Cooking Knives

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Actually, most common steels (1020, 1018) with 0.2% carbon cannot be hardened by
conventional heat treatment. Look for at 0.4% or more carbon for hardenability.

I've been out-nuanced and over-technified! I meant "common blade steels", and thus almost always "high carbon". Even 420 steels can be heat treated thanks to their alloying elements (including 420j, which I believe is actually low-carbon, ~1.5%).

I'll add here that many "440" knives are sold, but only 440C is knife worthy (IMO), ie, able to hold a good edge.

Good point. And for those who were sold or bought some several hundred dollar (or even a couple thousand dollar) CUTCO knife set, they're made from 440a. True, they are superior to a lot of 440c knives thanks to blade geometry and heat treating, but they aren't worth what you pay for them.

Corrosion resistance is only an issue for people who want a uniform appearance on their knives.

Not just they, as after all certain tool steels are stainless or semi-stainless (D-2, M-2, etc.). But you're right, of course, as I pointed out above: the images shown and ones that look far worse are only corroded on the surface. They will perform just as well they did before such discolorations. And some people (usually old-fogies who've been using tools and knives since before I was born and who have an engineering background) prefer the "authentic"-look that non-stainless kitchen knives almost always end up with (of course, "authentic" and related terms are just ways of indicating that one is resistant to change and prefers the "old-fashioned, rusted" appearance because they're old fashioned and fear novelty ).

My carbon steel knives & tools will stain from acidic foods, but they've never rusted.

Most tools, though, are coated. Also, as I said above many tool steels contain fairly high levels of Chromium and usually other alloy elements (esp. Molybdenum & Nickel) which are added (at least in part) for greater corrosive resistance. The 10xx series is alone in that steels like 1050, 1055, 1095, etc. are frequently used as blade steels but this series is has virtually nothing other than iron and carbon. KA-BAR knives are often if not always 1095 high carbon, as are knives from TOPS and a number of relatively high-end blade manufacturers. However, these are all coated so that any corrosion is limited to the edge and is removed simply by sharpening.

I find hard knife & tool surfaces easy to sharpen, but only with proper use of a quality "stone". Diamond is great for shaping the knife/tool. Japanese wet stones & ceramic stones are great for putting on the edge. In between sharpenings, a steel can be used to "set" an edge, but do not use these with very hard knives, eg, ceramic, Japanese knives.

I've heard (and once tried) "steeling" and went back to the far safer use of a shaving crop, but using "steel" to "set" an edge? Do you mean those steel rods that come with every carving set (or used to; we had two, both which included steak knives, the carving fork, naturally the knife, and that steel straightener). I think they might even be called straighteners. Is this what you mean? The great thing about some sharpeners is that they use rods that also straighten the blade. The disadvantage is that most of these have set angles and many people like to set their own.

Caution: Never use a high speed grinding wheel to sharpen any knife. It will heat the edge
to the point of annealing (softening) steel, & create an edge structure which will dull quickly.

Great point. Another thing I should have mentioned (but didn't).

 

[Thief]

I think there's a decimal point or two which ought'a be a little to the left on the carbon content of
those kitchen knives. (16% carbon would result in free graphite formations in an iron matrix.)
Ya know, if you'd just accept that discoloration, all your troubles would vanish. My old plain carbon
Sabatiers were antiques when I bought'm over 30 years ago, & they're holding up well.

Attaboy!.....Revolt!

Carbon can be suspended up to a certain percentage of the melting pot.
More that that and the carbon will 'dirty' the smelt.

My a2 tool steel blades aren't for cooking and they do stain.
(something nasty in tomatoes!....and blood!)
But as you have stated....it's not the stain that counts.

 

[Revoltingest]

Steels (the round rods with grooves) will pull deform an edge of a soft to medium hard knife
to make it sharper, but after a few of these applications, it will need to be shaped by a stone.
And, yes, stropping will improve this edge.

Using too coarse a stone will leave little pointy components, much like micro-saw teeth. But
these bend or break off quickly, & thus won't hold an edge as long as a smooth edge, which
looks like a little line of a mirror at the edge. If you can easily shave off hairs from your arm,
you have a good edge.

I've had fun being a jerk, poking at little points of contention!

 

[Revoltingest]

Attaboy!.....Revolt!

Carbon can be suspended up to a certain percentage of the melting pot.
More that that and the carbon will 'dirty' the smelt.

My a2 tool steel blades aren't for cooking and they do stain.
(something nasty in tomatoes!....and blood!)
But as you have stated....it's not the stain that counts.

In Damascus style blades, they're even purposely etched so the "staining" brings
out the layered structure. And these are the spendiest ($1000+) knives of all.

I lost my new Benchmade carry knife earlier this year.
I'm still p****d about it.

 

[roger1440]

Hey guys,
I'm looking into buying some new knives for the kitchen but I don't know much about them.

First, what budget do you suggest for home cooks who do use knives every other day.

Right now, the ones I use most are the Santoku knife, and the Chef's knife, but my set isn't that good, and it's not so sharp. I tried sharpening them, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Any experienced chefs or cooks have suggestions? Should I get a whole set? or just the two I use? and what should my budget be?

I use the 4 star henckels knives. They ain't cheap. I been using them for about 30 years. I have six of them. Each one I bought separate. A set would have cost less. I have the three pictured here plus three others.

 

[roger1440]

Chicago cutlery.
Mid range price.....get the set with a butcher's steel.

Stroke the blades away from you.
Do so before each use.
Rinse in running water to remove micro shavings BEFORE use.

Sharpen the edge on stone only if the blade fails altogether.
Push the edge away from you.
Teach your left hand the SAME stroke as your right hand.
Then go back to the butcher's steel to finish.

