with ~11% chromium content or higher.

It can be made with whatever qualities are needed.

Probably true for all practical purposes, but being the annoying stickler I am I can't help but add some qualifiers. Like any alloying element, the addition of chromium has an effect on the microstructure of stainless steels, including the corrosion resistance for which high levels are added in the first place. Another effect, however, is embrittlement. In general, there is always a trade-off between "toughness" and "hardness", which speaks to this:

Also keep in mind there's sometimes an inverse relationship between ease of sharpening and edge retention.

The "harder" a knife, the greater the edge retention. Any good knife-maker/seller will tell (or already have listed in whatever online or printed catalogue you're looking at) you how "hard" the blade of a particular knife is on the Rockwell scale. Tactical knives, workhorse blades (e.g., high end machetes or other knives that are large and used to chop brush or other high-impact purposes), most hunting knives, etc., typically are hardened to between 55-57 RC to 57-58 RC.

It is possible to take just about any steel and harden it to 67RC or more (which is insanely hard). However, there is a reason that the co-developer Chris Reeves of CPM S30V & S35V steels hardens his coveted
Green Beret tactical fixed blade to 55-57 RC, and many kitchen knife made from inferior steel is ~60 RC: the harder something is the more brittle it is. The RC scale itself is based upon diamonds, the hardest naturally occurring substance, meaning it will cut pretty much anything but you can shatter it with an iron hammer.

Likewise, the harder the knife's edge, the more likely it is to shatter. Different steels that are just as "hard", though, are not equally brittle. Thus kitchen knives and some pocket knives hardened to 67 RC are just as "tough" as kitchen knives made from 440C, VG-10, CPM-S30V, 154CM, etc., but are much harder and therefore keep an edge much longer.

Chromium embrittlement itself is classified into e.g. 475c embrittlement (c = degrees Celsius), sigma phase embrittlement, etc. Basically, the addition of the amount of Chromium necessary for a stainless steel allows the formation of precipitate phases in a particular alloy that are structurally "weaker" or more simply are brittle.

More generally, the mechanism whereby the addition of chromium creates a corrosion resistant alloy is passivation or the ability for surface layers to form into an impermeable film that isn't possible with other alloys. However, this mechanism creates the possibility for various structural corrosion, and in particular stress corrosion cracking (SCC). There is some debate over the exact nature of the mechanisms underlying SCC in stainless steels, but the important point is that the addition of Chromium has a variety of effects not only on what precipitate phases can occur when the steel is formed but also how it will react to thermal, chemical, and mechanical variables.

For example, anybody familiar with knife-making or blacksmithing in general is almost certainly familiar with heat-treating as well as quenching. Both (related) processes are central to "hardening". Ferrite stainless steals can't be heat-treated. Martensitic stainless steels, which include perhaps the most common blade steels (the 440 series- a, b, & c), can be heat treated. However, there is still a limit to their strength "range" that hardening and tempering allow.

Just like the trade-off with hardness vs. toughness, there is in general a trade-off between corrosion resistance and structural integrity.

Some cutlery formulations like CPM540V are hard enough to need diamond powder to properly sharpen.

Spyderco's Sharpmaker comes with two sets of sharpening rods. The first pair are made of the same material your regular, ol' pocket-knife sharpener is. The second are artificial sapphire. They are extremely hard, but
1) not as hard as diamonds
&
2) very fine.

They'll cut any steel, but unlike most diamond sharpeners they won't strip away too much steel in the process. Blades aren't typically very "hard" (or, in the case of differentially treated blades like traditional Samurai swords, the edge isn't very hard) relative to numerous other materials including standard grinding/sharpening stones. It's just that high-end blades tempered/hardened to ~60 RC or more can take an insane amount of time to sharpen using your average stone. That said, there are plenty of high-end, cutting-edge (bad pun intended) stones & rods that are better than diamond sharpeners, last longer, are more forgiving, and improve the longevity of your blade.

 

[Revoltingest]

My favorite knives are old fashioned plain carbon steel knives.
They can rust, but that isn't a problem if one washes them by hand,
which should be done even for stainless steel knives. They sharpen
easily, hold an edge well, & can be found at yard sales & thrift stores.
I found a 12" Sabatier at a garage sale once for 50 cents. But they
can be found on ebay for $20-$30...still a bargain.

Want the best? Traditional Japanese knives are very spendy ($100+
for good ones), but they're very hard (60 Rockwell C), much more so
than pricey Wusthof or Henckels (55 Rockwell C or so). They're used
by sushi chefs, who need the sharpest knives possible.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

True. There isn't even a single "family" or "class" of stainless steels, but several: ferritic, austenitic, martensitic, and duplex (a combination/hybrid of ferritic & austenitic). Actually, these are the "families" of stainless steals classified by microstructure. Precipitation-hardening stainless steels are generally considered a 5th family. There are subclasses of these 5, too.