(toolmaker/knifemaker)

btw....high carbon is rare nowadays and does rust......stainless steel is more common but won't stay sharp.
Trade off.

Thief is right. They are good knifes too. Many years ago I had bought a set of four steak knifes for my sister for Christmas. I'm a knife kind of guy, LOL

 

[Amechania]

Look a knife's a knife. As long as its sharp it doesn't matter one whit who made it. You either know how to use it or you don't.

 

[roger1440]

Look a knife's a knife. As long as its sharp it doesn't matter one whit who made it. You either know how to use it or you don't.

Let me guess. You are neither a professional cook or chef. True?

 

[Amechania]

Are you? Do you prepare dozens of meals a day where the quality of your knives might make any difference at all?

 

[roger1440]

Are you? Do you prepare dozens of meals a day where the quality of your knives might make any difference at all?

Gee lady, dozens of meals would be a slow day.

Check this out:

chef seeks work

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you? Do you prepare dozens of meals a day where the quality of your knives might make any difference at all?

For me, better knife quality is only a matter of quality of life.
I obsess over that which I notice.
(Groundskeeping is where I find proper edged tools make a big difference.)
On the practical side, Mrs Revolt (who does the cooking) is happy with her cutlery.

 

[Amechania]

I'd hire you but. my company only makes beverages . My point was that the only person who should be concerned iwith the quality of their durable edges is a real chef, such as you. Anyone else is a dilletante and could get by with anything. Good luck man.

 

[Revoltingest]

Who wants to merely "get by" when one can obsess over things that don't matter, but are fun?

 

[Amechania]

Good point, Rev. One I missed apparently.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good point, Rev. One I missed apparently.

Think of all the meaningless opportunities this perspective will open up!

 

[Amechania]

Oh! I'm all aquiver. I'm sure you breathlessly await my next "film" critique.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I think there's a decimal point or two which ought'a be a little to the left on the carbon content of
those kitchen knives. (16% carbon would result in free graphite formations in an iron matrix.)

Nope, worse. I meant to say "chromium". The point was that almost all stainless steels used for knives are "high-carbon". They just have high levels of chromium. I meant to first contrast the carbon content of ZDP-189 with "high-carbon" steels that have low or no chromium and then the chromium content of ZDP-189 with common stainless steels. Hence the 16% should refer to "chromium". The following chart isn't great because it doesn't even include some common blade steels but it contains a great deal of information in one chart in one page: steel chart.

Ya know, if you'd just accept that discoloration, all your troubles would vanish.

I'm stubborn and pig-headed. Is this news?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Of course, if you don't use a knife a lot or you don't maintain the knives you do use, then you can ruin a several hundred dollar knife quite easily. Also, for those who tend not to use knives that are shaving sharp and thus can't see the difference between a knife that was shaving sharp when you started using it for some largish meal preparation and wasn't when you ended vs. one that can retain a razor edge for some time (and of course remain very sharp for far longer). Most cooks don't have adequate sharpening tools, either.

It's one thing to argue that one can cook with crappy knives, and another to say that the quality of the knife doesn't matter. Whether one uses a knife for everyday tasks like opening boxes or cutting through string or rope, for yard work, while camping, or in the kitchen, the fact that certain knives can hold an edge that others knives can't means they can do what they are intended to do better- cut things. I like knives that make easier whatever I use them for and require less maintenance.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Steels (the round rods with grooves) will pull deform an edge of a soft to medium hard knife
to make it sharper, but after a few of these applications, it will need to be shaped by a stone.

I have two sharpening systems that I use (along with various other stones and so forth that aren't part of a system but I might use for particular kinds of blades or to achieve particular results not needed or necessarily wanted for all knives/instances: the Edge Pro and the Sharpmaker. Both of them can be used to restore, re-bevel, even (with additional rods in the case of the latter) re-profile a knife edge. The latter is almost as good as the former, but several hundred dollars less. Both, though, can take a blade that needs reshaping it is so dull to the kind of sharp I require- better than shaving sharp (unless it is the kind of knife that won't cut with such an edge, such as a tactical knife, combat dagger/knife, machete, or any heavy knife with blade geometry for which a razor sharp edge means creating a "shouldering" that prevents the knife from cutting anything intended to).

And, yes, stropping will improve this edge.

I only use stropping for a mirror edge, which I don't typically like on my kitchen knives as it removes those tiny serrations which you can't even see but which will "catch" on the skin of many foodstuffs (especially produce) and cut better than a knife that is sharpened even more finely.

Using too coarse a stone will leave little pointy components, much like micro-saw teeth.

Which is what I prefer for kitchen knives. However, by "little" here I mean you can't see them anymore. It's the difference between a mirror polish so fine it's like glass and one which is still shaving sharp but you can "feel" catch into the skin of a tomato or into chicken and so forth.

But these bend or break off quickly, & thus won't hold an edge as long as a smooth edge, which looks like a little line of a mirror at the edge. If you can easily shave off hairs from your arm, you have a good edge.

I prefer to a modification to the shaving test: if I can slice through the middle of a single hair rather than find the blade bends it, then it is sharp enough. Shaving sharp isn't. Again, though, that has two exceptions: beyond shaving sharp can make a lot of cutting harder for kitchen tasks that one would use smaller kitchen knives for, and knives for very thick knives shaving sharp will often mean the knife won't cut.

I've had fun being a jerk, poking at little points of contention!

But it was so much fun! Spoilsport.

 

[Revoltingest]

I found a pic of the old style Sabatier.

The handle is lighter, & the blade is thinner than modern kitchen knives.
I like this cuz it feels right even on jobs where a smaller knife is the norm.