On the other hand, almost all corrosion resistant/stainless steels are alloys with a (relatively) high chromium content. In general, they are defined alloy steels with ~11% chromium content or higher.


Probably true for all practical purposes, but being the annoying stickler I am I can't help but add some qualifiers. Like any alloying element, the addition of chromium has an effect on the microstructure of stainless steels, including the corrosion resistance for which high levels are added in the first place. Another effect, however, is embrittlement. In general, there is always a trade-off between "toughness" and "hardness", which speaks to this:



The "harder" a knife, the greater the edge retention. Any good knife-maker/seller will tell (or already have listed in whatever online or printed catalogue you're looking at) you how "hard" the blade of a particular knife is on the Rockwell scale. Tactical knives, workhorse blades (e.g., high end machetes or other knives that are large and used to chop brush or other high-impact purposes), most hunting knives, etc., typically are hardened to between 55-57 RC to 57-58 RC.

It is possible to take just about any steel and harden it to 67RC or more (which is insanely hard). However, there is a reason that the co-developer Chris Reeves of CPM S30V & S35V steels hardens his coveted
Green Beret tactical fixed blade to 55-57 RC, and many kitchen knife made from inferior steel is ~60 RC: the harder something is the more brittle it is. The RC scale itself is based upon diamonds, the hardest naturally occurring substance, meaning it will cut pretty much anything but you can shatter it with an iron hammer.

Likewise, the harder the knife's edge, the more likely it is to shatter. Different steels that are just as "hard", though, are not equally brittle. Thus kitchen knives and some pocket knives hardened to 67 RC are just as "tough" as kitchen knives made from 440C, VG-10, CPM-S30V, 154CM, etc., but are much harder and therefore keep an edge much longer.

Chromium embrittlement itself is classified into e.g. 475c embrittlement (c = degrees Celsius), sigma phase embrittlement, etc. Basically, the addition of the amount of Chromium necessary for a stainless steel allows the formation of precipitate phases in a particular alloy that are structurally "weaker" or more simply are brittle.

More generally, the mechanism whereby the addition of chromium creates a corrosion resistant alloy is passivation or the ability for surface layers to form into an impermeable film that isn't possible with other alloys. However, this mechanism creates the possibility for various structural corrosion, and in particular stress corrosion cracking (SCC). There is some debate over the exact nature of the mechanisms underlying SCC in stainless steels, but the important point is that the addition of Chromium has a variety of effects not only on what precipitate phases can occur when the steel is formed but also how it will react to thermal, chemical, and mechanical variables.

For example, anybody familiar with knife-making or blacksmithing in general is almost certainly familiar with heat-treating as well as quenching. Both (related) processes are central to "hardening". Ferrite stainless steals can't be heat-treated. Martensitic stainless steels, which include perhaps the most common blade steels (the 440 series- a, b, & c), can be heat treated. However, there is still a limit to their strength "range" that hardening and tempering allow.

Just like the trade-off with hardness vs. toughness, there is in general a trade-off between corrosion resistance and structural integrity.




Spyderco's Sharpmaker comes with two sets of sharpening rods. The first pair are made of the same material your regular, ol' pocket-knife sharpener is. The second are artificial sapphire. They are extremely hard, but
1) not as hard as diamonds
&
2) very fine.

They'll cut any steel, but unlike most diamond sharpeners they won't strip away too much steel in the process. Blades aren't typically very "hard" (or, in the case of differentially treated blades like traditional Samurai swords, the edge isn't very hard) relative to numerous other materials including standard grinding/sharpening stones. It's just that high-end blades tempered/hardened to ~60 RC or more can take an insane amount of time to sharpen using your average stone. That said, there are plenty of high-end, cutting-edge (bad pun intended) stones & rods that are better than diamond sharpeners, last longer, are more forgiving, and improve the longevity of your blade.

I wonder if i can get Treks to read this to me in a sexy voice.

RAAAWR

You should right knife porn

 

[Revoltingest]

It is possible to take just about any steel and harden it to 67RC or more (which is insanely hard).

Actually, most common steels (1020, 1018) with 0.2% carbon cannot be hardened by
conventional heat treatment. Look for at 0.4% or more carbon for hardenability.

For example, anybody familiar with knife-making or blacksmithing in general is almost certainly familiar with heat-treating as well as quenching. Both (related) processes are central to "hardening". Ferrite stainless steals can't be heat-treated. Martensitic stainless steels, which include perhaps the most common blade steels (the 440 series- a, b, & c), can be heat treated. However, there is still a limit to their strength "range" that hardening and tempering allow.

I'll add here that many "440" knives are sold, but only 440C is knife worthy (IMO), ie, able to hold a good edge.

Just like the trade-off with hardness vs. toughness, there is in general a trade-off between corrosion resistance and structural integrity.

Corrosion resistance is only an issue for people who want a uniform appearance on
their knives. I actually prefer a knife with a variegated patina. My carbon steel
knives & tools will stain from acidic foods, but they've never rusted.

Spyderco's Sharpmaker comes with two sets of sharpening rods. The first pair are made of the same material your regular, ol' pocket-knife sharpener is. The second are artificial sapphire. They are extremely hard, but
1) not as hard as diamonds
&
2) very fine.

They'll cut any steel, but unlike most diamond sharpeners they won't strip away too much steel in the process. Blades aren't typically very "hard" (or, in the case of differentially treated blades like traditional Samurai swords, the edge isn't very hard) relative to numerous other materials including standard grinding/sharpening stones. It's just that high-end blades tempered/hardened to ~60 RC or more can take an insane amount of time to sharpen using your average stone. That said, there are plenty of high-end, cutting-edge (bad pun intended) stones & rods that are better than diamond sharpeners, last longer, are more forgiving, and improve the longevity of your blade.

I find hard knife & tool surfaces easy to sharpen, but only with proper use of a quality
"stone". Diamond is great for shaping the knife/tool. Japanese wet stones & ceramic
stones are great for putting on the edge. In between sharpenings, a steel can be used
to "set" an edge, but do not use these with very hard knives, eg, ceramic, Japanese knives.
I don't like spending time sharpening things, so I keep cheap stainless knives away from
Mrs Revolt.

Caution: Never use a high speed grinding wheel to sharpen any knife. It will heat the edge
to the point of annealing (softening) steel, & create an edge structure which will dull quickly.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

For my money the higher carbon content is the way to go.
You do have to wipe it dry.....shame on you for the rust.

High-carbon steels are those with roughly .5% or more. A common high-carbon, non-stainless blade steel like 1095 has ~1%. ZDP-189 has 3%. A common kitchen knife typically has between 16% & 18% carbon. ZDP-189 has 20%. It is a stainless steel with more carbon than any high-carbon steel I know of.

Advice comes from people (like me) who spend their lives cutting steel.

Sure. But it also comes from manufactures of steels and those who make blades (frequently not the same). After all, a good smith can take an inferior steel and do wonders with it. Likewise, any beginner can order and expensive, high-end blade steel from e.g., Admiral Steel and create a knife that will shatter like glass, look like junk, and can't cut anything harder than butter.

but toughness takes from resistance to fine wear.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, in particular what "takes from" means. The property "toughness" refers to a blades resistance to fracture (chipping, cracking, etc.) and deformation (compare a broadsword to a rapier- the latter can bend where the former would break). However, toughness results from a certain elasticity and thus giving a "tough" knife a razor-thin edge will just result in bending it. Wear-resistance refers to resistance to abrasive corrosion, and like hardness is key for a knife to retain its edge. However, unlike hardness, it does not have so direct an inverse relationship with toughness.

The edge is all that matters for a knife.

All that matters for cutting, perhaps. Personally, I appreciate quality grips in any knife, and in kitchen knives the kind that allow me to easily grip with minimal strain and maximal flexibility while better ensuring my hand doesn't slip forward along the blade's edge (thus slicing through my fingers). There are a number of other factors as well. Some knife-makers, borrowing from traditional Japanese sword-making, differentially heat treat/temper their blades. Generally, they allow the edge and the rest of the blade to cool at a different rate, but whatever the means the result is that the edge has a hardness of ~60 RC while the rest of the blade is about ~40 RC. This allows the sword to be flexible, bending slightly instead of breaking on impact, but ensures they sword can hold (and keep) a razor-sharp edge.

So, high carbon and a little care...is the way to go.

More than a little care. My ungodly expensive kitchen knife is from a custom-made high-carbon steel and the blade is hand-forged. It's a beautiful peace, but it isn't stainless. If I am carving a turkey or slicing a roast, I need to wipe it down a few times a minute. It takes almost no time for a non-stainless steel knife to begin to look like rusted garbage. It will remain a quality knife in terms of performance, but improper care in one use can result in a blade which looks like this:

or this:

 

[Revoltingest]

I think there's a decimal point or two which ought'a be a little to the left on the carbon content of
those kitchen knives. (16% carbon would result in free graphite formations in an iron matrix.)
Ya know, if you'd just accept that discoloration, all your troubles would vanish. My old plain carbon
Sabatiers were antiques when I bought'm over 30 years ago, & they're holding up well.